[rayawantsboobs]

I've been using PM for a month now (currently waiting for my period to start...any day now...) as well as various supplements (MSM, collagen, calcium, fish oil, borage oil, kelp, maca, etc.) and chicken feet soup. I also use topical PM cream, do chi rotations, and try to do fengshui's hurtful massage using olive oil. Oh, and I noogleberry for hours whenever I can.
My breasts have been swollen for awhile now and look and feel fuller than I remember them being; I don't think they're bigger, but they're somehow wider and firmer, although sore from the massage.
My question is if I might be able to add Fenugreek into my routine. I take a low dosage of PM (400/day) and after reading about Fenugreek for awhile, think it might be really helpful, not just for boobie growth, but for insulin control. I don't have diabetes, but I have a few of the symptoms...weight gain around the midriff area and a constant, lingering craving for sweets.
Is anyone currently taking both?

[lilmissprettytits]

i think some do, in the low PM phase, the second half of the menstrual cycle. I wouldn't do that myself, as i would be concerned that the weaker phyto estrogens in FK would compete for the breasts receptors.

PM is touted as the strongest of all the phyto estrogens, so i wouldnt want to disturb/interupt its effects.

You are on a low dose of PM, most people use 1000mg a day. Maybe you could ramp it up a little? Goats Rue (tablets or extract coz the raw herb is toxic) is a powerful galactagogue same as fenugreek, but it is not a phtoestrogen, as far as i am aware, so it doesn't interfere with hormones & wont compete for receptor sites. I'm going to use GR & PM together, i think i will actually ingest them at different times tho, on an empty stomach.

Aslo im now taking l-arginine, last thing at night on empty stomach, main reason is coz it supports & nourishes the glands that are involved in secetion of hormones.

[Isabelle]

FG is not a phyto-estrogen. Susan (beachbumbythesea) peaks PM between her period and ovulation, and FG after ovulation. She monitors her symptoms to make sure she is estrogen dominant (but not too much) before ovulation, and slightly progesterone dominant after ovulation.

[lilmissprettytits]

Isabelle what makes you say that FK is not a phyto estrogen? As far as i know it IS, thats why i was taking it, i've read countless documents, over the last few years, confirming its effectivness in stimulating estrogen recepters in most people.

[Isabelle]

Well lilmissprettytits,

Stimulating estrogen receptors is not the same as being a phyto-estrogen. I stick to the scientific documents only. Phyto-estrogens are digested to 17β-estradiol:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=35716#pid35716

FG does increase natural estrogens, but FG increases prolactin and progesterone too:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34475#pid34475

I think the confusion is caused by a recent study in India using MCF-7 cell lines. This study finds estrogenic activity:
http://medind.nic.in/iby/t10/i6/ibyt10i6p814.pdf
But others find the opposite:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...9707002360
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...2405003252
or no effect on estrogen levels at all:
http://digitalcommons.wku.edu/ijesab/vol2/iss1/13/

The fundamental reason for the conflicting experimental results is in my view diosgenin. Like wild yam, fenugreek contains diosgenin. Diosgenin is used in the laboratory to make DHEA, but there is no biochemical reaction pathway that does that in vivo. Wild yam does block the metabolism of estrone to 16α-hydroxyestrone. Because of that, it can cause an increase in estrone. The body can also make estradiol from estrone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steroidogenesis.svg
so studies may even find an increase in estradiol in the right circumstances.

But does that make diosgenin or fenugreek a phyto-estrogen? No. The estrogenic effect of the real phyto-estrogens is much stronger, because they are digested directly to 17β-estradiol, which is a strong estrogen.

For me, the main effect of FG is galactogogue, because it increases prolactin. It is also hypoglycemic, because it releases insulin and increases insulin sensitivity. A third effect is the increase of progesterone. A slight increase in natural estrogens may also occur in the right circumstances. Did anybody ever get a headache from FG?

[lilmissprettytits]

i got breast growth with the standard 3 herb combo, i thought that was the reason that everyone uses/includes it, FK, WY & SP !??... coz its phyto estrogenic & stimulates receptors/growth?

OMG Isabelle i was SO hoping that was a typo & you were gonna say u meant to say that G.R is not phyto estrogenic (not FK)! Had a feeling you weren't going to tho.

That is a real spanner in the works for me, almost everthing i've read, which is maybe hundreds of pages, states that FK is a phytoestrogen. I've barely been able to understand it as it is...aaaaarrrggggghhhh

[Isabelle]

Hi lilmissprettytits,

I'm sorry I'm complicating things for you. The WY FG SP combo only works for women who breastfed and had the size they want then. Their bodies make enough estrogens, the WY just prevents them from being metabolised.

For women in their teens or early twenties before their first pregnancy, and for women in or after menopause, a real phyto-estrogen like hops or PM is needed.

For the record: GR is not a phyto-estrogen either. It increases prolactin and it increases insulin sensitivity.

[lilmissprettytits]

....pm/hops...a real phyto estrogen, so is FK not effective ...enough for initial growing spurts?

There is a lot of confusion already on this topic (phyto nutrients/hrt), even among the "authoritys" on the subject. i did notice while researching & trying to make up my mind that all the data is conflicting it is V.confusing.

Hell no i dont care that you're making it mOre confusing, i wanna get to the root of this, i need to know, hopefully in this lifetime

[rayawantsboobs]

Thanks for the information! Isabelle - I've read through so many of your posts on fennel, fenugreek, and GR...part of the reason I'm going to head out today in search of the three. Do you think it might be safe for me to add GR to my PM routine (thanks lilmissprettytits - i prob. will ramp it up this coming month) and take fenugreek and fennel tea during my luteal phase?

[lilmissprettytits]

P.s thanks all the info is extremely appreciated, even if it is making my brain melt