[beachbumbythesea]

Thank you ...I havent taken my cal/mag for 2 days so thank you for the pointer on that..zinc not sure how to go about that, will not take a multi..no nada.. I did drink some lemon water with a teaspoon of black strap molassis sp? and I think it has zinc..

I am do afraid of hops just because I know what beer makes me feel like and I dont like that feeling especially after..hey just thought of something you wrote..is that why the next day I feel foggy after drinking did my estrogen go up after drinking beer..just a thought...(haha yeap thinking again..eek).. Is hops working for you.. yes I am surprised too that no many males take it..

you say those are symptoms of estrogen dom.. I am in my third day of my period..not sure how the cycle goes if you know can you explain it again for me I keep forgetting..ok my estrogen is going up again..correct..it drops just before it starts and does it drop again in another cycle...man the human body is so confusing sometimes or it just takes a long time just for all the info to sink in...wooooff..

[Isabelle]

Yess, Susan,

You could try molasses, but there's much more zinc in meat and fish and chicken, and the real zinc bomb is oysters

I don't trust beer either. Not all of it is checked for zearalenone, and that is way more estrogenic than estrogen itself:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...730801100X
so you maybe right finding yourself like you are extremely estrogen dominant after drinking some beers. The more traditionally brewed they are, the worse you would feel. Guiness

Estrogen should be low now, for an eight day run that ends on day 5. But you have continued to take PM through this period, so that is really fighting with your body's own progesterone now. That could be the reason why your period was short. Don't change anything about the PM now: the situation will be normal in less than 2 days.

[beachbumbythesea]

Yess, Susan,

You could try molasses, but there's much more zinc in meat and fish and chicken, and the real zinc bomb is oysters

I don't trust beer either. Not all of it is checked for zearalenone, and that is way more estrogenic than estrogen itself:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...730801100X
so you maybe right finding yourself like you are extremely estrogen dominant after drinking some beers. The more traditionally brewed they are, the worse you would feel. Guiness

Estrogen should be low now, for an eight day run that ends on day 5. But you have continued to take PM through this period, so that is really fighting with your body's own progesterone now. That could be the reason why your period was short. Don't change anything about the PM now: the situation will be normal in less than 2 days.

No Isabelle my period didnt stop..that is what is confusing to me...I am bleeding pretty good but not bad the usual well more then I use to a few months back I usually would be close to done by now..and I am getting twinges again and they stopped a few days before my period but started again...It started a little after added SP back but it is more so since I took my collagen and GABA last night and continued the SP..so that is why I was asking that so maybe it only dropped just for maybe 2-3 days before my period..I thought is suppose to be at a low too at this point or maybe going up just a little..but dont know and who cares..haha getting twinges and have a period.. just very interesting and thought it may help others on PM too..at my age..

Black strap molasses does have zinc and it taste better then molasses and less sugar...taste like licorce sp?..

You mention progesterone and wondering if I should take something for that..Wahaika says only touch it if you experience lack of symptoms..I have to check on the list not sure if I do..and dont want to mess me up or NBE..thank you for clearifying when progesterone kicks in the cycle..

[Isabelle]

Wahaika posted this graph. It's really helpful:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=67

[Isabelle]

What my dad used to buy for me is glutamic acid, not glutamine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine
An interesting quote from this article:
"Evidence indicates that glutamine when orally loaded may increase plasma HGH levels by stimulating the anterior pituitary gland."
"May". The reference cited is from 1995.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/61/5/1058.short
More recent work doubts the value of L-glutamine supplementation:
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/138/10/2045S.abstract

Also found this
"The pathways linking arginine, glutamine, and proline are bidirectional."
here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-arginine
This means the body can make arginine from glutamine and vice versa.
So supplementing either one or the other should have similar effects.

However, the dietary sources listed for both L-arginine and L-glutamine are in every boobie diet. So why supplement? Also, when I look at the list of stimulators for HGH secretion here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_growth_hormone
there's not so much more one can do. Wahaika already suggested to leave the L-dopa alone:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8751
I agree 5-HTP is worth looking into:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7997&pid=28924&highlight=%225-HTP%22#pid28924
Wikipedia also lists "Vigorous exercise". I like Wahaika's exercise (scroll down until you see "Exercise"):
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8405&pid=29216&highlight=%22Exercise%22#pid29216
I can do a similar exercise, dumbbell flyes, right here and now.

Almost forgot to update on my program. I did not add broken flaxseed to my boobie porridge last night. I was awake for two hours after eating it, and had a swell.

Morning: multivitamin, green tea.
Evening: microwave porridge (milk, two tablespoons = 2000 mg hops flowers, oat flakes, other cereals, honey, raisins)

I'm surprised the swelling happens so early in the ramp up, and this is all it takes. So I continue to simplify, and take the oats out tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. After that, I'll add the fenugreek.

[lled34aa]

thanks isabelle for all the info. i've also read other sources that questions the efficiency of l-glutamine supplement as well. i am trying to do some high intensity work outs which should shoot off some HGH. i know it's been mentioned that for NBE to work, you need a higher body fat percentage. i am just not willing to grow a gut in order to go up a cup size. i think a fit toned body with smaller boobs is sexier. i am eating a lot of good fat though, like coconut oil, avocado, olive oil etc...

when you steep fenugreek seeds in water, do they turn kinda slimy? i've been drinking FG tea and today, i thought why not use the used teabag full of FG and rub it on my boobs for massage. the slimy texture was unexpected. i wasn't sure if that's the nature of the seeds, or if something else was added to the tea.

[Isabelle]

Yes, lled,

When I read your stats, :sigh: i'd die for your figure

I'm trying to come up with a way to grow breasts via fat storage in the butt instead of the gut. But I don't know yet when to start the maca, and when to start the goat's rue batter. You'll be the first to know if it works!

I have soaked whole fenugreek seeds in water overnight, and powdered fenugreek seeds in various percentages of alcohol for weeks, and never saw anything slimy. I did use green teabags on puffy eyes once, after going bad on almonds. Those teabags were slimy. So what you saw may just have been caused by the bags themselves, or the glue, or indeed, some additive. I assume there are anticaking agents or similar things in teabags.

Several names of fenugreek in Dutch refer to slime. But that's because one traditional use is to clear slime from the throat.

Be careful with soaked fenugreek seeds these days. Sprouted Egyptian fenugreek seeds have been indicated in the search for the root cause of EHEC bacteria infections lately.

[lled34aa]

fat storage in the gut might be due to high cortisol level. cortisol corresponds with insulin and stress. long arduous exercises over an hour long can also cause your body to release cortisol. hence, the recommendation for shorter high intensity workouts, and low carb diet (since carb raises insulin).

then you can eat lots of good fats and proteins (and veggies), in combination with estrogenic herbs, and hopefully gain fat in other areas like hips/butt/breasts rather than gut.

this is my theory anyways based on my own researches from the past few months.

interesting about the fenugreek. i'd have to look further into what else is in that tea i'm drinking.

i'm thinking of switching from natureday to greenbush since it's cheaper and i don't like the fact that natureday seem to have tons of fake testimonials on amazon.

[Isabelle]

Thank you, lled, for bringing up cortisol. I hadn't really thought about that, because I thought I had dealt with it.

Looking back at pictures from 2004 and 2007 (when my job stressed me out and I did a lot of bodypump classes), I notice I had more abdominal fat than I have now, while fitting in a smaller size jeans then. But during my break in June, several symptoms came back.

Before your post, I was thinking about progesterone excess, and was using this list:
Symptoms of Progesterone Toxicity
http://livingtherhythm.com/?page_id=60
I actually observed several during my break.

But after you mentioned cortisol, I started to think one step further:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol
Under the header "Factors generally increasing cortisol levels", there are several events and situations I experienced over the last ten years. I have eliminated most of them from my life now. Note that high intensity workouts are also on this article's black list. What really helped me a lot is getting rid of commuting stress. Instead of the car and the train, I use bus, tram, and bicycle. Buses and trams run on time, and I schedule everything so as to include at least 10 walks of 20 minutes a week.
This article also shows the really useful map I linked before. I assume the map in here is the original.
Steroidogenesis, showing cortisol at right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steroidogenesis.svg
The map shows cortisol is made from progesterone. Looking at the 2004-2007 pictures, I also notice a lot of bones and veins in my hands, which clearly shows collagen was low. The wikipedia article lists low collagen as a consequence of high cortisol. Many of the symptoms during my break are also related to high cortisol. I think it's in check now because of the hops, since I have a small rash under my elbow, something I rarely see, and certainly not between 2004 and 2007.

Sorry if the order in which I wrote this is confusing. I will just work on further lowering cortisol, and see if it helps. I also got great skin from "anti-inflammatory" foods, but now I wonder: did they raise cortisol?

The time is also right for a reality check:
Height: 178.5 cm = 5' 10"
Weight: 84.5 kg = 186 lbs
BMI: 84.5/1.785/1.785 = 26.5
Breast: 105 cm = 41"
Under: 97 cm = 38"
Waist: 96 cm = 38"
Hip: 101 = 40"
Waist to hip ratio (WHR): 96/101 = 0.95

My targets are
A BMI of 23 (73 kg, or lose 25 lbs!) and a WHR of 0.8 (waist 81 cm), in two-three years.
WHR 0.7 (hips 116 cm) and F cups in 5 years

The first step is to further lower carbs.

Happy to read you are looking into reasonably priced, reliable sources for herbs. I have been lucky in local stores:
hops 200 g € 7.40
fenugreek 250 g € 0.93
Both are enough for a three month ramp up, and they work

[Isabelle]

Finally found a good map, and now the "You are here" arrow is not where I thought it would be

This is what happened. Yesterday was my second day on just hops without flax seed or oat flakes. I tried hops tea last night, from the usual two tablespoons (2000 mg). The rash under my right elbow turned into a patch of little blisters for a while, then became dry, rough, slightly elevated skin again. Yesterday it was yellow, now it's red. I don't remember what happened before the tea and what happened after it. So tonight I'm trying the tea again. Forget about the FG for a while.

I've never had anything like psoriasis, but it's not the first time I have this rash. Since lled brought up cortisol, i have given it a lot of thought. During my break, progesterone and cortisol were high, and there was no rash. No wonder, as cortisol suppresses inflammation. The rash appeared after starting hops. That's right: estrogens suppress cortisol.

Cortisol is made from progesterone. During my break, I had a lot of symptoms of progesterone dominance, and almost none of testosterone (one pimple, yeah). So now I'm trying to balance estrogen and progesterone. Is this the dreaded "point of no return", or does it just mean my anti-androgen intake is enough for now? Do I need a progesterone blocker?

Or do I just need to lower the hops a little? Just until the rash heals. I'll try to figure it out with the hops tea. It's easy to dose, and the taste is OK. It works: I had little shoots during massage this morning, even in my smaller right breast.

Hops is weird. Go figure what I found yesterday:
http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S08...1/abstract
The greater bone density found in women beer drinkers might be a result of the phytoestrogen content of this alcoholic drink; this requires further investigation.

Further investigation. Yeah, right