[gogirlanime]

Hello all (sorry this might be long... so thank you if you read all / some of it). I was pretty active on these forums in the summer of 2011 but I had to stop because I became estrogen dominant and I still need to take vitex till mid July to balance my hormones back to normal.

My brain has become a bit rusty on NBE so I have some questions about a good regiment to start in July. I thought I'd start researching now so I buy all the right stuff at the end of June.

I've tried PM and I've just come to the conclusion that my body does not like it no matter how little of a dosage I start out with I always get excess estrogen (or in my last case estrogen dominance) and I have to stop right away. I tried FG & SP together and that seemed to be working I took 3,000mg of FG and 320mg of concentrated Saw Palmetto. I saw an inch of growth in two weeks!

I am now more interested in taking a much more mild and slow angle to NBE. I don't want to take the strongest of things like PM, SP because my hormones get out of whack that way very quickly. I think my body is very sensitive to herbs that effect your hormones so a mild approach I think will be healthy for me. I think it's because I am vegan, I absorb, circulate, and make use of nutrients very well.

I am interested in these herbs
-Fennel (an aromatase correct?)
-Hops (a phytoestrogen correct?)
-Fenugreek (a phytoestrogen correct?)
-Spearmint (an anti-androgen correct?)
-Goat's Rue (a phytoestrogen correct?)
-Evening Primrose Oil (an aromatase correct?)

I am not interested in these herbs and why
-Pueraria Mirifica (my body just flat-out doesn't like it I get excess estrogen very quickly no matter how low of a does I start with)
-Saw Palmetto (my hormones are going to be well-balanced soon and I don't think I will need such a strong anti-androgen I am more interested in trying spearmint because it is milder
-Wild Yam, I've read your body can't convert and make use of the phytohormones in it and that it hasn't been determined if it is an aromatase or a phytoestrogen, to me (maybe I haven't been educated yet) it is too confusing of an herb with too many questions and outcomes.

What my Goals Are
In short, lose 60 pounds and maintain my breast size as much as possible, anything less than a C I need to do NBE. I also want to get a larger butt but also larger breasts. (I'm going for a realistic yet exaggerated hourglass look for my body)

I am pretty sure I will be a C cup by the time I lose my last 60 pounds of un-wanted weight. I had very small boobs before I gained weight and I am noticing that my boobs are getting smaller (at first I gained 2 inches but now they are going down again). I think this has to do with the vitex I am taking, but I must take it till mid July to balance the estrogen dominance I got in August 2011.

I want to lose my weight (60 pounds) and maintain my breasts and then after the weight is gone I want to grow my breasts to a D or DD or maybe even a DDD (I know... I'm being selfish ). I might lose the 60 pounds by mid July when I can get off of my balancing vitex, if I can that would be perfect so I can start my NBE not having to worry about anything else.

Isabelle you have mentioned to me before that Goat's Rue is a good phytoestrogen correct? That it works much like Fenugreek in controlling blood sugar and that it might have an effect on losing stomach fat. I am taking CLA and coconut oil for belly fat right now and it seems to be working I am not losing my boobs (at least not much) or my butt but I am losing a lot from my stomach (on a side note I will be using a corset soon too). Have you or anyone heard any good Goat's Rue success stories? How much was taken daily, what were the results and was it the main / only phytoestrogen used or were others involved?

I am also currently taking 5 grams of maca for butt growth. Is that counter-productive to NBE, should I focus on one at a time? So far Maca has been great for my butt-growth! Since maca is a precursor to DHEA will it cancel out phytoestrogens for NBE?

So this is what I am trying to do
I am currently losing weight (with CLA (4 grams) and coconut oil (1 tbsp) I am also taking 5 grams of maca everyday for DHEA precursor for butt growth and 800mg of vitex for hormonal balance due to the estrogen dominance in August 2011. I think I can lose my 60 pounds by July and I'm pretty sure my boobs will go down to a C so I want the D or DD or... DDD haha. Depending, I might not reach my butt goal by then so I might be trying to lose weight still and grow a butt still and then maybe I want to add NBE into that. How would I approach this? Should I finish weight loss first only? Weight loss and butt only? Can I do all three?

What are some good herbs to start with for my NBE, how much should I take of each and why?

[onicemile]

Hi,
I don't think I could help you about herbs (actually I'm using a herbal tea made of fennel, cinnamon chips, licorice root, juniper berries, cloves, cardamom, hops and aniseeds - it's effective without being too strong- but I couldn't explain exact functions of each), I just wanted to make sure that you're still massaging ? I'm sure you can keep approx the same size while losing weight if you massage regularly !

[Isabelle]

Hi Gogirlanime,

In hops, 8-prenylnaringenin is a phyto-estrogen, and xanthohumol is an anti-androgen.

Spearmint is an anti-androgen, yes.

Goat's rue increases prolactin, for swelling. It's not a phyto-estrogen. I have great swelling on 4,500 mg.

Flax seed oil is an aromatase inhibitor. I don't know if EPO is.

Fenugreek is not a phyto-estrogen. It contains a very small amount of isoflavones, which are phyto-estrogens, but the amount is so small that the effect in NBE is negligible. The diosgenin in fenugreek increases progesterone and prolactin.

Maca is a weight gainer, so I'd drop it for now. Try fenugreek: because of its antidiabetic effect, it's a great waist slimmer

[lil_lisa]

I would suggest weight loss first and den NBE

[gogirlanime]

Hi Gogirlanime,

In hops, 8-prenylnaringenin is a phyto-estrogen, and xanthohumol is an anti-androgen.

Spearmint is an anti-androgen, yes.

Goat's rue increases prolactin, for swelling. It's not a phyto-estrogen. I have great swelling on 4,500 mg.

Flax seed oil is an aromatase inhibitor. I don't know if EPO is.

Fenugreek is not a phyto-estrogen. It contains a very small amount of isoflavones, which are phyto-estrogens, but the amount is so small that the effect in NBE is negligible. The diosgenin in fenugreek increases progesterone and prolactin.

Maca is a weight gainer, so I'd drop it for now. Try fenugreek: because of its antidiabetic effect, it's a great waist slimmer

Hi Isabelle!! I love you girl you are the sweetest thank you for helping me!

Please and thank you (if you can)

If you do not mind Isabelle if you have the time could you help me answer some of these questions. Once I have become just as knowledgable as you I will "spread the wealth" and help take the load off of answering questions for new members around here.

I am first trying to understand exactly what each herb is and what it does. I am finding that the information here on BN is confusing. I want to know about all the popular herbs for NBE and understand what compounds, phytonutrients, phytochemicals, and phyto-hormones they have in them so I can give the correct advice and set up myself a plan with the most knowledge under my back so that I can more than likely succeed the first time I try NBE. I am trying to figure out what role everything has in NBE and why you need to take this herb with this herb or why certain combinations work.

If you don't mind would you please correct me on these or tell me what they are

The basics
So I'm not sure exactly what causes breast growth is it phyto-progestins or phyto-estrogens? I hear that phyto-estrogens help store fat in your breasts and that phyto-progestins are what enable breast tissue growth. What role does prolactin have in NBE and what is it? Do you need more progesterone or estrogen for NBE. What ratios of progesterone/estrogen/androgens do you need to achieve NBE. Like do you need 2 parts estrogen 1 part progesterone and 1 part androgen? (I know I am simplifying it but I think you get what I'm asking)

Herbs (terms also at the bottom below "Herbs")

Pueraria Mirifica
This is a phytoestrogen only correct?

Flaxseed oil
Is an aromatase inhibitor, what does that mean exactly? Is flaxseed a phytoestrogen? Is "aromatase inhibitor" another way to say "phytoestrogen"? Or is an aromatase inhibitor mean it blocks the body from making progesterone? Is it an anti-estrogen?

Fenugreek
Fenugreek is not technically a phytoestrogen and is not used as a main source of phytoestrogens during NBE because it has so little correct? It helps increase progesterone in the body and prolactin right?

Fennel
Fennel is a phyto-progestin (plant progesterone) correct? It helps increase the progesterone in your body. It also helps increase prolactin. Is it an anti-estrogen?

Evening Primrose Oil
Evening Primrose Oil is a phyto-progestin correct? Or what is it / what does it do?

Hops
Hops contains phytoestrogens and anti-androgens as you said, correct? It is an anti-androgen that digests into the body to create an estrogen correct?

Wild Yam
This is a phyto-progestin and prolactin correct?

Spearmint
Spearmint is an anti-androgen only correct?

Saw Palmetto
Saw Palmetto is an anti-androgen only correct?

Goat's Rue
Goat's Rue increases prolactin and this is all it has / does correct? Or does it increase progesterone like Fenugreek?

Maca
Maca is an adaptogen that helps the body produce DHEA and that is all it does correct?

Borage oil
Borage oil is a phyto-progestin correct? Is that all it is / does?

Dandelion root
Dandelion root is a phytoestrogen correct? I hear that it helps the liver process hormones. Is this all it does or what is it?

Red Clover
Red clover is a phytoestrogen and a phyto-progestin correct? Or what is it and what does it do?

Black Cohosh
Black Cohosh is a phytoestrogen corrrect or what is it and what does it do?

Dong Quai
Dong Quai is a phyto-progestin or what is it and what does it do?

Blessed Thistle
I don't know anything about this, please explain

Terms (please correct me of anything that isn't right)

You need to take a phytoestrogen, a phyto-progestin, an anti-androgen, something to help with aromatase, and a prolactin-increaser, and usually it is suggested that you use an herb/supplement that increases circulation. Are those all the categories of nutrients you need for NBE? Does everyone need all of them? When might you not need all of them. Is there more to this statement?

Phyto-estrogens
These are "plant estrogens" that mimic / act / are used like human estrogen in the body. Why are these important or not important in NBE and what do they do during NBE?

Phyto-progestins
This is "plant progesterone" that mimics / acts / is used like human progesterone in the body. Why are these important or not important in NBE and what do they do during NBE?

Aromatase
What does this mean exactly? Why is this important or not important in NBE and what does it do during NBE?

Androgens
What is this exactly (I have an idea) and what does it do? Why are these important or not important in NBE and what do they do during NBE?

DHEA
Exactly how does it work? Why is this important or not important in NBE and what does it do during NBE?

Prolactin
What is it and what does it do / how does it work Why is this important or not important in NBE and what does it do during NBE?

Adaptogen
What is this and how does it work?

[Isabelle]

Gee Gogirlanime,

This will really take time to answer. Please read my program thread. I know, it's long, but what I learned is there, with links to the scientific literature. Learn to use the search functions: everything you ask is on the board, really.

The basics
So I'm not sure exactly what causes breast growth is it phyto-progestins or phyto-estrogens? I hear that phyto-estrogens help store fat in your breasts and that phyto-progestins are what enable breast tissue growth. What role does prolactin have in NBE and what is it? Do you need more progesterone or estrogen for NBE. What ratios of progesterone/estrogen/androgens do you need to achieve NBE. Like do you need 2 parts estrogen 1 part progesterone and 1 part androgen? (I know I am simplifying it but I think you get what I'm asking)

Phyto-estrogens grow the milk ducts, and phyto-progestins grow glandular and alveolar tissue. You can actually see it: teenage girls get conical breasts from estrogens, and progesterone rounds the breasts out in adult women. Prolactin is a hormone that starts milk production, so it causes swelling. Check Eve M's program for the ratios: it's well balanced.

Herbs (terms also at the bottom below "Herbs")

Pueraria Mirifica
This is a phytoestrogen only correct?

It also contains an anti-androgen, β-sitosterol.

Flaxseed oil
Is an aromatase inhibitor, what does that mean exactly? Is flaxseed a phytoestrogen? Is "aromatase inhibitor" another way to say "phytoestrogen"? Or is an aromatase inhibitor mean it blocks the body from making progesterone? Is it an anti-estrogen?

An aromatase inhibitor stops the production of estrogens from testosterone. Flax seed is a very weak aromatase inhibitor. Flax seed also contains lignans, which are a class of phyto-estrogens. Aromatase inhibitors and phyto-estrogens are different things. An anti-estrogen is something different too: it binds to the estrogen receptor without activating it.

Fenugreek
Fenugreek is not technically a phytoestrogen and is not used as a main source of phytoestrogens during NBE because it has so little correct? It helps increase progesterone in the body and prolactin right?

Yes, you're getting it.

Fennel
Fennel is a phyto-progestin (plant progesterone) correct? It helps increase the progesterone in your body. It also helps increase prolactin. Is it an anti-estrogen?

I don't know if fennel increases natural progesterone. And I don't know if there are anti-estrogens in fennel. The other statements are correct.

Evening Primrose Oil
Evening Primrose Oil is a phyto-progestin correct? Or what is it / what does it do?

As far as I know, it is only a source of omega-3 fatty acids.

Hops
Hops contains phytoestrogens and anti-androgens as you said, correct? It is an anti-androgen that digests into the body to create an estrogen correct?

Yes. If you drink the tea on an empty stomach, you get more of the anti-androgen effect. If you eat it with a light meal, you get the maximum phyto-estrogen effect.

Wild Yam
This is a phyto-progestin and prolactin correct?

Wild yam does three things:
1. It increases progesterone and prolactin, but it is not a phyto-progestin.
2. It contains an anti-androgen, β-sitosterol.
3. It slows down the breakdown of estrone, one of the body's own estrogens.

Spearmint
Spearmint is an anti-androgen only correct?

It is an anti-androgen, but I don't know if it's only that. Peppermint, for instance, is also estrogenic.

Saw Palmetto
Saw Palmetto is an anti-androgen only correct?

It's used on the board for that, yes, but I remember an article saying it's an anti-estrogen too. I'm not sure.

Goat's Rue
Goat's Rue increases prolactin and this is all it has / does correct? Or does it increase progesterone like Fenugreek?

It increases prolactin without increasing progesterone.

Maca
Maca is an adaptogen that helps the body produce DHEA and that is all it does correct?

All I know is that it acts as if it increases DHEA.

Borage oil
Borage oil is a phyto-progestin correct? Is that all it is / does?

It's an anti-androgen.

Dandelion root
Dandelion root is a phytoestrogen correct? I hear that it helps the liver process hormones. Is this all it does or what is it?

As far as I know, yes, but experience on the board is limited.

Red Clover
Red clover is a phytoestrogen and a phyto-progestin correct? Or what is it and what does it do?

Correct.

Black Cohosh
Black Cohosh is a phytoestrogen corrrect or what is it and what does it do?

It's not an NBE herb.

Dong Quai
Dong Quai is a phyto-progestin or what is it and what does it do?

Nothing.

Blessed Thistle
I don't know anything about this, please explain

Phyto-estrogen.

Terms (please correct me of anything that isn't right)

You need to take a phytoestrogen, a phyto-progestin, an anti-androgen, something to help with aromatase, and a prolactin-increaser, and usually it is suggested that you use an herb/supplement that increases circulation. Are those all the categories of nutrients you need for NBE? Does everyone need all of them? When might you not need all of them. Is there more to this statement?

I manage 12 hormone functions in my program. The basics are a phyto-estrogen, a phyto-progestin or an herb that increases the body's own progesterone, an anti-androgen, and an herb that increases prolactin. Do not take an aromatase inhibitor.
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=37690#pid37690
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=37828#pid37828

Phyto-estrogens
These are "plant estrogens" that mimic / act / are used like human estrogen in the body. Why are these important or not important in NBE and what do they do during NBE?

They bind to the estrogen receptors on the cell walls, and they activate the receptor. Phyto-estrogens grow the milk ducts.

Phyto-progestins
This is "plant progesterone" that mimics / acts / is used like human progesterone in the body. Why are these important or not important in NBE and what do they do during NBE?

Phyto-progestins grow the milk glands and the alveolas.

Aromatase
What does this mean exactly? Why is this important or not important in NBE and what does it do during NBE?

Aromatase is an enzyme that makes estrogens from testosterone. Do not touch it in NBE. Just let it do its job.

Androgens
What is this exactly (I have an idea) and what does it do? Why are these important or not important in NBE and what do they do during NBE?

They create masculine features. You use an anti-androgen if you notice scalp hair loss, body and facial hair growth, or acne.

DHEA
Exactly how does it work? Why is this important or not important in NBE and what does it do during NBE?

The body makes testosterone from DHEA.

Prolactin
What is it and what does it do / how does it work Why is this important or not important in NBE and what does it do during NBE?

It is a hormone that starts milk production. So it causes swelling. Constant swelling becomes growth, because stretched tissue grows.

Adaptogen
What is this and how does it work?

In my opinion, they don't exist and they don't work. It is an old belief from antiquity, that an herb exists, the Panacaea, that fixes all ailments and leaves all the healthy bits alone. The idea was given up in the 16th century, but it still works well if you want to sell any supplement in the shop.

[Pansy-Mae]

Adaptogen
What is this and how does it work?

In my opinion, they don't exist and they don't work. It is an old belief from antiquity, that an herb exists, the Panacaea, that fixes all ailments and leaves all the healthy bits alone. The idea was given up in the 16th century, but it still works well if you want to sell any supplement in the shop.

Just out of interest, you might like to take a look at the the Wikipedia ( yes I know!) item on Adaptogens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptogen

According to them it was invented by the Russians in 1947 and the concept is now officially accepted by both the FDA and the EU. However like you I still have my doubts, personally.

[Isabelle]

Yes, Pansy-Mae, thank you for the link,

I did find two publications supporting effects that could be called adaptogenic: one suggesting maca increases DHEA only if it's too low, and one showing it reverses the effects of an artificial increase of testosterone:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=42189#pid42189

For me, that's not enough to prove that it would normalize all the hormones after external disturbance. I do admit there are a lot of publications that found no change in normal hormone levels after taking maca:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=32411#pid32411
This supports that at least the flip side of the definition of an adaptogen, which requires that it does not disturb normal hormone levels, is well documented.

[Angela531]

This posting has been soooo very helpful to me! Thanks for posting your questions gogirlanime. Isabelle I was wondering if you could also help in explaining when is the best time to take these herbs. That's the problem I'm having. I don't know how to cycle my herbs. I've read through the boards but I'm having a hard time understanding how to cycle the herbs. I'm currently taking fenugreek, saw palmetto, MSM, Wonderup, and collagen. Any help/advice you could give would be awesome!

[Isabelle]

Hi Angela,

Look at the drawing on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_cycle

You can take the herbs that you use all month long, but if you do want to cycle, note that progesterone is zero between day 27 and day 11. So stop fenugreek during these days, or go to a very low dose if stopping it gives you symptoms of estrogen dominance (headaches, foggy thinking, low libido, nausea, depressed mood).

Also note that estrogen is at its lowest from day 25 to day 5. Stop Wonderup during those days, or go to your lowest dose. Take your highest dose on day 11, and stop it again on day 12 until after ovulation, because the sharp decrease of estrogen that starts on day 12 triggers ovulation.