03-03-2016, 05:44 PM
quick question, Whats Stalling in NBE??
December 27 2007 at 3:30 AM bonnie (no login)
Hey girls,
im a little confused here. Im not sure what ramping and stalling is. Im on herbs so i wonder if these terms would apply to me. Plz help. Thx!
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: quick question, Whats Stalling in NBE??
December 27 2007, 10:14 AM
Stalling is where you have too many phytoestrogens snd your body becomes less receptive to them. First of all if you get to a level where receptors are using phytoestrogens instead of the endogenous estrogen produced by your body you will actually give yourself an estrogen lowering effect as the phytoestrogens are a lot weaker. If you go further you will get to a point where you body downregulates receptors so you either have less of them or they don't work so well (not done much reading on this bit!) such that your body is less receptive to any estrogens - this can take months to years to resolve and although it will prevent further growth even if you switched to something like BO / PM your boobs shouldn't actually shrink.
Because all the doses are pretty much guess work and we want to avoid stalling most people start with a fairly low dose (or copy someone else) then if nothing happens having given it a good trial of at least 3-6 months they take a higher dosage.
Bonnie
(no login)
Re: quick question, Whats Stalling in NBE??
December 27 2007, 8:56 PM
ok thanks. So is ramping when you up the dose then?
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
quick question, Whats Stalling in NBE??
December 28 2007, 5:19 PM
-not one of the "girls" but thought I would answer anyway-
To understand ramping up there are a few other things that should be covered first in order to give a complete answer.
1. Cell receptors become more sensitive when they are deprived.
This is accomplished naturally in the menstrual cycle. It can be simulated by cycling and ramping herb levels up and down.
2. Hormone levels during different phases of the menstrual cycle.
In the case of estrogen, the level drops off sharply in the last few days and is at its lowest level in the first 5 days as it climbs to its highest level at about day 14.
3. Growing Pains.
When many women grow, they notice "growing pains." This is any sign of growth that is noticed by physical feeling. Heaviness, swelling, deep aches, itches, sometimes painful to the touch. These are signs that the herbs are working.
See the "I am actually starting to feel something!" thread:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/th...mething%21
4. Growing = difference in size. This includes shrinking, believe it or not. There is a lot of fluctuation while growing, therefore it is not uncommon to shrink slightly (even a cup size for smaller sizes) before hitting a growth spurt.
5. Being in tune with your body. This is nothing more than being aware of how you feel in relation to what you are taking and doing otherwise (with exercise and diet, for example). It's simply being contiously aware of what your body is telling you. No gadgets are required, just a brain.
Ramping up is when you start at a predetermined day in your cycle, usually day 1 because estrogen levels are lowest and you can get the best sensitivity at this time, and you slowly raise the dosages until you feel "growing pains." Once you experience this, you are in the right dosage range to get growth but not stall. Ramping can be anything from 200mg per day to 500mg per day. There are maximums that you do not exceed depending on the herb and the size that you currently are then evaluating. Evaluation is constant.
Here is one schedule of ramping up. This was done using 500mg capsules.
Day...FG...SP...WY
1.......1.....0.....0
2.......2.....0.....0
3.......3.....0.....0
4.......3.....0.....0
5.......3.....1.....0
6.......3.....2.....0
7.......3.....3.....0
8.......3.....3.....0
9.......3.....3.....1
10.....3.....3.....2
11.....3.....3.....3
12.....3.....3.....3
13.....3.....3.....3 Stay at this level for a week or so and evaluate any feelings of growth.
14.....3.....3.....3
15.....3.....3.....3
16.....3.....3.....3
17.....3.....3.....3
18 Skip this day.
19.....3.....3.....3 If no signs of growth, resume. If signs of growth, go only slightly further.
20.....4.....3.....3
21.....5.....3.....3
22.....6.....3.....3
etc.
Regarding "day 18." Skipping this day is to facilitate the LH spike and to clear receptors. It is not always day 18 for everyone but it's the best guess because it is really more of a prediction. This day is calculated from the total number of days from the previous cycle minus 14 days. So, if you have a 28 day cycle, 28 - 14 is 14. You would take nothing on day 14 in this case. It also facilitates the slight drop in estrogen just before it levels out. [Is there a way to post a graph?]
Stalling is when you have taken enough herbs to activate your negative feedback system, which is part of the endocrine system. In this case it includes the ovaries, the pituitary and the hypothalamus glands. There are others involved, but the simple explanation is that your body thinks it has too much and stops producing.
Downregulation is a receptor sensitivity issue at the cellular level and can be fixed by depravation.
Therefore, a test to see if you are stalled is to stop taking everything all at once and observe if you feel growing pains during the following 5 to 7 days. If you feel growing pains the next day, you were barely stalled and need to ramp up slow to a smaller dosage. If you feel growing pains 5 days later, you were very stalled. Again, ramp up slowly. It is a constant adjustment.
Cycling herbs and the other things taken is a good way to keep the body guessing, as is alternating things from month to month and quarter to quarter. A great example of this is Surf's program. See also "Timing of Programs!" thread.
Good luck, I hope that this is helpful.
Wahaika
December 27 2007 at 3:30 AM bonnie (no login)
Hey girls,
im a little confused here. Im not sure what ramping and stalling is. Im on herbs so i wonder if these terms would apply to me. Plz help. Thx!
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: quick question, Whats Stalling in NBE??
December 27 2007, 10:14 AM
Stalling is where you have too many phytoestrogens snd your body becomes less receptive to them. First of all if you get to a level where receptors are using phytoestrogens instead of the endogenous estrogen produced by your body you will actually give yourself an estrogen lowering effect as the phytoestrogens are a lot weaker. If you go further you will get to a point where you body downregulates receptors so you either have less of them or they don't work so well (not done much reading on this bit!) such that your body is less receptive to any estrogens - this can take months to years to resolve and although it will prevent further growth even if you switched to something like BO / PM your boobs shouldn't actually shrink.
Because all the doses are pretty much guess work and we want to avoid stalling most people start with a fairly low dose (or copy someone else) then if nothing happens having given it a good trial of at least 3-6 months they take a higher dosage.
Bonnie
(no login)
Re: quick question, Whats Stalling in NBE??
December 27 2007, 8:56 PM
ok thanks. So is ramping when you up the dose then?
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
quick question, Whats Stalling in NBE??
December 28 2007, 5:19 PM
-not one of the "girls" but thought I would answer anyway-
To understand ramping up there are a few other things that should be covered first in order to give a complete answer.
1. Cell receptors become more sensitive when they are deprived.
This is accomplished naturally in the menstrual cycle. It can be simulated by cycling and ramping herb levels up and down.
2. Hormone levels during different phases of the menstrual cycle.
In the case of estrogen, the level drops off sharply in the last few days and is at its lowest level in the first 5 days as it climbs to its highest level at about day 14.
3. Growing Pains.
When many women grow, they notice "growing pains." This is any sign of growth that is noticed by physical feeling. Heaviness, swelling, deep aches, itches, sometimes painful to the touch. These are signs that the herbs are working.
See the "I am actually starting to feel something!" thread:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/th...mething%21
4. Growing = difference in size. This includes shrinking, believe it or not. There is a lot of fluctuation while growing, therefore it is not uncommon to shrink slightly (even a cup size for smaller sizes) before hitting a growth spurt.
5. Being in tune with your body. This is nothing more than being aware of how you feel in relation to what you are taking and doing otherwise (with exercise and diet, for example). It's simply being contiously aware of what your body is telling you. No gadgets are required, just a brain.
Ramping up is when you start at a predetermined day in your cycle, usually day 1 because estrogen levels are lowest and you can get the best sensitivity at this time, and you slowly raise the dosages until you feel "growing pains." Once you experience this, you are in the right dosage range to get growth but not stall. Ramping can be anything from 200mg per day to 500mg per day. There are maximums that you do not exceed depending on the herb and the size that you currently are then evaluating. Evaluation is constant.
Here is one schedule of ramping up. This was done using 500mg capsules.
Day...FG...SP...WY
1.......1.....0.....0
2.......2.....0.....0
3.......3.....0.....0
4.......3.....0.....0
5.......3.....1.....0
6.......3.....2.....0
7.......3.....3.....0
8.......3.....3.....0
9.......3.....3.....1
10.....3.....3.....2
11.....3.....3.....3
12.....3.....3.....3
13.....3.....3.....3 Stay at this level for a week or so and evaluate any feelings of growth.
14.....3.....3.....3
15.....3.....3.....3
16.....3.....3.....3
17.....3.....3.....3
18 Skip this day.
19.....3.....3.....3 If no signs of growth, resume. If signs of growth, go only slightly further.
20.....4.....3.....3
21.....5.....3.....3
22.....6.....3.....3
etc.
Regarding "day 18." Skipping this day is to facilitate the LH spike and to clear receptors. It is not always day 18 for everyone but it's the best guess because it is really more of a prediction. This day is calculated from the total number of days from the previous cycle minus 14 days. So, if you have a 28 day cycle, 28 - 14 is 14. You would take nothing on day 14 in this case. It also facilitates the slight drop in estrogen just before it levels out. [Is there a way to post a graph?]
Stalling is when you have taken enough herbs to activate your negative feedback system, which is part of the endocrine system. In this case it includes the ovaries, the pituitary and the hypothalamus glands. There are others involved, but the simple explanation is that your body thinks it has too much and stops producing.
Downregulation is a receptor sensitivity issue at the cellular level and can be fixed by depravation.
Therefore, a test to see if you are stalled is to stop taking everything all at once and observe if you feel growing pains during the following 5 to 7 days. If you feel growing pains the next day, you were barely stalled and need to ramp up slow to a smaller dosage. If you feel growing pains 5 days later, you were very stalled. Again, ramp up slowly. It is a constant adjustment.
Cycling herbs and the other things taken is a good way to keep the body guessing, as is alternating things from month to month and quarter to quarter. A great example of this is Surf's program. See also "Timing of Programs!" thread.
Good luck, I hope that this is helpful.
Wahaika
) In the meantime, I'm sure Googling lignans, aromatase, testosterone, and estrogen would give some info. 
