15-08-2010, 11:09
Doubts about PM
February 4 2009 at 4:17 PM
SvelteCutie (Login SvelteCutie)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well after having a nice post chat with waxingmoon and finding other info on PM I am beginning to wonder if it is worth trying. Not saying it doesn't work, but worried that it may not last and then there's always that looming thought of it throwing hormones out of balance when I am trying my darndest to get things prepped and in harmony before starting NBE.
I found an old post by a girl name Keiko. She's a Dr. in medical biology and the few times I chatted with her online I found her input very helpful. Here's what she had to say about PM.:
I was asked to reproduce an information I posted a while ago. I am NOT a medical doctor, I am a doctor in medical biology (the effects of medicines and other substances and influences on the body and on its metabolism and health), so this is from my professional point of view AND my personal experience with shaping the body:
Hi girls.
I have posted some weeks ago a Pueraria warning here, I say it again: Pueraria is a strong phytoestrogen that HAS IMPORTANT RISKS! Please read my previous message on Pueraria where I explain why what can work just fine in asiatic people grown up on phytoestrogens daily (SOY products as tofu ) can be UNHEALTHY for people grown up with no phytoestrogens at all and mainly on a protein diet.
Also to put a cream of pueraria on the hips will not make difference with to put it on the elbow or on a leg, phytoestrogens have no local effect, only systemic (all body) effect when are absorbed by the blood, Any effect from a phytoestrogen cream is because is absorbed to the blood and there it competes with our own estrogens going to the receptors of the estrogens and mimicking (playing as if it is) real estrogens, which can be dangerous if your body is not made for that. By "made for that" I mean that in asia we grow up (when the body is on the making) with daily doses of phytoestrogens in our food, and we develope a body metabolism for differentiation and use of that, while people on western diets arrive to adulthood (full developed hormonal system and body) with no preparation for how to cope with high dosages of phytoestrogens. This is a scientific fact.
There is also a big difference between estrogens and phytoestrogens: if you get extra estrogens, these incorporate to your own estrogenic flow and simply increase the quantity of estrogens in your body and in consequence may produce hormonal unbalances, elevated risk for cancer and what is worst for our case, masculinization because of what is called estrogen dominance, making us grow moustache and getting belly etc.
Phytoestrogens, when they enter in your system they don't behave as estrogens, they simply go to the receptors (the places that receive our estrogens messsages on how the body must behave and look) and "play" estrogens unloading messages similar to those of estrogens for the body behaves as if having extra estrogens. Because of this difference is that sellers of phytoestrogens say that phytoestrogens have no the risks of estrogens,what is total and absolute lie because phytoestrogens wil not produce cancer risk but will surely induce worst hormonal unbalance not easy to correct later, estrogen dominance syndrom including masculinization of the body shape (even if getting bigger breasts) and will change totally the way your own estrogens behave making these less because the body asssumes are not needed. PHYTOESTROGENS ARE NOT RISKFREE! And as I say again, if your body is not used to handle these, better stay away of the strong ones as Pueararia also called Krow Ka or you may be looking for trouble.
Also I could like to say that the search for the "magic pill" is a chimera which is not possible to achieve by one simply reason: our bodies are complex systems in which each substance is in balance with many others and to change only one substance can only produce UNBALANCE and chaos in the body that will try to cope with the changes as if it is a threat. As a matter of fact, illnesses (or most of them) are either caused by or their first symptom is the unbalance of one thing in your body and that carries the remaining parts down. Also ALL the many second effects of most (if not all) medicines are exactly because they change one thing only.
Our body is a SYSTEM and if you introduce or increase only ONE substance, you are just producing unbalance and not healthy or progressive change, simply as that. This is the reason because a "magic pill" cannot exist, a one substance will never change a whole body.
Well, the matter is that PUERARIA IS NOT RISKFREE and strong phytoestrogens are dangerous. ALso phytoestrogens don't give you more feminine body depending on quantity, if not think that all asiatic women grown up on soy should have big breasts and large hips and butt given the quantity of phytoestrogens they take in childhood and puberty. Instead the contrary is true, asiatic women are typically small breasted and small hips and butt BECAUSE of the quantity of phytoestrogens that de-sensibilize our bodies to our own estrogens. So in phytoestrogens, More is LESS. It could happen an increase in breast initially because the body will think you are in a second puberty (but no hips or butt), and the breast will fade off slowly and unbalace will be the only remain.
Author Reply
SvelteCutie
(Login SvelteCutie) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 4:32 PM
English isn't her first language so that's the reason some of her words/sentences are a bit off. Anyway, it is not my intent to scare people off from PM, it's just that with the info I found it would seem to be a bit dishonest to know this info without passing it on.
I've decided I'm going to leave PM alone. It breaks my heart because I really wanted it to work but I don't think this is the NBE for me.
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madboobie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 4:40 PM
I am beginning to agree with you.
The question is, what is? (the right NBE.....)
I might try a half dose of PM for a month but the thread you've posted above makes sense to me.
The only trouble with alternative methods is I've done noogleberry, can't afford Brava nor do I think I could cope with the isolation of it, ditto bosom beauty.
Which seems to leave Bovine Ovary (scary and not sure if can be got in UK), single herbs (but somewhat scared of fenugreek and smell), Wonderup again (but tried it for 10 months), magnets which seem slightly strange and not terribly effective as far as I can make out, hypnosis...
Yep, there's a lot to think about!
So onward and upward with massage I suppose. On which note I have considered a massage bra.... (ebay)
!!!!!!
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SvelteCutie
(Login SvelteCutie) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 5:10 PM
Girl we should get together and brainstorm! As of right now tigerlily's and fengshui's regimens are looking more and more promising. I am not of asian descent so I don't know if that would have any factor on my success with their programs, doesn't hurt to try though.
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ShyBoobs
(no login) Ooh... February 4 2009, 6:21 PM
Well d@mn. That put a small damper on how I feel about PM. But at the very least, I'm taking low doses of PM and since I'm seeing results I'm just gonna tough it out. I've been going too long without boobs to stop now lol. If I wasn't seeing anything happening for me and noticed a lot of side effects, then I would stop. And cancers are not prevelant in my family, so might as well keep it up.
I say long as you or your family doesn't have a history of cancer, you're seeing results and are taking LOW doses then it shouldn't be a prob. It would prolly be wise to do a cleanse periodically as well.
Thanx sveltecutie, for the info.
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madboobie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 8:40 PM
ShyBoobs, which Pm are you on and what dosage are you taking?
I am taking PM UK stuff which equals 1000mg daily and I fear it is TOO STRONG!!
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ShyBoobs
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 9:50 PM
Hey chica,
I'm taking a US brand called Siriporn. If you check out the 'New Ro-Bust' thread you'll see. I'm using cream and caps, good stuff. I only take 200 mgs per day for 15 days. The actives are supposed to be more concentrated than most other brands, so that's why you don't need 800+ mgs.
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rhapsody
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 5 2009, 7:10 AM
I have to say, I disagree with a lot of what she has to say. She repeatedly compares asians to non-asians, and argues that asians' higher exposure to soy phytoestrogens (and possibly other phytoestrogens) prepares asian women for pueraria, but since non-asians don't eat that much soy, they aren't ready for pueraria. That doesn't seem to be a very good argument to me, because almost all of the phytoestrogens in nature are very weak, usually 1/1000th the strength of estradiol at most, and usually only compose a small amount of the plant's weight. Most of the research on soy isoflavones that has been done has been in petri dishes or with unrealistic doses in rodents who've had their ovaries removed. In normal people, if anything, soy isoflavones are more likely to reduce the effect of estrogen than to enhance it:
http://www.innovations-report.com/html/r...53924.html
Since most phytoestrogens bind to estrogen receptors but stimulate them very weakly, they may end up blocking stimulation from your body's natural estrogens more than they themselves add. This would likely lead to a masculinizing effect, since your body would pump up production of all sex hormones to compensate (including testosterone, which women also produce) for the apparent lack of estrogen.
Pueraria is the exception to the weak-phytoestrogen rule: it has miroestrol and deoxymiroestrol, both of which are more potent than estradiol, and present in fairly large amounts. Saying that eating soy daily prepares you for pueraria mirifica is like saying that drinking 1/100th of a beer every day will make you able to drink 10 beers without getting drunk.
However, she's quite right that pueraria has risks. Soy phytoestrogens won't prepare you for the effects of pueraria. Nothing will. Pueraria is a powerful herb, with powerful effects, some of which are good, and some of which are not. Be careful with your dosage. Pay attention to your bodies. If you start noticing something that scares you, reduce your dosage. If that doesn't clear it up, stop taking PM and try something else.
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Moon
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 5 2009, 9:56 AM
Rhapsody - What you say makes theoretical sense, and yet in practice these weak estrogenic herbs have often produced breast growth and other feminization effects. I think the only way to explain this is that there are a lot more receptors in the body than there are hormones and hence even the weak phytoestrogens can add to the total estrogenic action, rather than compete and diminish it.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 5 2009, 4:20 PM
rhapsody you and Kaiko(had spelled her name wrong the first time) actually agree. You say soy isoflavones will generally diminish estrogen over time and Kaiko said that here:
"...ALso phytoestrogens don't give you more feminine body depending on quantity, if not think that all asiatic women grown up on soy should have big breasts and large hips and butt given the quantity of phytoestrogens they take in childhood and puberty. Instead the contrary is true, asiatic women are typically small breasted and small hips and butt BECAUSE of the quantity of phytoestrogens that de-sensibilize our bodies to our own estrogens..."
Her point with eating the soy is basically that if eaten all your life, your body develops a higher tolerance to phytoestrogens, including pueuraria. What she doesn't say is that asians aren't at risk from taking pueraria. Regardless of diet background, there will likely be risks, just perhaps taken longer to affect one group based on diet than another. Her audience at the time were westerners, that's why she was putting such emphasis on why our diet and asians diet matters in what we can cope with better.
You are what you eat.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Well no, I lied, LOL February 5 2009, 4:38 PM
I actually found a couple more posts from her and she does tend to think asians can cope better with pueraria. Which may be curiously true. If pueraria wrecked havoc on a person no matter their dietary background, it would surely have shown up in history and the natives where the herb is grown would stay away from it. But they don't. They eat it with no problems at all.
The problem is that Pueraria is a strong phytoestrogen (estrogen from
plant source)that in the body looks for the same connections
(receptors)as our natural hormones (estrogens)and eleveta our
quantity of female hormones response and levels. Now, what happens is
that in Thailand, Japan and China, since childhood, you eat a diet
full of cereals with moderate quantity of phytoestrogens so, your
body grows up used to those kind of phytoestrogens going around in
your system (you can see that most guys from those countries have
very few body hair and quasi feminine skin and so). So when you take
a potent phytoestrogen as Pueraria, you are able to process it and
absorb it good. However, in other regions of the world, ou grow up
with lots of meat and vegetables, some few cereals but none of the
phytoestrogens producing cereals or foods, so if you one day go on
something like Pueraria, makes to you esactly the same as if you take
pure hormones and is proven now that excess of hormones taking can
many times produce cancer, hormonal imbalances, masculinization, etc.
So, please TAKE CARE with Pueraria, is not for unprepared bodies, a
huge tasty cheesburger and a coke per day will probably take long to
make you any damage but to people in Japan, Thailand and China have
carried coronary fatal diseases, digestive ulcers and nutritional
defficiencies practically unknown before until whole generations
grew up with that diet.
And here's her responding to someone who inquires if they can build up a tolerance to use pueraria:
Well, my personal opinion is that the diet you grew up with makes who
you are (your body that is) in adult life, so as much as an asian
girl (from previous generations) will never take good large
quantities of meat, the same you will not take good long periods or
large quantities of phytoestrogens because you were not raised eating
that in your daily food (in soy or so) I would not dare to try to
adapt as you want but if you anyway want to, (please be aware of the
risks in health) I would say to take at least one year of adaptation
taking soy first weekly then daily (increase each two weeks the
amount) in the diet and then begin the pueraria at one third of
recommended dosage for a couple of months,later half dose for another
two months and later full dosage. Yes, the process is long, but you
are trying to change how you were taught (your body I mean) to react
to foods and supplements. I know pueraria sounds attractive but
please take care
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 5 2009, 4:41 PM
These are her opinions, not scientific law so feel free to agree or discredit. I just happen to find her viewpoint very insightful, not saying everyone else has to agree.
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seek.the.truth
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 6 2009, 1:42 AM
"... what happens is that in Thailand, Japan and China, since childhood, you eat a diet full of cereals with moderate quantity of phytoestrogens so, your body grows up used to those kind of phytoestrogens going around in your system (you can see that most guys from those countries have
very few body hair and quasi feminine skin and so) ..."
Statements such as the one quoted above have no scientific basis. Genetics, along with the role of androgens during puberty, are why some men are hairier than others. Men of Thai, Japanese and Chinese descent who grow up in America and thus eat an "American" diet are still much less hairy than men of other ethnicities (e.g. Jewish men). It's not due to the food they consume, but the DNA they inherited.
I am appalled that Kaiko, who claims she is a "Dr. of medical biology," is touting her opinions under the guise of a "professional point of view". She has made other statements that I found disconcerting. It's fine to state opinions, but don't throw in your title to validate such opinions. Please stop posting misleading/false info.
I am neither in favor of or against PM. It's a no brainer that there are risks with the foods, herbs, supplements, medicines, etc. we ingest. As with everything, we must do a thorough research and consider whether or not the info, along with their sources, are valid and reliable.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 6 2009, 4:30 PM
Stop posting misleading/false info? Where is your proof Kaiko's point of view is completely invalid? And I mean that, not a challenge. If you don't like what she has to say then fine overlook this post but to whine and complain she's wrong with no proof of it, well it falls on deaf ears. Unless you gripe loud enough, lol.
But I'm serious, if she's wrong then hey I am completely open to hearing reasonable alternative explanations, as I already stated these are just opinions to begin with.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 6 2009, 6:29 PM
I think it would be a good idea to find info to both sides of Kaiko's theory(researched info as to why you believe it or why you don't). PM is still such a mystery to so many of us, you can see the confusion about it here on the boards. As long as there aren't any accusations or offended feelings with nothing to back them up, I think this can be a very good and informative discussion.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Soy Has Anti-drogenic effects February 7 2009, 1:48 AM
By the way seek.the.truth, I was playing around on the internet and found that soy appears to be antidrogenic via genistein and daidzein, two of the isoflavones in it. Antidrogens block male hormones, which includes less body hair.
Also genistein and daidzein stimulates the human body to make more hyaluronic acid which is known to hydrate the skin and make it smoother.
These were only a couple articles I found referring to scientific studies. I'll keep looking to see if I can find more solid info on it.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) I cannot spell... February 7 2009, 1:51 AM
Meant antiandrogenic and antiandrogen.
February 4 2009 at 4:17 PM
SvelteCutie (Login SvelteCutie)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well after having a nice post chat with waxingmoon and finding other info on PM I am beginning to wonder if it is worth trying. Not saying it doesn't work, but worried that it may not last and then there's always that looming thought of it throwing hormones out of balance when I am trying my darndest to get things prepped and in harmony before starting NBE.
I found an old post by a girl name Keiko. She's a Dr. in medical biology and the few times I chatted with her online I found her input very helpful. Here's what she had to say about PM.:
I was asked to reproduce an information I posted a while ago. I am NOT a medical doctor, I am a doctor in medical biology (the effects of medicines and other substances and influences on the body and on its metabolism and health), so this is from my professional point of view AND my personal experience with shaping the body:
Hi girls.
I have posted some weeks ago a Pueraria warning here, I say it again: Pueraria is a strong phytoestrogen that HAS IMPORTANT RISKS! Please read my previous message on Pueraria where I explain why what can work just fine in asiatic people grown up on phytoestrogens daily (SOY products as tofu ) can be UNHEALTHY for people grown up with no phytoestrogens at all and mainly on a protein diet.
Also to put a cream of pueraria on the hips will not make difference with to put it on the elbow or on a leg, phytoestrogens have no local effect, only systemic (all body) effect when are absorbed by the blood, Any effect from a phytoestrogen cream is because is absorbed to the blood and there it competes with our own estrogens going to the receptors of the estrogens and mimicking (playing as if it is) real estrogens, which can be dangerous if your body is not made for that. By "made for that" I mean that in asia we grow up (when the body is on the making) with daily doses of phytoestrogens in our food, and we develope a body metabolism for differentiation and use of that, while people on western diets arrive to adulthood (full developed hormonal system and body) with no preparation for how to cope with high dosages of phytoestrogens. This is a scientific fact.
There is also a big difference between estrogens and phytoestrogens: if you get extra estrogens, these incorporate to your own estrogenic flow and simply increase the quantity of estrogens in your body and in consequence may produce hormonal unbalances, elevated risk for cancer and what is worst for our case, masculinization because of what is called estrogen dominance, making us grow moustache and getting belly etc.
Phytoestrogens, when they enter in your system they don't behave as estrogens, they simply go to the receptors (the places that receive our estrogens messsages on how the body must behave and look) and "play" estrogens unloading messages similar to those of estrogens for the body behaves as if having extra estrogens. Because of this difference is that sellers of phytoestrogens say that phytoestrogens have no the risks of estrogens,what is total and absolute lie because phytoestrogens wil not produce cancer risk but will surely induce worst hormonal unbalance not easy to correct later, estrogen dominance syndrom including masculinization of the body shape (even if getting bigger breasts) and will change totally the way your own estrogens behave making these less because the body asssumes are not needed. PHYTOESTROGENS ARE NOT RISKFREE! And as I say again, if your body is not used to handle these, better stay away of the strong ones as Pueararia also called Krow Ka or you may be looking for trouble.
Also I could like to say that the search for the "magic pill" is a chimera which is not possible to achieve by one simply reason: our bodies are complex systems in which each substance is in balance with many others and to change only one substance can only produce UNBALANCE and chaos in the body that will try to cope with the changes as if it is a threat. As a matter of fact, illnesses (or most of them) are either caused by or their first symptom is the unbalance of one thing in your body and that carries the remaining parts down. Also ALL the many second effects of most (if not all) medicines are exactly because they change one thing only.
Our body is a SYSTEM and if you introduce or increase only ONE substance, you are just producing unbalance and not healthy or progressive change, simply as that. This is the reason because a "magic pill" cannot exist, a one substance will never change a whole body.
Well, the matter is that PUERARIA IS NOT RISKFREE and strong phytoestrogens are dangerous. ALso phytoestrogens don't give you more feminine body depending on quantity, if not think that all asiatic women grown up on soy should have big breasts and large hips and butt given the quantity of phytoestrogens they take in childhood and puberty. Instead the contrary is true, asiatic women are typically small breasted and small hips and butt BECAUSE of the quantity of phytoestrogens that de-sensibilize our bodies to our own estrogens. So in phytoestrogens, More is LESS. It could happen an increase in breast initially because the body will think you are in a second puberty (but no hips or butt), and the breast will fade off slowly and unbalace will be the only remain.
Author Reply
SvelteCutie
(Login SvelteCutie) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 4:32 PM
English isn't her first language so that's the reason some of her words/sentences are a bit off. Anyway, it is not my intent to scare people off from PM, it's just that with the info I found it would seem to be a bit dishonest to know this info without passing it on.
I've decided I'm going to leave PM alone. It breaks my heart because I really wanted it to work but I don't think this is the NBE for me.
Edit Message Delete Message
madboobie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 4:40 PM
I am beginning to agree with you.
The question is, what is? (the right NBE.....)
I might try a half dose of PM for a month but the thread you've posted above makes sense to me.
The only trouble with alternative methods is I've done noogleberry, can't afford Brava nor do I think I could cope with the isolation of it, ditto bosom beauty.
Which seems to leave Bovine Ovary (scary and not sure if can be got in UK), single herbs (but somewhat scared of fenugreek and smell), Wonderup again (but tried it for 10 months), magnets which seem slightly strange and not terribly effective as far as I can make out, hypnosis...
Yep, there's a lot to think about!
So onward and upward with massage I suppose. On which note I have considered a massage bra.... (ebay)
!!!!!!
Edit Message Delete Message
SvelteCutie
(Login SvelteCutie) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 5:10 PM
Girl we should get together and brainstorm! As of right now tigerlily's and fengshui's regimens are looking more and more promising. I am not of asian descent so I don't know if that would have any factor on my success with their programs, doesn't hurt to try though.
Edit Message Delete Message
ShyBoobs
(no login) Ooh... February 4 2009, 6:21 PM
Well d@mn. That put a small damper on how I feel about PM. But at the very least, I'm taking low doses of PM and since I'm seeing results I'm just gonna tough it out. I've been going too long without boobs to stop now lol. If I wasn't seeing anything happening for me and noticed a lot of side effects, then I would stop. And cancers are not prevelant in my family, so might as well keep it up.
I say long as you or your family doesn't have a history of cancer, you're seeing results and are taking LOW doses then it shouldn't be a prob. It would prolly be wise to do a cleanse periodically as well.
Thanx sveltecutie, for the info.
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madboobie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 8:40 PM
ShyBoobs, which Pm are you on and what dosage are you taking?
I am taking PM UK stuff which equals 1000mg daily and I fear it is TOO STRONG!!
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ShyBoobs
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 4 2009, 9:50 PM
Hey chica,
I'm taking a US brand called Siriporn. If you check out the 'New Ro-Bust' thread you'll see. I'm using cream and caps, good stuff. I only take 200 mgs per day for 15 days. The actives are supposed to be more concentrated than most other brands, so that's why you don't need 800+ mgs.
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rhapsody
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 5 2009, 7:10 AM
I have to say, I disagree with a lot of what she has to say. She repeatedly compares asians to non-asians, and argues that asians' higher exposure to soy phytoestrogens (and possibly other phytoestrogens) prepares asian women for pueraria, but since non-asians don't eat that much soy, they aren't ready for pueraria. That doesn't seem to be a very good argument to me, because almost all of the phytoestrogens in nature are very weak, usually 1/1000th the strength of estradiol at most, and usually only compose a small amount of the plant's weight. Most of the research on soy isoflavones that has been done has been in petri dishes or with unrealistic doses in rodents who've had their ovaries removed. In normal people, if anything, soy isoflavones are more likely to reduce the effect of estrogen than to enhance it:
http://www.innovations-report.com/html/r...53924.html
Since most phytoestrogens bind to estrogen receptors but stimulate them very weakly, they may end up blocking stimulation from your body's natural estrogens more than they themselves add. This would likely lead to a masculinizing effect, since your body would pump up production of all sex hormones to compensate (including testosterone, which women also produce) for the apparent lack of estrogen.
Pueraria is the exception to the weak-phytoestrogen rule: it has miroestrol and deoxymiroestrol, both of which are more potent than estradiol, and present in fairly large amounts. Saying that eating soy daily prepares you for pueraria mirifica is like saying that drinking 1/100th of a beer every day will make you able to drink 10 beers without getting drunk.
However, she's quite right that pueraria has risks. Soy phytoestrogens won't prepare you for the effects of pueraria. Nothing will. Pueraria is a powerful herb, with powerful effects, some of which are good, and some of which are not. Be careful with your dosage. Pay attention to your bodies. If you start noticing something that scares you, reduce your dosage. If that doesn't clear it up, stop taking PM and try something else.
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Moon
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 5 2009, 9:56 AM
Rhapsody - What you say makes theoretical sense, and yet in practice these weak estrogenic herbs have often produced breast growth and other feminization effects. I think the only way to explain this is that there are a lot more receptors in the body than there are hormones and hence even the weak phytoestrogens can add to the total estrogenic action, rather than compete and diminish it.
Edit Message Delete Message
SvelteCutie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 5 2009, 4:20 PM
rhapsody you and Kaiko(had spelled her name wrong the first time) actually agree. You say soy isoflavones will generally diminish estrogen over time and Kaiko said that here:
"...ALso phytoestrogens don't give you more feminine body depending on quantity, if not think that all asiatic women grown up on soy should have big breasts and large hips and butt given the quantity of phytoestrogens they take in childhood and puberty. Instead the contrary is true, asiatic women are typically small breasted and small hips and butt BECAUSE of the quantity of phytoestrogens that de-sensibilize our bodies to our own estrogens..."
Her point with eating the soy is basically that if eaten all your life, your body develops a higher tolerance to phytoestrogens, including pueuraria. What she doesn't say is that asians aren't at risk from taking pueraria. Regardless of diet background, there will likely be risks, just perhaps taken longer to affect one group based on diet than another. Her audience at the time were westerners, that's why she was putting such emphasis on why our diet and asians diet matters in what we can cope with better.
You are what you eat.
Edit Message Delete Message
SvelteCutie
(no login) Well no, I lied, LOL February 5 2009, 4:38 PM
I actually found a couple more posts from her and she does tend to think asians can cope better with pueraria. Which may be curiously true. If pueraria wrecked havoc on a person no matter their dietary background, it would surely have shown up in history and the natives where the herb is grown would stay away from it. But they don't. They eat it with no problems at all.
The problem is that Pueraria is a strong phytoestrogen (estrogen from
plant source)that in the body looks for the same connections
(receptors)as our natural hormones (estrogens)and eleveta our
quantity of female hormones response and levels. Now, what happens is
that in Thailand, Japan and China, since childhood, you eat a diet
full of cereals with moderate quantity of phytoestrogens so, your
body grows up used to those kind of phytoestrogens going around in
your system (you can see that most guys from those countries have
very few body hair and quasi feminine skin and so). So when you take
a potent phytoestrogen as Pueraria, you are able to process it and
absorb it good. However, in other regions of the world, ou grow up
with lots of meat and vegetables, some few cereals but none of the
phytoestrogens producing cereals or foods, so if you one day go on
something like Pueraria, makes to you esactly the same as if you take
pure hormones and is proven now that excess of hormones taking can
many times produce cancer, hormonal imbalances, masculinization, etc.
So, please TAKE CARE with Pueraria, is not for unprepared bodies, a
huge tasty cheesburger and a coke per day will probably take long to
make you any damage but to people in Japan, Thailand and China have
carried coronary fatal diseases, digestive ulcers and nutritional
defficiencies practically unknown before until whole generations
grew up with that diet.
And here's her responding to someone who inquires if they can build up a tolerance to use pueraria:
Well, my personal opinion is that the diet you grew up with makes who
you are (your body that is) in adult life, so as much as an asian
girl (from previous generations) will never take good large
quantities of meat, the same you will not take good long periods or
large quantities of phytoestrogens because you were not raised eating
that in your daily food (in soy or so) I would not dare to try to
adapt as you want but if you anyway want to, (please be aware of the
risks in health) I would say to take at least one year of adaptation
taking soy first weekly then daily (increase each two weeks the
amount) in the diet and then begin the pueraria at one third of
recommended dosage for a couple of months,later half dose for another
two months and later full dosage. Yes, the process is long, but you
are trying to change how you were taught (your body I mean) to react
to foods and supplements. I know pueraria sounds attractive but
please take care
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 5 2009, 4:41 PM
These are her opinions, not scientific law so feel free to agree or discredit. I just happen to find her viewpoint very insightful, not saying everyone else has to agree.
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seek.the.truth
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 6 2009, 1:42 AM
"... what happens is that in Thailand, Japan and China, since childhood, you eat a diet full of cereals with moderate quantity of phytoestrogens so, your body grows up used to those kind of phytoestrogens going around in your system (you can see that most guys from those countries have
very few body hair and quasi feminine skin and so) ..."
Statements such as the one quoted above have no scientific basis. Genetics, along with the role of androgens during puberty, are why some men are hairier than others. Men of Thai, Japanese and Chinese descent who grow up in America and thus eat an "American" diet are still much less hairy than men of other ethnicities (e.g. Jewish men). It's not due to the food they consume, but the DNA they inherited.
I am appalled that Kaiko, who claims she is a "Dr. of medical biology," is touting her opinions under the guise of a "professional point of view". She has made other statements that I found disconcerting. It's fine to state opinions, but don't throw in your title to validate such opinions. Please stop posting misleading/false info.
I am neither in favor of or against PM. It's a no brainer that there are risks with the foods, herbs, supplements, medicines, etc. we ingest. As with everything, we must do a thorough research and consider whether or not the info, along with their sources, are valid and reliable.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 6 2009, 4:30 PM
Stop posting misleading/false info? Where is your proof Kaiko's point of view is completely invalid? And I mean that, not a challenge. If you don't like what she has to say then fine overlook this post but to whine and complain she's wrong with no proof of it, well it falls on deaf ears. Unless you gripe loud enough, lol.
But I'm serious, if she's wrong then hey I am completely open to hearing reasonable alternative explanations, as I already stated these are just opinions to begin with.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Re: Doubts about PM February 6 2009, 6:29 PM
I think it would be a good idea to find info to both sides of Kaiko's theory(researched info as to why you believe it or why you don't). PM is still such a mystery to so many of us, you can see the confusion about it here on the boards. As long as there aren't any accusations or offended feelings with nothing to back them up, I think this can be a very good and informative discussion.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) Soy Has Anti-drogenic effects February 7 2009, 1:48 AM
By the way seek.the.truth, I was playing around on the internet and found that soy appears to be antidrogenic via genistein and daidzein, two of the isoflavones in it. Antidrogens block male hormones, which includes less body hair.
Also genistein and daidzein stimulates the human body to make more hyaluronic acid which is known to hydrate the skin and make it smoother.
These were only a couple articles I found referring to scientific studies. I'll keep looking to see if I can find more solid info on it.
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SvelteCutie
(no login) I cannot spell... February 7 2009, 1:51 AM
Meant antiandrogenic and antiandrogen.