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The Breast Growth Hormones, including IGF, HGF and how macromastia happens
#11
(03-12-2016, 06:19 AM)Lotus Wrote:
(02-12-2016, 02:54 PM)surferjoe2007 Wrote: Besides very high IGF and HGF in macromastia cases, moderately higher IGF is found in women with large boobs too.  I also read about large chested women exercising their back, using good posture and so on to avoid any back pain.  Plus 32H's are only 2 pounds a boob, so even they aren't a major concern.  5-6 lbs each is 32O (or 36M, etc.):
http://kdwb.iheart.com/onair/the-dave-ry...-12418095/


A radio station? that's what we're using for scientific information?, um ok, whatever. Even using their information (which doesn't measure extended cup size DD/DDD - GG/ HHH etc.......is as follows). If you had large breasts you'd might think twice about saying it's not a major concern, all breasts aren't (and weigh) the same. 

Ha it didn't seem like a subject of much difficulty or controversy, so it's not like it needs a good source.  Is this better?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bra_size#C...ast_weight
Probably where that radio station got it from.  It seems like they calculated it.
So they assumed 34J or 32K is the cutoff in that discussion.  That sounds reasonable.  Keep in mind they said 1.5 kg per breast, so 3 kg total.  The chart uses the total.  Still even the flat chested have back problems and exercise, stretching and posture can benefit everyone.  And the torso in general and stomach are much heavier.  In fact obesity is a much greater contributor to back trouble than a couple pounds of boobs.  Even if the stomach has a little less leverage, it has way more weight.

Half your weight is in your torso in fact and not being upright makes a big difference.  Let's assume for simplicity a pair of 34J's are sticking out 5 inches from the torso, or 2.5 inches in their middle, with a weight of 6.2 lbs.  And let's say that person has a 62 lb. torso with a center of gravity half as high as the breasts, measured from where the back bends at the bottom.  That's 10x1/2=5 times the effect, so if that person leaned forward even 0.5 inch (2.5/5) at the middle her torso would put more strain on her back than her breasts do.  The average torso is about 18.75", or 9.375" at the center.  ATAN(0.5/9.375)=0.053 radians ~= 3 degrees.  A quick google suggested that you not slouch more than 20 degrees from vertical.  Posture information I found in general spoke in tens of degrees, not single digit degrees.  The weight of those breasts is not that much compared to, for example, a minor slouch.  Actually when a large chested woman hates her breasts and slouches to hide them, the slouching itself can do a lot of back damage.  Remember correct posture involves sticking out your chest.

Pullups have made an amazing difference for my back btw.  No more troubles.  I tried all these adjustments to my chair, fancy chair, correcting posture, and so on with mediocre success.  Then got a stronger back and poof zero discomfort.

Whoa, that turned into a bit of a crazy tangent.  Anyone can just stop or reduce NBE if they don't want to be over a certain size.  Same goes for IGF, it's not an all or nothing thing.  For the sake of good health it's probably best to use a low amount.  Macromastia merely illustrates its potential, in that it is not a minor factor and should perhaps be considered alongside major hormones.
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#12
Looked more into transdermal methods for spot applications.  Long story short there is a scary (though not horrible) way to do it.  Non-scary ways might spread a little but most of it might stay in the same spot.  DMSO is safe but the spot needs to be super sanitized and bare until it's 100% dry because it's like a black hole sucking everything into your body, even bacteria and clothing dye.  Butylene glycol is a lot saner (and also has almost no toxicity), but does anyone know if it's good enough to get IGF into the body?  IGF is a big molecule.  A low dose of IGF good for your entire body anyway, so it may be simpler to stick to the old method of under the tongue.  

Another challenge was finding velvet deer that isn't diluted bunk.  In at least a couple forum threads this one was used successfully for other purposes:
http://www.epuresolutions.com/pro-igf-350-600-1100/
Review:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplemen...s-igf.html

As you can see it's normally a male supplement for muscle gains.  Besides the direct effect on muscle it can also raise the body's testosterone production a little (even in women), so it is probably best combined with an anti-testosterone substance.  You can google for places that sell it.  It's really expensive though.
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#13
(03-12-2016, 05:05 AM)surferjoe2007 Wrote:
(02-12-2016, 06:04 PM)peekaboobs Wrote: My wife had a quick noticeable gain when she was using cinnamon oil in her massage.  I don't know if that was the major factor, but reading these links and studies pin pointing to how much IGF seriously affects breast growth, it could very well have had a major contributing effect.  We've used Deer Velvet some since as well, but not localized and of much consistency.  This now makes me wonder about it as an extract and maybe even combined with DMSO.  I don't know anything much about DMSO though, other than it's ability to penetrate.  Something about this sounds scary too (not just the macromastia part lol).


What else was she massaging with at the time besides cinnamon?  Was it immediate swelling from the hotness of cinnamon, i.e. within minutes or hours, or was there also a lot of additional growth in the days that followed?

From memory:
It was over the span of 7 days or so, starting at the very tail end of follicular stage.  Ainterol PM cream massage for the first couple of days in the morning, followed by extended evening massage that for the most part included Flaxseed oil with a mixture of Fennel, Fenugreek, Saw Palmetto and Pumpkinseed oil (emptied softgels), Wild Yam, L-Arginine, Evening Primrose, Cinnamon Leaf oil, and Black pepper oil.  Her tits initially blew up huge one of the nights, but maintained a larger size  throughout the month and onward.  It was painful over the next week plus, including her nipples, which were swollen and very sensitive.  I remember her worried her nipples were going to grow permanently huge (I wasn't complaining about the size to be honest), but it did turn out to be temporary.  We stopped with all massages and Supplements for at least a couple of weeks if I remember right and she maintained a fuller bust.

I don't know if it was a fluke or what.  I don't know what exactly to contribute the result to, if any certain thing.  She also was late that month and hasn't been otherwise.  We are going to try something similar this month and see what happens.  The timing is right.  We added Cinnamon last night to the massage, along with Chocolate Soy Milk cocktail including Deer Velvet and PM powder (yum lol).  The massage oil also has White Peony, in which we've been using regularly anyways.

If I think of anything different regarding the past experience, I'll update.
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#14
(03-12-2016, 10:21 PM)peekaboobs Wrote:
(03-12-2016, 05:05 AM)surferjoe2007 Wrote:
(02-12-2016, 06:04 PM)peekaboobs Wrote: My wife had a quick noticeable gain when she was using cinnamon oil in her massage.  I don't know if that was the major factor, but reading these links and studies pin pointing to how much IGF seriously affects breast growth, it could very well have had a major contributing effect.  We've used Deer Velvet some since as well, but not localized and of much consistency.  This now makes me wonder about it as an extract and maybe even combined with DMSO.  I don't know anything much about DMSO though, other than it's ability to penetrate.  Something about this sounds scary too (not just the macromastia part lol).


What else was she massaging with at the time besides cinnamon?  Was it immediate swelling from the hotness of cinnamon, i.e. within minutes or hours, or was there also a lot of additional growth in the days that followed?

From memory:
It was over the span of 7 days or so, starting at the very tail end of follicular stage.  Ainterol PM cream massage for the first couple of days in the morning, followed by extended evening massage that for the most part included Flaxseed oil with a mixture of Fennel, Fenugreek, Saw Palmetto and Pumpkinseed oil (emptied softgels), Wild Yam, L-Arginine, Evening Primrose, Cinnamon Leaf oil, and Black pepper oil.  Her tits initially blew up huge one of the nights, but maintained a larger size  throughout the month and onward.  It was painful over the next week plus, including her nipples, which were swollen and very sensitive.  I remember her worried her nipples were going to grow permanently huge (I wasn't complaining about the size to be honest), but it did turn out to be temporary.  We stopped with all massages and Supplements for at least a couple of weeks if I remember right and she maintained a fuller bust.

I don't know if it was a fluke or what.  I don't know what exactly to contribute the result to, if any certain thing.  She also was late that month and hasn't been otherwise.  We are going to try something similar this month and see what happens.  The timing is right.  We added Cinnamon last night to the massage, along with Chocolate Soy Milk cocktail including Deer Velvet and PM powder (yum lol).  The massage oil also has White Peony, in which we've been using regularly anyways.

If I think of anything different regarding the past experience,  I'll update.

Thanks.  Are the other herbs oils or powders or extracts?  Swelling from irritation/hotness should only last a few hours, so maintaining the size indicates that it is not merely irritation.

I think deer velvet is supposed to be taken under the tongue because IGF is destroyed by digestion.  Or you might try it topically with butylene glycol and see if that works.  Or see above cautions if you mess with DMSO.
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#15
surferjoe2007
(03-12-2016, 10:31 PM)surferjoe2007 Wrote: Thanks.  Are the other herbs oils or powders or extracts?  Swelling from irritation/hotness should only last a few hours, so maintaining the size indicates that it is not merely irritation.

I think deer velvet is supposed to be taken under the tongue because IGF is destroyed by digestion.  Or you might try it topically with butylene glycol and see if that works.  Or see above cautions if you mess with DMSO.


The only powder in the original massage was Fennel.  Fenugreek and WidYam extract from Greenbush.  L-Arginine liquid, everything else oil form.  I could come up with general amounts, but will take more time and also wouldn't really be correct overall anyways, since she massaged so much more than I had planned for..  I remember making out what would be a weeks worth and her doing it in in a few days.   Now I just topically dose each time to get the "correct" mixture.

She tried the DV under the tongue and wasn't a fan.  I only have it in powder form for now.  I could maybe take the current supply and make an extract, or just source new.
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#16
(03-12-2016, 11:01 PM)peekaboobs Wrote: surferjoe2007
(03-12-2016, 10:31 PM)surferjoe2007 Wrote: Thanks.  Are the other herbs oils or powders or extracts?  Swelling from irritation/hotness should only last a few hours, so maintaining the size indicates that it is not merely irritation.

I think deer velvet is supposed to be taken under the tongue because IGF is destroyed by digestion.  Or you might try it topically with butylene glycol and see if that works.  Or see above cautions if you mess with DMSO.


The only powder in the original massage was Fennel.  Fenugreek and WidYam extract from Greenbush.  L-Arginine liquid, everything else oil form.  I could come up with general amounts, but will take more time and also wouldn't really be correct overall anyways, since she massaged so much more than I had planned for..  I remember making out what would be a weeks worth and her doing it in in a few days.   Now I just topically dose each time to get the "correct" mixture.

She tried the DV under the tongue and wasn't a fan.  I only have it in powder form for now.  I could maybe take the current supply and make an extract, or just source new.

Awesome let us know how it goes with the cinnamon added.  IGF alone raises T so by itself it may not be great for NBE, but with estrogen (PM), and anti-T (SPE and white peony) that sounds like the right combo to let it take off.  The pumpkin seed oil and L-arginine won't be enough as a topical; it's akin to taking apple pills and silly unless it's by the scoopful.  Sprouted pumpkin seeds are a great source of both of those and a whole lot of other helpful nutrients (both for NBE and for general health).  She should snack on those instead.  Buy sprouted to go easier on the stomach, or soak raw seeds for at least 4 hours and rinse them off to get the same effect.  They're superb for male health too.  One of the healthiest things you or her can eat period.

I picked up a little deer velvet extract, butylene glycol and DMSO.  I'm going to try topically with butylene glycol.  Then if that fails I'll try DMSO for comparison.  It's a strong supplement sold more often to males so I should be able to notice if it's absorbed.  If deer velvet can be localized that could save money.  Plus I can use up the whole bottle for my own benefit and intensify my workouts.  And I have at least one other topical supplement in mind for myself to use up the carriers.
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#17
Thanks for the info on the pumpkin seeds and L-Arginine.  I don't do that anymore with the pumpkin seed anyways, but good to know.  Originally I didn't have SP extract so I was adding it to the massage oil by the 320mg soft gels that include pumpkin seed oil.  She still uses SP in variations of either the soft gels or extract, but it's not everyday.  The WP extract has been more religious and seems to be good at balancing her out.

I need to re-look Arginine.  For some reason I had originally been doing topically as not only for the benefit of it's qualities as a supplement, but of somewhat of a carrier and to open her up some to the other herbs.  She also does L-Arginine in capsule form at night at various times (last night for instance she had 2g before bed).  Like most of these things, she isn't doing every single day all the time, and really it's tough to be disciplined enough to consistently do a lot of the NBE activities anyways. At least as much as we would like when it comes to massage, anyways.  We are getting better though and for the most part stick to certain plans to a point no matter what, especially when it comes to something as strong as PM for instance.  The black pepper originally was used to open and stimulate.  We haven't used since, but only because we are out.  If we had some, we might use again, since she really thinks it made a difference.  Cinnamon was originally used in the same way.  I don't know if I realized it was helpful in the IGF sense, but I have already forgotten so much of what I thought I learned up until even trying much of this anyways, so who knows.

Hope you have good luck with the Deer Velvet.  What you have done in your write ups has been a good part of what I have learned here among with so many other great contributors as well.
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#18
Her boobs are growing nicely this month.  They seem to always be on the up and up enhancement wise even though the actual measurements don't always show what I am expecting (sometimes they aren't actually measuring bigger according to the tape when I expect them to be so).  Since the Summer she has grown from 40" bust to consistently over 41" the first month onward.  I don't measure that often, but just over a week ago I did and they were over 41.75".  This was mid day without any stimulation to aid any swelling to fudge the measurement at all.  Her under bust at 34" has stayed the same.  Now she is getting very close to her period and have to say they look very very very very nice!  She can't stop playing with them and showing them off to me. 

I don't know if I can attribute it to the extra influence of IGF, but I want to say it made a difference.  We were not consistent in massage or herbs all the way through, but we did stick with some massage including the cinnamon oil for a good week immediately following my last response in this thread and did notice a positive result.  That, and Deer Velvet ended up administered in a variety of ways, including capsules, extract under the tongue, and in the actual massage oil/mask.  One massage included DMSO and DV extract.  I somewhat try to create small spikes here and there and so I also used some PC at times and even had her take 200 grams of PM powder on a whim (which is something I have never done in the luteal phase).  She stayed balanced throughout to the point of feeling fine and the results are good. 

We plan to take a break completely from PC and PM this month.  PC has only been used very sparingly anyways, which is the way I like it from what I understand about it.

When it comes to some type of extra IGF influence in the future I'll report back on results if I think it made a difference or not.

She just showed them to me again.  "Gawd, they look good!", I say.

And, now she just started.... Right on time. Smile
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#19
One more thing I wanted to add is that she had a rise in androgens.  She had some acne and oily skin kind of like when she was in her teens and early twenties.  When she was young she used to naturally break out around her chin and mouth area before her period.  This time it was easily alleviated with SP and WP extract.  Her skin is currently soft and smooth.
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#20
Very nice, thanks for the update.  Though it's expensive you may want to try the IGF I linked too.  Most of the others are supposedly very weak.  Even for this one bodybuilders usually use the highest concentration just to get a little boost.  And since it can boost testosterone the anti-androgens are even more important with it.

My butylene glycol, DMSO, IGF and a couple other things arrived.  The couple other things are to mix with butylene glycol/DMSO and try on myself to test the carriers.  I still need to mix them up.  Holidays have been crazy.
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