[BelaBrasil]

I've been reading over a lot of your posts, and you seem to understand exactly how this all works, so I have a few questions for you.

I'd really like to understand how the estrogen binding and progesterone binding receptors work, especially around the different times of my cycle. Should I take some herbs at certain points during my cycle?

I also read about something called cycling, or changing up the amount of herbal intake every now and then so my growth doesn't stall. Would you suggest stopping the herbs completely during those points, or just decreasing them?

I'm also looking into birth control. Most likely nuva ring. I was told only saw palmetto would interfere with the hormones, but I'm skeptical.

I'm taking fenugreek, fennel, saw palmetto, dong quai, and wild yam. I'm looking into starting red clover. I'd really like to know what each of these do. I'm a huge science nerd and I like to understand EXACTLY what's going on in my body.

I know I've asked a lot of questions, both on this post and previously, but I've looked everywhere on this site and I can't seem to find the answers I'm looking for, and it's rare for me to get answers to my posts in the first place. I'm really hoping I get one for this.

[Isabelle]

Woww Bela,

These are indeed all the tough questions that have not been answered lately. I hope Wahaika answers the endocrine ones. I'll have a go at the herbal ones now so he can add or correct later.

My mom ran her cycles with fresh herbs and veggies from the garden. There was hops, thyme, borage, asparagus, yucca, rhubarb, evening primrose, lettuce, broccoli, spinach, and much more. She told me about it. No way to raise a boy, but I still think it's a gift. You have moons, seasons, and your life cycle. Some herbs are for the moon cycle, some for seasonal changes, and some for life events.

Wahaika prefers march-september for NBE. My dad taught me to harvest asparagus between Saint Joseph (May 1st) and Saint John (summer solstice). Hops is harvested in August. So what would you use sarsasapogenin and 8-prenylnaringenin for? You're getting it

Now back to your post. I'm working with MoK217 in this post
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8294&pid=31797#pid31797
on Ginie's cycle between PM and hops+FG. Ginie recommends dr. Lee's site to find out when to use progestins, if at all. We're still figuring out days 25-5. There are good PMS and fertility herbs for these days, but nobody seems to like them around here. Look at Wahaika's graph we use in that thread. Do not use progestins from day 1 to 11. Decrease estrogens sharply two days before you ovulate, and use the lowest dose, not zero, from day 25.

Now back to your herbs:

Fenugreek stimulates secretion of insulin (waist slimming) and prolactin (swelling).
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=31217&highlight=fenugreek#pid31217

Fennel stimulates prolactin secretion (swelling) and contains phyto-progestins (stop NBE growth and mature breast shape)
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7984&pid=31800&highlight=fennel#pid31800

Saw palmetto is a DHT blocker (stops breakouts, facial hair, male pattern baldness, body hair) It will make you feel weird and ruin your ability to cope with stress:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=31857&highlight=stress#pid31857

Dong quai: how did this find its way into NBE programs? There has been only one documented case of gynecomastia from dong quai, ever:
http://www.sma.org.sg/smj/4203/4203cr1.pdf
A medically trained herbalist with an excellent reputation, Adriane Fugh-Berman, suspects adulteration of the formula that was studied:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=30086&highlight=fugh#pid30086
Dong quai even inhibits the body's own synthesis of estradiol:
http://www.cancersupportivecare.com/estr...discussion

Wild yam is a 16α-hydroxyestrone blocker: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=30744&highlight=map#pid30744 open the link to the steroidogenesis map. 16α-hydroxyestrone is off the map at bottom right. It is one of the two metabolites of natural estrogens. Wild yam may keep your estrogens levels up, by not letting them leak away to 16α-hydroxyestrone. But it's not watertight, because your natural estrogens will still leak away to the other metabolite, 2-hydroxyestrone.

Red clover is just as much a phyto-progestin as a phyto-estrogen:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=30122&highlight=clover#pid30122 open the link to cancersupportivecare.com
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8756&pid=30712&highlight=clover#pid30712 in the opening post of this thread, Rosieli describes very well what progestins do to your body's general apearance.

Now look at what is not in your herbs:
Where is the phyto-estrogen? Hops and PM are some of the very few phyto-estrogens that are not progestinic. Phyto-estrogens are what will make you grow.

I hope this is a start, and Wahaika can help with the other questions

[BelaBrasil]

Thank you so much for your response Isabelle!!

So I should stop taking Dong Quai then? I initially started taking it because I read that it helps regulate periods. Mine is usually pretty irregular (it likes to sync to the women I'm hang out with a lot). But if any of the other herbs do that as well, than it's fine.

I typically have around a 35 day cycle, so does that change anything in terms of when I should be taking each herb?

Let me see if I got this straight. Days 1-11 (or from the point my period starts to right before I start ovulating) I should take only phyto-estrogens. Then two days before I ovulate, I sharply lower the estrogens, but what do I take then? Just a lower dose of estrogen? What do I take during the point when my natural progestins are at their highest?

For some reason I thought Fenugreek and Fennel were both estrogenic. This whole thing can get very confusing sometimes, but it's definitely worth it.

I'm taking Lemon Balm for it's calming qualities, and I don't feel as weird as others have been claiming while I'm taking Saw Palmetto. I've been on SP for 2 months and I haven't really had any issues with stress as of yet. As for Red Clover, I don't really mind the muscular look progestine seems to bring. I'm a tiny person and I've always wanted a little more tonage. I've read a lot about PM and it sounds promising, but my only issue with it is growth in the butt. I wouldn't mind a little growth down there, but I already have, I guess you could say, a brazilian butt. My problem has always been that I have more going on in the back than in the front.

[Isabelle]

OK Bela,

There is little experience on the forum, but my parents' garden tells me women should lower phyto-estrogens (certainly PM) sharply 2 days before ovulation, lower again to minimum phyto-estrogens 11 days after ovulation, and take a PMS herb then. Stop all phyto-progestins on day 1, switch to a phyto-estrogen only herb, and take a cramps herb. I don't know much about the Chinese herbal tradition: is dong quai for PMS or for cramps? Increase phyto-estrogens from day 6, and peak them by three days before you ovulate.

Print this, and hang it above you herbs stash:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=67

You're right: don't use PM, if the progestin look is what you're after. You do need a phyto-estrogen herb that has no phyto-progestins from day 1 to 11, except if you have children, AND breastfed them, AND had your target size while feeding. I use hops. There are two alternatives: yellow dock and sheep sorrel (anybody heard of those?):
http://www.cancersupportivecare.com/estr...tml#table2
Start the herbs in table 3, like red clover, gently 2 days before ovulation, peak on days 7 to 9 after ovulation, and decrease to zero by day 1. Make a sensible choice in table 3 (no bloodroot, mandrake and such), and remember to stay away from oregano, thyme, nutmeg, turmeric (curry), licorice, cumin, and camomille, from day 1 to 3 days before you ovulate. Print tables 2 and 3 for herb shopping and for your kitchen herb shelf.

Find out when you ovulate: search for posts by Ginie on BBT charting. She recommends dr. Lee's site for guidelines on when to use progestins. You can also use his test:
http://www.johnleemd.com/store/resource_...etest.html
If you want to track your balance, google lists of symptoms of estrogen dominance, and symptoms of progesterone dominance. Check them both daily, and remember that you're doing OK if you are estrogen dominant 3 days before your ovulation, and progesterone dominant 7-9 days after it. If your cycle synchronizes with the women around you, just let it.

If SP doesn't get to your libido or your ability to cope with stress, keep using it. Just not too much. Only increase it if you see acne, hair loss, facial or body hair.

[BelaBrasil]

Thank you, Isabelle

Thanks to our discussion, I have decided to start PM (though it has not arrived yet). I've stopped taking the saw palmetto and fennel. I am continuing to take fenugreek, wild yam, and red clover (only in the second half of my cycle).

I just wanted to make sure I understand what I'm supposed to do, because I don't want to mess up my cycle.

I've read in some places that you can take PM the first day of your period and I've read in some places that you can't and you should start after your period is over. Which one is it?

I also saw that you created a PM/BS graph for a 28 day cycle, and I was wondering if you knew enough about 35 day cycles to possibly make a quick one for me.

[BelaBrasil]

ps I stopped taking fennel because I was worried that with the red clover there would be too many progestins in my system, but I do want the ripped lean look you were talking to Bibi about here: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9181
but with a larger butt (sure why not?) and larger breasts.

I'm also thinking about ordering some hops, since you do like it a lot, and I respect your infinite wisdom

So with all that said, I'd also like to know what is safe to take while taking PM? I know red clover is out during those days, but I also don't want to be taking any other estrogens on top of it. Can I still take fenugreek (it HAS been slimming my waist and I love it) and wild yam?

[Isabelle]

I would use PM on day 1, but at the lowest dose: 1 capsule. Only go to two capsules after your period.

You can use the same PM/BS table.
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8440&pid=32874#pid32874
The three dots mean you just keep taking the same amounts as on day 28 for 7 more days, until your period starts. What is essential for the timing of your period, is the drop in PM on day 12. If your cycle is too long, move the drop to day 11, if it's still too long to day 10.

Ginie posted that some women ovulate on day 8. That means their estrogens drop on day 6. Even if their periods are short, they still have only one or two days for the estrogen peak. The up and down slopes of the estrogen peak is when you grow: just learned that from Pansy-Mae.
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=32981#pid32981

[Isabelle]

Hi Bela,

I agree that fennel and RC together may be too much progestins. The fenugreek will also help achieve the look.

You can take FG with PM. GorgeousBlonde and lled34aa have been taking PM with goat's rue for a while, and love it.

Be careful with WY and PM together. PM increases estrogens, and WY hinders the breakdown of estrogens. Watch out for symptoms of estrogen dominance.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle,

More good info...

[gasolinerainbow]

This is all really putting me off the progesterone cream I started using two months ago...

P.S. I loved the tables of herbs on the cancer supportive care website that you linked Isabelle.