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If I take a phytoestrogen, do I really need something to increase progesterone?
#1
I was thinking of taking something like aguaje soon (full of phytoestrogens) and I thought I had finally gotten my ideas straight but now I just realized......estrogen works together with progesterone. They go hand in hand and they should be relatively balanced.

Well, if I start taking something that will increase my estrogen levels, won't I need something to increase progesterone??
Many of you ladies have confirmed that progesterone is actually key to breast growth (as well as estrogen of course). 

Do you really need to take something to increase progesterone while increasing estrogen? What will happen if one only takes estrogen? Would one become estrogen dominant? Any ladies out there only taking a phytoestrogen??

I wanted to avoid taking many herbs but now I'm wondering what would be the safest option. I heard vitex could increase progesterone but apparently it's not so effective for increasing breast size. Any thoughts? Hannah and Pink Chiffon??
 Reply
#2
http://holistichormonalhealth.com/how-to...naturally/

This actually has all the things I was going to suggest including fresh herbs. 
Also support your liver so you can flush the excess out.
Reading this link above too was screaming out to me! I had pretty much all those symptons!

I was going to try vitex then further reading I might in fact restart DIM. Plus there's this progesterone cream which IS bio identical called "serenity" I'm going to get some and use ONLY a fraction if the recommended dose as it will build up over time and il only do it during luteal. This is until I can get my hormone test.

Will you cycle the aguaje? I men your going to do it anyway and to be fair the nutritional composition of aguJe is pretty good to be fair. I'd increase those natural things, the spices. Turmeric too. B vits from memory help support the hormones. 

I'd avoid Zeno estrogens where poss so if THEY are high in your system You'd sooner want to get them get. Till receipts from shops, foods wrapped in plastic etc etc. try cut all that down .

Since your doing it il look forward to your results. Keep me posted. 

Wouldn't it be so much easier if there were a simple answer to our estrogen question "can phytos crowd the xenoestrogens out and his to ensure proper metabolism of the estrogens we HAVE" .. life be a lot easier right. But yeh in finding that article for you it jumped out at me that hands down my progesterone is low!
 Reply
#3
(31-03-2017, 07:13 PM)bettie32 Wrote: I was thinking of taking something like aguaje soon (full of phytoestrogens) and I thought I had finally gotten my ideas straight but now I just realized......estrogen works together with progesterone. They go hand in hand and they should be relatively balanced.

Well, if I start taking something that will increase my estrogen levels, won't I need something to increase progesterone??
Many of you ladies have confirmed that progesterone is actually key to breast growth (as well as estrogen of course). 

Do you really need to take something to increase progesterone while increasing estrogen? What will happen if one only takes estrogen? Would one become estrogen dominant? Any ladies out there only taking a phytoestrogen??

I wanted to avoid taking many herbs but now I'm wondering what would be the safest option. I heard vitex could increase progesterone but apparently it's not so effective for increasing breast size. Any thoughts? Hannah and Pink Chiffon??


I dont really know how you feel now so advising you might not be right. But for myself I always was pretty balanced...I had a cycle that was 28 days long, just like a clockwork. No painful menstruations and no skin problems only at during my menstruation a little breakout on my shoulders. My figure was thin but in proportions. For me gaining weight was a good add to my NBE program.
So far that was me.
After taking fennel teas and playing around with some other phyto-estrogenic herbs I had no growth BUT i did had a shorter cycle and heavier bleedings. Breasts did absolutely NOTHING!

Therefore jumping into a right program with a healthy body like I had was important for me.....I am not saying that estrogen and progesteron will help you grow but I do advice to follow the rules of cycling. 
Take your phytoestrogens from cycle day 1 until your ovulation. then slowly build up your progesterone with progesterone cream(find a good one USP progesterone, which is available for your body immediatly) and use just a tiny dab. I use a fraction of the advised dose and its noticable enough for me!
I say wrists is the best place then rotate with other places I always do wrists couple of days then neck couple of days.

With aguaje Id say the same dont take too much it WILL throw you of. I do advise a aromatase herb or an antiandrogen herb because Estrogen and Progesteron can be converted to T....you never know when or if this will happen but once it happens your to late and your breasts will deflate back to level 1 lol......its al testing and timing and feeling.

I would advise to start up one round with phyto's first to build a plateau of estrogens then chances you react to the program I think increases. One month later add the pc but really if you are like me(probably low in estrogen) NOT too much!!
The pc is mainly to keep your receptors responding to the Estrogens.
If you take only E yoiur receptors will be full of it....its like a key thats in a lock....there cant be more keys in one lock..and the door will stay locked/youll be stalled and might only deflate.

Also estrogen i thought lowers prolactin...and prolacttin is important too(you can stimulate prolactin release with nipple stimulation and carbs(wheat) I found out recently) So therefore I do so much try to tell people keep your dose low....lower then 100mgs or whatever or just take a tiny bit spread out over the day....giving yourself too much routine is also not good...sometimes we need a LITTLE swift in our hormone levels to stimulate that growth...but just a little so its not harmful...

Oh and too much Progesterone will lengthen your luteal phase... Too much estrogen causes heavy and shorter cycles possibly without ovulation.

Hope this complicated story is a little bit more clear now..
 Reply
#4
(01-04-2017, 05:17 AM)EllaC Wrote: http://holistichormonalhealth.com/how-to...naturally/

This actually has all the things I was going to suggest including fresh herbs. 
Also support your liver so you can flush the excess out.
Reading this link above too was screaming out to me! I had pretty much all those symptons!

I was going to try vitex then further reading I might in fact restart DIM. Plus there's this progesterone cream which IS bio identical called "serenity" I'm going to get some and use ONLY a fraction if the recommended dose as it will build up over time and il only do it during luteal. This is until I can get my hormone test.

Will you cycle the aguaje? I men your going to do it anyway and to be fair the nutritional composition of aguJe is pretty good to be fair. I'd increase those natural things, the spices. Turmeric too. B vits from memory help support the hormones. 

I'd avoid Zeno estrogens where poss so if THEY are high in your system You'd sooner want to get them get. Till receipts from shops, foods wrapped in plastic etc etc. try cut all that down .

Since your doing it il look forward to your results. Keep me posted. 

Wouldn't it be so much easier if there were a simple answer to our estrogen question "can phytos crowd the xenoestrogens out and his to ensure proper metabolism of the estrogens we HAVE" .. life be a lot easier right. But yeh in finding that article for you it jumped out at me that hands down my progesterone is low!


Thank you, Ella <3
That is a great site! I saw some of those symptoms on other sites about estrogen dominance but that makes sense (more estrogen = less progesterone).

Yes, I thought of cycling but not sure how that works. Do you normally  stop (estrogen boosting) herbs when you get your period and resume as soon as period ends?? Oh, thank u for the tips. Am definitely going to get some B vitamins and try turmeric (it's a great antioxidant and it's anti-inflammatory). I like these natural options.

As for PC, am really paranoid about that....I've heard about frightening experiences. I also read that it take can take years for PC to leave the body. Hm. In your case, it really sounds like you need it. I'm not 100% sure if I need it now BUT if I do eventually raise my estrogen levels, might need it....will try vit B and turmeric first.

Yes, we really need to flush out the toxins out of our liver. I've stocked up on milk thistle/dandelion (and now that you reminded me, turmeric is great too for detoxing the liver!). 

Keep me updated too! I'll be checking your thread  Smile
 Reply
#5
(01-04-2017, 03:37 PM)hannah Wrote: I dont really know how you feel now so advising you might not be right. But for myself I always was pretty balanced...I had a cycle that was 28 days long, just like a clockwork. No painful menstruations and no skin problems only at during my menstruation a little breakout on my shoulders. My figure was thin but in proportions. For me gaining weight was a good add to my NBE program.
So far that was me.
After taking fennel teas and playing around with some other phyto-estrogenic herbs I had no growth BUT i did had a shorter cycle and heavier bleedings. Breasts did absolutely NOTHING!

Therefore jumping into a right program with a healthy body like I had was important for me.....I am not saying that estrogen and progesteron will help you grow but I do advice to follow the rules of cycling. 
Take your phytoestrogens from cycle day 1 until your ovulation. then slowly build up your progesterone with progesterone cream(find a good one USP progesterone, which is available for your body immediatly) and use just a tiny dab. I use a fraction of the advised dose and its noticable enough for me!
I say wrists is the best place then rotate with other places I always do wrists couple of days then neck couple of days.

With aguaje Id say the same dont take too much it WILL throw you of. I do advise a aromatase herb or an antiandrogen herb because Estrogen and Progesteron can be converted to T....you never know when or if this will happen but once it happens your to late and your breasts will deflate back to level 1 lol......its al testing and timing and feeling.

I would advise to start up one round with phyto's first to build a plateau of estrogens then chances you react to the program I think increases. One month later add the pc but really if you are like me(probably low in estrogen) NOT too much!!
The pc is mainly to keep your receptors responding to the Estrogens.
If you take only E yoiur receptors will be full of it....its like a key thats in a lock....there cant be more keys in one lock..and the door will stay locked/youll be stalled and might only deflate.

Also estrogen i thought lowers prolactin...and prolacttin is important too(you can stimulate prolactin release with nipple stimulation and carbs(wheat) I found out recently) So therefore I do so much try to tell people keep your dose low....lower then 100mgs or whatever or just take a tiny bit spread out over the day....giving yourself too much routine is also not good...sometimes we need a LITTLE swift in our hormone levels to stimulate that growth...but just a little so its not harmful...

Oh and too much Progesterone will lengthen your luteal phase... Too much estrogen causes heavy and shorter cycles possibly without ovulation.

Hope this complicated story is a little bit more clear now..


Thank you, Hannah. Yes, it's more complicated than I had hoped but it's clear now <3

Oh no, you'd think that by adding phytoestrogens, you'd grow a little in the breast area (not even the booty area??)! I'm also pretty balanced (estrogen and progesterone wise) but my testosterone has always tended to be on the high side (due to PCOS). Periods are also regular but I do have symptoms that indicate DHT levels are on the high side. The issue is, everything that I want to take to either lower testosterone/DHT has side effects that I cannot absolutely risk. This is why I've decided to turn to some phytoestrogens. I don't know if this is the right thing, but I feel there is nothing else left for me! I've eliminated fennel tea, spearmint tea, even pumpkin seeds because they actually made me sick. It's very frustrating.

I'll try to find a decent aromatase/anti-androgen (though the ones I wanted, white peony and reishi both thin the blood and/or lower blood pressure so I must avoid them).  Too bad saw palmetto also blocks estrogen (apparently...). 

Yes, when I take aguaje, I'll definitely take very little to see how it goes. As for PC, I've heard many ladies state that it made them deflate...yikes!! Have you grown from PC? 

By the way, I suppose it's better to lay off phytoestrogens during your period? Do you think a 5 day break would be enough to stay off phytoestrogens each month? I'm still not 100% about how cycling works. Thank you, again  Blush
 Reply
#6
(01-04-2017, 07:52 PM)bettie32 Wrote:
(01-04-2017, 05:17 AM)EllaC Wrote: http://holistichormonalhealth.com/how-to...naturally/

This actually has all the things I was going to suggest including fresh herbs. 
Also support your liver so you can flush the excess out.
Reading this link above too was screaming out to me! I had pretty much all those symptons!

I was going to try vitex then further reading I might in fact restart DIM. Plus there's this progesterone cream which IS bio identical called "serenity" I'm going to get some and use ONLY a fraction if the recommended dose as it will build up over time and il only do it during luteal. This is until I can get my hormone test.

Will you cycle the aguaje? I men your going to do it anyway and to be fair the nutritional composition of aguJe is pretty good to be fair. I'd increase those natural things, the spices. Turmeric too. B vits from memory help support the hormones. 

I'd avoid Zeno estrogens where poss so if THEY are high in your system You'd sooner want to get them get. Till receipts from shops, foods wrapped in plastic etc etc. try cut all that down .

Since your doing it il look forward to your results. Keep me posted. 

Wouldn't it be so much easier if there were a simple answer to our estrogen question "can phytos crowd the xenoestrogens out and his to ensure proper metabolism of the estrogens we HAVE" .. life be a lot easier right. But yeh in finding that article for you it jumped out at me that hands down my progesterone is low!


Thank you, Ella <3
That is a great site! I saw some of those symptoms on other sites about estrogen dominance but that makes sense (more estrogen = less progesterone).

Yes, I thought of cycling but not sure how that works. Do you normally  stop (estrogen boosting) herbs when you get your period and resume as soon as period ends?? Oh, thank u for the tips. Am definitely going to get some B vitamins and try turmeric (it's a great antioxidant and it's anti-inflammatory). I like these natural options.

As for PC, am really paranoid about that....I've heard about frightening experiences. I also read that it take can take years for PC to leave the body. Hm. In your case, it really sounds like you need it. I'm not 100% sure if I need it now BUT if I do eventually raise my estrogen levels, might need it....will try vit B and turmeric first.

Yes, we really need to flush out the toxins out of our liver. I've stocked up on milk thistle/dandelion (and now that you reminded me, turmeric is great too for detoxing the liver!). 

Keep me updated too! I'll be checking your thread  Smile

Yeh thats the prob with progesterone, it can take a long time to leave your system. Builds up in the tissues, thats why i was thinking of only using a mere "fraction" of the recomended dosage. And yeh like i said up to 50% of us carry the gene mutation where we might not break down estrogen the way we are supposed to  and the prevalence of breast cancer - cause of ALL the bloody artificial estrogen sources we are exposed to :Sad and the inability to break those estrogens down. So thats the flip side ya know. Even if these phytos are a good source will they out compete the rest - who knows. The best thing seriously before you start this route, save up. Do the saliva hormone test and if its high faulk out a little more and get the estrogen metabolism test. Apprently the best one is called the "dutch hormone test' - thats what im saving up for! (does it all in one hit) Then you put all this to bed and move forward with a clear picture of what your dealing with Big Grin And in addition to no more fear of what doing NBE might mean in the future for ya Smile  

In the mean time just check out Jennifer loves condensed page. So many good links to massage, noogle, subliminals etc - alternatively Hannahs got the answers to your question above re cycling. I never got tied up in cycling. From personal experience being highly senstivie just using pc cream around day 2-3 i got all jittery, sleep apnea etc, although i felt abit more relaxed. If your a high stress personality you're just extra senstivie to all these things like me - Sucks.
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#7
Hannah how do you know if you've ovulate or not?
My luteal phase is shorter now! By about a few days. I FEEL like ive ovulated (personal symptons) but my luteal is def shorter. My boobs start to hurt within a week of my period finishing where as it used to be two wees after. 
Mind you unbalanced gut bacteria causes hormone inbalance.

Will beattie respond to any sort of cycling or supplementation if her ciruculation isnt great? I reckon my biggest thing has been poor circulation - nutrients / herbs not reaching where they needed to be. Also why never responded to massage or noogling. Maybe her/me need to focus on ciruclation more. Deep breathing, lymphatics etc. Or thyroid! Low thyroid = low everything else... Including digestion for me = enter IBS!
 Reply
#8
(01-04-2017, 08:22 PM)EllaC Wrote: Yeh thats the prob with progesterone, it can take a long time to leave your system. Builds up in the tissues, thats why i was thinking of only using a mere "fraction" of the recomended dosage. And yeh like i said up to 50% of us carry the gene mutation where we might not break down estrogen the way we are supposed to  and the prevalence of breast cancer - cause of ALL the bloody artificial estrogen sources we are exposed to :Sad and the inability to break those estrogens down. So thats the flip side ya know. Even if these phytos are a good source will they out compete the rest - who knows. The best thing seriously before you start this route, save up. Do the saliva hormone test and if its high faulk out a little more and get the estrogen metabolism test. Apprently the best one is called the "dutch hormone test' - thats what im saving up for! (does it all in one hit) Then you put all this to bed and move forward with a clear picture of what your dealing with Big Grin And in addition to no more fear of what doing NBE might mean in the future for ya Smile  

In the mean time just check out Jennifer loves condensed page. So many good links to massage, noogle, subliminals etc - alternatively Hannahs got the answers to your question above re cycling. I never got tied up in cycling. From personal experience being highly senstivie just using pc cream around day 2-3 i got all jittery, sleep apnea etc, although i felt abit more relaxed. If your a high stress personality you're just extra senstivie to all these things like me - Sucks.


Yes, if you use PC again, make sure you use a tiiiny amount. I remember reading about your past experience with it (and I really think I'd react the same way!). Maybe "serenity" is a more "natural" version (it that's even possible)?

You're right, the best thing would be to get a test done. Thing is I've done so many in the past and they all indicate the same thing. My estrogen and progesterone seem to be fairly normal/stable (it's just the testosterone that was slightly higher). So what does that mean, I shouldn't/can't take anything for NBE?? Yet, there are women (on this forum too) who are taking phytoestrogens even though their levels are normal......it's not just women who have hormonal imbalances who take herbs for NBE, am I right? Ugh, I wish there was one perfect formula!

Let's see what Hannah says about circulation. I do also think it plays a very important role. We should definitely walk more Ella, even stretching could help. Thank you again <3
 Reply
#9
Was it saliva hormone test Beattie? If your normal I wouldn't want to tip he balance ya know. But who's to say it's your testosterone is causing small breast. Personal the fainting spells the sensitivity to herbs I'd be treading carefully.

You know me I never wana suggest anyone take any herbs. So just mentioning for you to investigate further with a professional but they use saw palmetto to treat PCos plus many girls grew breasts on it. I wonder if that's cause it stops testosterone being dominant. 

But tonanswer my own question low circulation isn't great for what we are tryiNg to achieve. But it's what's underlying the circulation. For me I suspect ect thyroid. Time to buck up my ideas and get the thyroid tests. It's another thing that runs in the family .
 Reply
#10
Ps after you reminding me of dim in your thread I ordered some more Maca as hands down it DID bring my cycle back to balance which has to be healthier than early and spotting beforehand. 
I wouldn't be worried about it reducing estrogen. My ND who has a PHd and travels around our country lecturing is one clued up lady. And in agrreeance b cause I haven't had the estrogen metabolism test yet she was like "take the DIM!" . She wasn't too happy with the Maca as we've discussed but had no issues with me trialling for three months . However I'm confident I don't have high testosterone so Maca might not be for you. 

Supplementing our diets with DIM can shift the production of estrogen metabolites away from dangerous 16-hydroxy in favor of beneficial 2-hydroxy metabolites.  Taking DIM in an absorbable formulation encourages active and healthy estrogen metabolism.  DIM supports estrogen balance by increasing beneficial 2-hydroxy estrogens and reducing the unwanted 16-hydroxy variety.  This improves estrogen metabolism and helps resolve all three forms of estrogen dominance.

I think you had a dim thread didn't ya. I'm tired. Posted in wrong place. 
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