[mochaccino]

Vitex increases progesterone. It's not a phytoprogestin. It actually increases real progesterone production.

[AbiDrew85]

Vitex increases progesterone. It's not a phytoprogestin. It actually increases real progesterone production.

This ^

In women especially. It's actually got an interesting combination of effects, as an adaptogen. If you take a very low dose it should do what you need. I'm not using it anymore mainly because PC is easier to control levels with and cheaper. Plus vitex also affects prolactin, whilst PC does not.

But if you can't get PC... Then vitex is the next best thing. Just be careful with it. Too much and you WILL spike your prolactin levels as well. Leaky boobs would be the least of the effects THAT would have!

[mochaccino]

I'm confused. I though I heard that it that it suppresses prolactin, but I might have misunderstood. Where did you get that info Abi?

*Edit* Oh, I see. It raised prolactin at low doses and lowers it at high doses. Is that right?

[TibetanPrincess]

@Mocha,

Def shouldn't increase prolactin as progesterone generally competes with prolactin. I always noticed more firmness with vitex not in a liquidy kind of way.

[AbiDrew85]

I'm confused. I though I heard that it that it suppresses prolactin, but I might have misunderstood. Where did you get that info Abi?

*Edit* Oh, I see. It raised prolactin at low doses and lowers it at high doses. Is that right?

@Mocha,

Def shouldn't increase prolactin as progesterone generally competes with prolactin. I always noticed more firmness with vitex not in a liquidy kind of way.

Oh, I may have had it inverted. Yes tibetan, at certain doses it has been observed that vitex can raise prolactin levels as well. It'll also lower them at other certain doses when the progestogenic effect is strong enough... Anyways... I really just don't particularly care for "magic" herbs like that, personally. If its effects aren't a known constant quantity which is easily measurable, and with a formulaic effect from dose changes, then I don't particularly wish to use it myself. All studies regarding the adaptive effects of vitex seem to indicate that dose control is wild and unpredictable. My own experience from using it mainly for the mild opiate it also contains did little to change my opinion. For hormonal purposes - it's effective if you have no alternative way to raise progesterone, but it's not ideal.

Personal experience with vitex: I loved the opiate and I certainly enjoyed the progestogenic properties, but I did get squishy breast and some lactation at times and was constantly having to fiddle with dosing to maintain desired effects and avoid undesired side effects.

That said... I really can't think of any thing else that's a reasonable way of raising progesterone outside of PC, which prismatic apparently can't get.

And I was using it for the opiate, so it might not need as much playing to maintain the progesterone benefits and avoid the potential for prolactin increases.

[AbiDrew85]

I didn't know mint was an anti-androgen. That might actually be the best option. Is it any different than a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor such as saw palmetto?

They're very different. Mint is primarily a receptor blocker while saw palmetto is primarily a production blocker.

If you have no indications of high T, most likely you would not benefit from saw palmetto anyways, because it blocks the production only of the most powerful t - dht. But free T is all it takes to interfere with breast development.

If you block reception of that free T with mint, then you should free your estrogens and progesterone to do their work more efficiently.

I would not recommend anything that could actually prevent free T from being produced, because that'll short you on E as well. And I'd hesitate to suggest a pro-aromatase either, because you're really not out of range at all, just on the low end of in-range.

[TibetanPrincess]

I'm confused. I though I heard that it that it suppresses prolactin, but I might have misunderstood. Where did you get that info Abi?

*Edit* Oh, I see. It raised prolactin at low doses and lowers it at high doses. Is that right?

@Mocha,

Def shouldn't increase prolactin as progesterone generally competes with prolactin. I always noticed more firmness with vitex not in a liquidy kind of way.

Oh, I may have had it inverted. Yes tibetan, at certain doses it has been observed that vitex can raise prolactin levels as well. It'll also lower them at other certain doses when the progestogenic effect is strong enough... Anyways... I really just don't particularly care for "magic" herbs like that, personally. If its effects aren't a known constant quantity which is easily measurable, and with a formulaic effect from dose changes, then I don't particularly wish to use it myself. All studies regarding the adaptive effects of vitex seem to indicate that dose control is wild and unpredictable. My own experience from using it mainly for the mild opiate it also contains did little to change my opinion. For hormonal purposes - it's effective if you have no alternative way to raise progesterone, but it's not ideal.

Personal experience with vitex: I loved the opiate and I certainly enjoyed the progestogenic properties, but I did get squishy breast and some lactation at times and was constantly having to fiddle with dosing to maintain desired effects and avoid undesired side effects.

That said... I really can't think of any thing else that's a reasonable way of raising progesterone outside of PC, which prismatic apparently can't get.

And I was using it for the opiate, so it might not need as much playing to maintain the progesterone benefits and avoid the potential for prolactin increases.

You are sure the lactation has not been attributed by something else you may have been taking along with vitex?

If not, what dose where you at with vitex? I am reading low will induce while higher will reduce. I have no idea what dose would be ideal for lowering prolactin. Interesting you have lactated on it.

[prismatic]

I'm confused. I though I heard that it that it suppresses prolactin, but I might have misunderstood. Where did you get that info Abi?

*Edit* Oh, I see. It raised prolactin at low doses and lowers it at high doses. Is that right?

@Mocha,

Def shouldn't increase prolactin as progesterone generally competes with prolactin. I always noticed more firmness with vitex not in a liquidy kind of way.

Oh, I may have had it inverted. Yes tibetan, at certain doses it has been observed that vitex can raise prolactin levels as well. It'll also lower them at other certain doses when the progestogenic effect is strong enough... Anyways... I really just don't particularly care for "magic" herbs like that, personally. If its effects aren't a known constant quantity which is easily measurable, and with a formulaic effect from dose changes, then I don't particularly wish to use it myself. All studies regarding the adaptive effects of vitex seem to indicate that dose control is wild and unpredictable. My own experience from using it mainly for the mild opiate it also contains did little to change my opinion. For hormonal purposes - it's effective if you have no alternative way to raise progesterone, but it's not ideal.

Personal experience with vitex: I loved the opiate and I certainly enjoyed the progestogenic properties, but I did get squishy breast and some lactation at times and was constantly having to fiddle with dosing to maintain desired effects and avoid undesired side effects.

That said... I really can't think of any thing else that's a reasonable way of raising progesterone outside of PC, which prismatic apparently can't get.

And I was using it for the opiate, so it might not need as much playing to maintain the progesterone benefits and avoid the potential for prolactin increases.

How much vitex were you taking? And were you doing any massaging or other manual stimulation at the time?

I've ordered PC from Swanson's after reading (http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=12821 ) that jiberish had gotten it through customs. I've also ordered the chasteberry/vitex anyway, seeing as they always seem to check my packages...

I may end up taking a low dose of saw palmetto to see if it helps with the acne I've been getting on my chest in the past two weeks. I'm not sure if it is hormone-related or just because I've been sweating so much. I picked up a chamomile & spearmint tea blend. I'll see how it goes. It's only 35% spearmint, so I might do two cups a day.

Went with Ainterol for PM. I wish I could take something to increase aromatase, since it seems like my T is not being converted. The only things I could find that would possibly raise it are alchohol and Chinese peony, which has proven difficult to obtain short of growing it myself. Tried to think of any aromatase inhibitors I might have been inadvertently consuming. Apart from honey and red wine, I couldn't come up with anything that would be part of a normal diet, so I guess I'm just naturally low on it?

Hope this works for me. I'm so eager to ditch my Tanner IV, if that's even possible. I've been stuck with them for 8 years!

[AbiDrew85]

It ranged because of what I was using it for. And I honestly can't remember what my dose was at the times that I lactated. It'd range from as low as 400mg twice a day to as high as four times that thrice a day.

I wasn't doing any intentional manual stimulation, but some rubbing through clothes was normal at that time because even the best fitting sports bras would still move around a little while I was doing grounds work.

As for being sure it couldn't be attributed to anything else: At the point when I changed my goals from controlling depression to feminization, I added licorice and soy. I'd been on sp already to arrest my male-pattern that had already gotten started. When it was just sp and vitex, I was experiencing the occasional lactation, and it didn't change when I added licorice and soy. And afaik, out of all of that, only vitex has the potential for it.

Prismatic:

Good luck! I hope you get your PC through customs! I'm in the USA where our customs tends to be more relaxed and I STILL have a package being held ransom by the FDA until they know more about what's contained in it. Bastards. All just because I wanted to buy my PM in bulk from Thailand.

I really honestly doubt you have a serious enough aromatase problem to consider taking a pro-aromatase. That can seriously be a dangerous thing to play with for genetic girls. It's amazingly powerful stuff and you could inadvertently bring your T down to dangerous levels. At the least, if you DO try it, don't take EITHER sp or mint or any other anti-androgen at the same time. And try a VERY low dose for a month, get retested, if necessary raise it VERY slightly, etc.

The reason "alcohol" is noted for it is actually beer and such which contains hops. It's the herb hops that's the pro-aromatase, as well as a fairly strong phyto. If you use hops, don't use pm.

Heh... I had no clue honey could be an aromatase antagonist. I love honey... especially in my tea... IMO, tea is simply unpalatable without honey.

Me, I only just entered Tanner IV and hope to be in it for a good long time! That's where the majority of the growth happens, and once you hit V, that's basically it, the end, no more. The only other potential for additional real growth at that point is either pregnancy, or simulating the hormone fluctuations of pregnancy. And that one can actually go both ways, depending.

[prismatic]

Heh... I had no clue honey could be an aromatase antagonist. I love honey... especially in my tea... IMO, tea is simply unpalatable without honey.

I don't think the amount used in tea would be enough to make any difference, that is IF even a large quantity would make a difference. Honey contains chrysin, which supposedly inhibits aromatase. However, most of the studies done on it have shown it to be ineffective. It is still sold as an aromatase inhibitor though, which is why I try to avoid ingesting it or applying it anywhere on my body.

I think it's kind of like the caffeine thing in NBE, where it probably doesn't hurt, but there is a small chance that it does...