[EllaC]

Hi ladies, 

I'm not a big fan of proprietary blends, meaning you don't know how much of one herbs is over the other. We know certain herbs stimulate either estrogen receptor alpha or beta.....(alpha is the pro-breast growth receptor while beta is anti-cancer). 

drug drug interactions tells us one drug has a stronger affinity over the other drug introduced at the same time. So, we have multiple phytoestrogens competing for the receptors, and if you don't know what phytoestrogens competes with others you'll have know idea what works or not. I've seen some proprietary blends that make no sense being combined with each other at all.....and yet they are.

As NBE consumers you'll know (over time) what herbs cause heaving bleeding, pain, bloating, depression or worse....(aka life threatening events). You'd be better to start off with one or two herbs and progress from there....if all goes well. Women metabolize drugs faster (and with less....45% less) over men.....but yet people continue to think taking mass quantities must be done.....madness. 

Personally, I learned the hard way what I can and can't do (in regards to herbals), so be careful out there, there's plenty of BN members that have injured themselves......permanently (archived for those interested).

Hi. Thanks for coming in! 

Can you advise is fenugreek and wild yam alpha or beta? 
Actually most concerned over ant possible cancer stimulating properties of either FG and/or WG.

http://www.greenbush.net/enblenex.html

Plus here's a link to the product dosage etc. I refer to the extract as that has the punch.  
Do these herbs work synergisticly? 
What's your take on the Programe.  

Really appreciate your time .

Certainly, anytime.  

I like GB's information (it's well put together). If you want to balance hormones do so first, (hence the WY). FG will increase estradiol...(see bottom two threads), if that's what you want to do. Don't take FG if your estrogen dominant, SP has its limitations with breast growth (my opinion)....so why include it with FG?....or WY. The ratio (1:1) I like and without the alcohol too. Reishi extract is my choice as an anti-androgen..it's strong enough to have in an hrt program too (my last blood test w/reishi...in place of spiro saw my T only slightly raised to (9 ng/dL, total testosterone).  


I'd keep FG separate allowing for its synthesis...30 minutes perceeding the AA dose though.

 FAQ-Is Fenugreek a Phytoestrogen?
http://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=19654

Fenugreek increases estradiol 
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=26172

FG overall has been explored as anti-cancer...though nothing is ever a guarantee when proliferating estrogen receptor alpha.

Diosgenin
http://www.breastnexus.com/attachment.php?aid=8344

Your awesome. 

Downloaded your E metabolism pdf for later. 


Lotus do you   see any benefit and if so WHEN to adding a little progesterone to us while taking greenbush? I think cycling it might negate any effect since they swear these herbs balance your hormones.  Maybe like vitex you don't stop and start you gotta take it consecutively for it to work. 
If you said "yes" when exactly is a good time in your cycle to boost progesterone...?

I hear you re estrogen dominance. 

At the very least by NOW I should have aching swollen boobs and for the first time in months I don't... what the implications are between starting GB and what this means is a mystery. My guess aching swollen boobs ain't good... so has GB influenced this for the better in any way.

[---]

Certainly, anytime.  

I like GB's information (it's well put together). If you want to balance hormones do so first, (hence the WY). FG will increase estradiol...(see bottom two threads), if that's what you want to do. Don't take FG if your estrogen dominant, SP has its limitations with breast growth (my opinion)....so why include it with FG?....or WY. The ratio (1:1) I like and without the alcohol too. Reishi extract is my choice as an anti-androgen..it's strong enough to have in an hrt program too (my last blood test w/reishi...in place of spiro saw my T only slightly raised to (9 ng/dL, total testosterone).  


I'd keep FG separate allowing for its synthesis...30 minutes perceeding the AA dose though.

 FAQ-Is Fenugreek a Phytoestrogen?
http://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=19654

Fenugreek increases estradiol 
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=26172

FG overall has been explored as anti-cancer...though nothing is ever a guarantee when proliferating estrogen receptor alpha.

Diosgenin
http://www.breastnexus.com/attachment.php?aid=8344

Hi Lotus! Thanks so much for chiming in on this! I agree that it's smart to be weary of proprietary blends, and going forward as I learn more about herbs I might end up formulating my own personal program with different separate blends. For me, I just didn't know where to start with herbs (there are so many!!) and having a preblended pure formula was attractive, also the success that women were having with Greenbush pulled me aboard that train, lol. I do plan on document my progress, and if I have any bad signs, I'm definitely going to stop. But I think like you said, it's smarter to research and experiment on one herb at a time, and then learn how your body responds (and plus, it tends to be cheaper that way too). Thank you so much for your help! You are so knowledgeable!! 


I have a question, when you said keep FG separate, and then take AA dose, what is AA dose? And also, if I was to take separate herbs, would you recommend always taking FG separate; is it ever okay to blend it with anything else? Is FG something you would recommend first starting off on, or is there an other herb that is better? 

Sorry for the barrage of questions, I'm just really trying to learn and soak up as much as I can when it comes to herbs!! 


Thanks so much!

Xoxo

[Lotus]

Sorry Ella and Zara, (and others..and this may go off of your intended questions, but this is based on research, lol my own).   

Kudo's Zara for starting this thread (and the ladies showing interest) .....cycling questions and threads has popped up at BN many times before, though the question still remains unresolved, hopefully this thread will shine some much needed light on it, and what should go hand and hand with ladies NBE...cycling.

A few things stick out in my mind on the topic of cycling....first being (and of overall importance) is anytime you reach a tolerance using herbals one should cycle off said herbals. So, how does one determine when that time is?.....that will depend on individual metabolisms quite honestly, however, when the effects of supplements lose there intended desired effect....it could be (est) 3 to 6 weeks or longer. If you don't see any results during the first 30 days however?, I'd say re-evaluate the NBE plan.  

Basal body temp (BBT) steadily raises after ovulation (day 15 and after)...peaking mid luteal, this is when you'd introduce BO for those ladies who take it. This also when to add progesterone while temperatures are increased... which progesterone should provide already during luteal and increased BBT, but that's not always the case. See, it's easier to inhibit estradiol than DHT in our blood via SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin)....that's the stuff that transports hormones (in our blood). When body temp increases SHBG levels go down....meaning estradiol goes down with it.....and when do you think estradiol goes down?.......you got it (in luteal).....less free energy binding means less DHT. What's odd is how SHBG will essentially show higher in blood tests when fasting the night before (fast of at least 8 hours), though increased blood sugars and exercise increases body temp too....as well we know. 


So in essence, why throw more herbals at producing estradiol in luteal when we know it is almost impossible to maintain, though it may vary well be that estradiol has steady state in luteal to use as ones advantage. Plus, T will be higher when E is lower......and attaching a 5 alpha inhibitor promotes aromatase. DHT should be in its weakest point I'm my estimation, via lack of free energy binding during luteal. However....the gains (swelling) in luteal are also water gains too.....maintaining growth from one cycle to another is no easy task. 

Here's where this gets interesting though....FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) is a all natural aromatase......and when to take full advantage of it is in luteal.....this is where sustained growth can be coupled with swelling (in my opinion).....i could talk about this later perhaps?.

There is a chart/graph (which I can't find atm)   detailing an average BBT and hormone levels during 
a cycle...I'll try to find it...(I think it was lost in the move).

[---]

Sorry Ella and Zara, (and others..and this may go off of your intended questions, but this is based on research, lol my own).   

Kudo's Zara for starting this thread (and the ladies showing interest) .....cycling questions and threads has popped up at BN many times before, though the question still remains unresolved, hopefully this thread will shine some much needed light on it, and what should go hand and hand with ladies NBE...cycling.

A few things stick out in my mind on the topic of cycling....first being (and of overall importance) is anytime you reach a tolerance using herbals one should cycle off said herbals. So, how does one determine when that time is?.....that will depend on individual metabolisms quite honestly, however, when the effects of supplements lose there intended desired effect....it could be (est) 3 to 6 weeks or longer. If you don't see any results during the first 30 days however?, I'd say re-evaluate the NBE plan.  

Basal body temp (BBT) steadily raises after ovulation (day 15 and after)...peaking mid luteal, this is when you'd introduce BO for those ladies who take it. This also when to add progesterone while temperatures are increased... which progesterone should provide already during luteal and increased BBT, but that's not always the case. See, it's easier to inhibit estradiol than DHT in our blood via SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin)....that's the stuff that transports hormones (in our blood). When body temp increases SHBG levels go down....meaning estradiol goes down with it.....and when do you think estradiol goes down?.......you got it (in luteal).....less free energy binding means less DHT. What's odd is how SHBG will essentially show higher in blood tests when fasting the night before (fast of at least 8 hours), though increased blood sugars and exercise increases body temp too....as well we know. 

So in essence, why throw more herbals at producing estradiol in luteal when we know it is almost impossible to maintain, though it may vary well be that estradiol has steady state in luteal to use as ones advantage. Plus, T will be higher when E is lower......and attaching a 5 alpha inhibitor promotes aromatase. DHT should be in its weakest point I'm my estimation, via lack of free energy binding during luteal. However....the gains (swelling) in luteal are also water gains too.....maintaining growth from one cycle to another is no easy task. 

Here's where this gets interesting though....FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) is a all natural aromatase......and when to take full advantage of it is in luteal.....this is where sustained growth can be coupled with swelling (in my opinion).....i could talk about this later perhaps?.

There is a chart/graph (which I can't find atm)   detailing an average BBT and hormone levels during 
a cycle...I'll try to find it...(I think it was lost in the move).

Thank you, Lotus, for posting this info! This is all so important to know when it comes to herbs and cycling, and it does help to clear up some things for me! I would love it if you could talk more on this topic, and about FSH and luteal phases, because I think it's valuable and crucial for those of us on herbal/supplement plans to know, and like I said before, I need to soak up all the info I can!! One thing I don't want to do is follow a complicated plan and not understand or not know why the hell I'm doing it (especially when I feel like some of those complicated plans have irrelevant steps). 

Xoxo

[Lotus]

Absolutely Zara, I can do that...(time permitting, hopefully tonight). 

In the meantime I wanted to share this study I came across last year: it lines up with what I was saying about estradiol being higher in luteal than we my think:

Greetings loved ones,


In this small study, 12 women with high progesterone levels exhibited higher breast tissue levels of estradiol compared with fat tissue in luteal phase, another 12 women with low levels of progesterone had low breast tissue estradiol too. It reinforces that progesterone has a big impact on breast tissue, especially in the luteal phase. 

This also backs up that taking PM all cycle is a mistake.........my opinion, FWIW. And a corresponding increase in what we know as swelling, again.....imo.


Increased extracellular local levels of estradiol in normal breast in vivo during the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle 
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/co...3.full.pdf


Estrogen exposure is a major risk factor for breast cancer. Tissue estrogen originates from the ovaries but a significant portion is also produced by enzyme activity locally in the breast itself. How these enzymes are regulated is not fully understood. The extracellular space, where the metabolic exchange and cell interactions take place, reflects the environment that surrounds the epithelium but there has been no previous study of hormone concentrations in this compartment. In the present study microdialysis was used to measure extracellular estrogen concentrations in breast tissue and abdominal subcutaneous fat in 12 healthy women in vivo. It was found that women with high plasma progesterone levels had significant increased levels of estradiol in breast tissue compared with fat tissue (breast tissue 168   6 pM; subcutaneous fat, 154   5 pM; P < 0·05), whereas women with low plasma progesterone exhibited no difference. Moreover, there was a significant correlation between local breast tissue estradiol and plasma progesterone levels (r = 0·709, P < 0·01). There was no difference in estrone sulphate in breast and fat tissue regardless of progesterone levels. Estrone was not detectable. The results in this study suggest that progesterone may be one regulator in the local conversion of estrogen precursors into potent estradiol in normal breast tissue. Journal of Endocrinology (2005) 187, 103–108

[wagon train]

Lotus thank you so much for chiming in, you explain things in a way my pea size brain can understand! haha!

 I've been digging through all of your threads trying to gather all the information I can. I'm super motivated to try to figure out a refined cycling plan for women so I hoping this thread continues!! I'd love to see that chart as well

[Lotus]

Lotus thank you so much for chiming in, you explain things in a way my pea size brain can understand! haha!

 I've been digging through all of your threads trying to gather all the information I can. I'm super motivated to try to figure out a refined cycling plan for women so I hoping this thread continues!! I'd love to see that chart as well

Awesome,....though you might be cussing at me shortly for the complexity of things to come....lol (evil laugh) kidding. 

Updated 

I'll bet most can remember the " Flux Capacitor " from the movie " Back to the Future " right?. (Youngin's, go find it on YouTube.)

Anyways, the hypothalamus is similar to the Flux Capacitor in the way it can put the Gonads back in time...........aka- puberty.  Only, flash forward to 2015 in the movie and the 1.21 jigowatts needed to generate time travel in 1985 is replaced by Mr. Fusion in 2015, (powered by garbage..what a kicker lol).  

So our fuel (or should we say " Ms. Fusion ") needed to generate the gonads back to puberty will stem from the hypothalamus, albiet negative feedback loops via LH & FSH (lutenizing hormone & follicle stimulating hormone).....simple right?. It will make sense later. 

Here's the FSH relationship to aromatase: 

Binding distribution of principle endogenous steroid hormones in normal women during the menstrual cycle. ______________________________________________________
Of clinical importance is free testosterone, which is often elevated in hyperandrogenic women with clinical manifestations of hirsutism. The free testosterone is regulated by the concentration of SHBG in blood. The higher the SHBG level, the lower the free testosterone level, and vice versa. A number of factors can affect SHBG concentrations in blood. They include obesity, menopause, insulin, and androgens, each of which decreases SHBG levels. In contrast, SHBG levels are increased by estrogens, thyroid hormone, liver cirrhosis, and prolonged stress.

After menopause aromatase in adipose becomes the chief producer of estrogen, E1 estrone to be exact. But, as we know in adipose tissue estrone is weak, and it's produced from androstenedione of adrenal origin in relatively large quantities. 

Although aromatase level per adipose tissue fibroblast may be small, the sum of estrogen arising from billions of adipose tissue fibroblasts in the entire body makes a physiologic impact. The principal product of the ovary is the potent estrogen estradiol. In adipose tissue, estrogenically weak estrone is produced from androstenedione of adrenal origin in relatively large quantities. However, at least half of this peripherally produced estrone is eventually converted to estradiol in extraovarian tissues.

Molecular Bases and Phenotypic Determinants of Aromatase
http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/ij...584807.pdf


Physiological regulation of aromatase expression. FSH induces aromatase expression via a cAMP-dependent pathway in ovarian granulosa cells via promoter II. SF-1 mediates this action of FSH. On the other hand, a combination of a glucocorticoid and a member of the class I cytokine family induces aromatase expression in skin and adipose tissue fibroblasts via promoter I.4 located 73 kb upstream of the coding region. Binding of STAT-3 and glucocorticoid receptor (GR) upstream of promoter I.4 mediates regulation of aromatase expression in these fibroblasts.

Regulation of Aromatase Expression in Estrogen-Responsive Breast and Uterine Disease: From Bench to Treatment
http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/conten...9.full.pdf

from the study above, promoter I.4 (skin and adipose) is the one we should focus on, (skin fibroblasts) to promote aromatase. 

[Lotus]

Here's a printable BBT (basal body temp) to chart on your own....(not the chart I was talking about though). Power is in numbers right?...well, if a group of ladies here at BN pooled together and tracked BBT for at least 1 cycle we'd be able to identify trouble spots for creating growth phases. This can be expanded to say (5-10) ladies coordinating testing blood E2 one herb at a time (possible on line testing?).....it's about the closest science anybody can do for each other outside the lab setting. 

http://assets.babycenter.com/ims/Content..._chart.pdf


Sleep and 24 hour body temperatures: a comparison in young men, naturally cycling women and women taking hormonal contraceptives.
Baker FC1, Waner JI, Vieira EF, Taylor SR, Driver HS, Mitchell D.
Author information


Abstract
Body temperature has a circadian rhythm, and in women with ovulatory cycles, also a menstrual rhythm. Body temperature and sleep are believed to be closely coupled, but the influence on their relationship of gender, menstrual cycle phase and female reproductive hormones is unresolved. We investigated sleep and 24 h rectal temperatures in eight women with normal menstrual cycles in their mid-follicular and mid-luteal phases, and in eight young women taking a steady dose of oral progestin and ethinyl oestradiol (hormonal contraceptive), and compared their sleep and body temperatures with that of eight young men, sleeping in identical conditions. All subjects maintained their habitual daytime schedules. Rectal temperatures were elevated throughout 24 h in the luteal phase compared with the follicular phase in the naturally cycling women, consistent with a raised thermoregulatory set-point. Rectal temperatures in the women taking hormonal contraceptives were similar to those of the naturally cycling women in the luteal phase. Gender influenced body temperature: the naturally cycling women and the women taking hormonal contraceptives attained their nocturnal minimum body temperatures earlier than the men, and the naturally cycling women had blunted nocturnal body temperature drops compared with the men. Sleep architecture was essentially unaffected by either menstrual cycle phase or gender. The women taking hormonal contraceptives had less slow wave sleep (SWS), however, than the naturally cycling women. Gender, menstrual cycle phase and hormonal contraceptives significantly influenced body temperature, but had only minor consequences for sleep, in the young men and women in our study.

In conclusion, we have shown that naturally cycling women and women taking hormonal contraceptives have different 24 h body temperature curves from young men maintaining their habitual schedules. Also, sleep macrostructure is influenced by hormonal contraceptives compared with the normal menstrual cycle, and by menstrual cycle phase, to a limited extent.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...0-0565.pdf

[Lotus]

I have to say its impressive to see BN members taking an interest in NBE science, no one person can take on all the facts of NBE related science and come out a sane person in (or at) the end. This is a group effort obviously...honestly I wish I could devote more time to the science (personally speaking). 

I'm tickled if I can help solve cycling any way I can with you all. If no objections I'll post relevant cycling stuff.....and there is however a ton more stuff lol. 

[---]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!! Lotus you are really helping to make things clear to me and strip away some of this mystery when it comes to cycling!! Yes yes, please, if you have time please continue to post more about this topic! I am gobbling it all up!! I really like that study that you posted on progesterone in luteal phase, because I've been trying to figure out what I should take during that phase.

Initially, I just wanted to do a simplified cycling plan that mimics BCP to prevent disruptions with my menstrual cycle, so: 3 weeks on GB, 1 week off of herbs. But my new plan going forward is to take my GB on my follicular phase, on my day of ovulation take milk thistle (to clean my liver of excess hormones) and drink Chanca Piedra tea or another Detox tea (for the same reasons), and then for my luteal phase I plan on taking Aguaje, Hops, Fennel seed, Vitex, Sea buckthorn oil, Turmeric tea with ashwagandha and maca, White peony, and some Menstrual teas that I take for cramps, as well as drink green juice. I'm also thinking about taking some Shatavari and DIM during this time, and I'll be taking MSM and collagen and matcha green tea throughout both phases but not in high amounts nor daily. Not quite certain if this is a good plan or not (still feels incomplete), and I haven't quite figured out the amounts, so I'm desperate for any advice, tips, and suggestions!! 

Question: I read on RocketMelon's thread that on the day of ovulation you should take nothing for that sole day, I'm not sure why that is and if it matters but that's the reason I chose not to take anything but milk thistle. Do you have any ideas on that? RocketMelon also took a specific herb to raise her T levels slightly, which at first I thought was odd, but after research I realized that blocking T levels completely in women isn't a good idea (although lowering high T is) so that's why I like the ashwagandha.



<3 <3