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Fatty suggestions please for a plant/egg eater

#51

(09-07-2017, 01:26 AM)Lotus Wrote:  
(08-07-2017, 08:43 PM)NaturalLady31 Wrote:  Good one, Bettie! I too have always read that we need much more omega 3's.    I'm not keen on the idea of ramping up anything that could promote inflammation (who would want to??)

This is true.....there is no earthly benefit to systemic inflammation...especially when most major illness comes from the inflammation in cells (in other words, proliferation). The 1:1 ratio is ideally synergistic for all things considered (e.g. mRNA, DNA synthesis....and the mitochondrial matrix).

good point Bettie.

Thank you Lotus, NaturalLady and Surferjoe.

Exactly Lotus, 1:1 ratio is healthier and safer. It makes more sense. Not sure who on earth came up with the 4:1 ratio and why he/she thinks inflammation is good...

Now, I still want to continue taking EPO (omega 6), low dose, because it's good for PMS, PCOS and maybe even NBE (being a pro-aromatase) so I thought, "Ok, I'll just take more omega 3 in the form of krill oil/fish oil" (as you mentioned NaturalLady). But this raises another issue/mystery. Is fish oil good or bad for NBE?? What do you think, Lotus? Some sources (and members on here too) state that fish oil raises testosterone (yikes). There are quite a few threads and debates about this. Here's one: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7774 

I actually have a feeling fish oil could raise testosterone, but I'm not sure. I'm not willing to experiment lol If this is true, which component/substance in fish oil raises T? Is it the DHA? I hope it's not the omega 6, which we need (not only for NBE but for overall health!). Is there a solution (omega 6 source that doesn't inhibit NBE, if this is true)?
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#52

(09-07-2017, 04:24 PM)bettie32 Wrote:  
(09-07-2017, 01:26 AM)Lotus Wrote:  
(08-07-2017, 08:43 PM)NaturalLady31 Wrote:  Good one, Bettie! I too have always read that we need much more omega 3's.    I'm not keen on the idea of ramping up anything that could promote inflammation (who would want to??)

This is true.....there is no earthly benefit to systemic inflammation...especially when most major illness comes from the inflammation in cells (in other words, proliferation). The 1:1 ratio is ideally synergistic for all things considered (e.g. mRNA, DNA synthesis....and the mitochondrial matrix).

good point Bettie.

Thank you Lotus, NaturalLady and Surferjoe.

Exactly Lotus, 1:1 ratio is healthier and safer. It makes more sense. Not sure who on earth came up with the 4:1 ratio and why he/she thinks inflammation is good...

Now, I still want to continue taking EPO (omega 6), low dose, because it's good for PMS, PCOS and maybe even NBE (being a pro-aromatase) so I thought, "Ok, I'll just take more omega 3 in the form of krill oil/fish oil" (as you mentioned NaturalLady). But this raises another issue/mystery. Is fish oil good or bad for NBE?? What do you think, Lotus? Some sources (and members on here too) state that fish oil raises testosterone (yikes). There are quite a few threads and debates about this. Here's one: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7774 

I actually have a feeling fish oil could raise testosterone, but I'm not sure. I'm not willing to experiment lol If this is true, which component/substance in fish oil raises T? Is it the DHA? I hope it's not the omega 6, which we need (not only for NBE but for overall health!). Is there a solution (omega 6 source that doesn't inhibit NBE, if this is true)?

From what I read there are studies saying a 4:1 to 1:1 ratio is ideal for health.  1:1 is fine, but are you really going to consume ~4,000-12,000 mg omega 3s to get it?  Go on a nearly 0% fat diet outside of seafood and so on so you can get omega 6 to 1,500 mg so you can match 1,500 mg omega 3s?  Most plant oils are 50% omega 6, so 3g fat is your limit for the day.

Whether fish oil is good or bad for NBE, the EPA & DHA are essential for good health.  So it's either fish oil, seafood (same thing plus more really), or spending a fortune on algae.  I have read that fish oil raises testosterone.  I doubt it's by a lot.  If anything I'd use it no matter what and find other ways to lower testosterone.  Btw while oral fish oil sometimes seems to inhibit NBE, massaging with it has been used to help with NBE.  I also think when ingesting it long term testosterone won't continue to increase any more while over about 2 months or so EFA storage will continue to rise until it fills up.  So after a few months orally it might help NBE too as the EFAs help.  Plus if you can keep T down it might help from the start.

I tried to find a study on it and found that fish oil lowers testosterone, at least in women with PCOS: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941370/
I saw some info that it raises testosterone in men through better testicle health, but that's different.
So who knows if it even raises testosterone in women, or if it lowers it.  Maybe someone can find another study done on women.

So most likely fish oil is good for NBE.  Temporarily it might hurt slightly.  But even if it does hurt permanently I'd work around it and keep using it because your body & health needs the EFAs.
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#53

Just wanted to chime in and say that while some omega-6 fatty acids are shown to have inflammatory properties, that does not mean that ALL Omega 6s are inflammatory. 

There are several different types of omega-6 fatty acids, and not all promote inflammation. Most omega-6 fatty acids in the diet come from vegetable oils, such as linoleic acid (LA), not to be confused with alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), which is an omega-3 fatty acid. Linoleic acid is converted to gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) in the body. It can then break down further to arachidonic acid (AA). GLA is found in several plant-based oils, including evening primrose oil (EPO), borage oil, and black currant seed oil.

GLA may actually reduce inflammation. Much of the GLA taken as a supplement is converted to a substance called DGLA that fights inflammation. Having enough of certain nutrients in the body (including magnesium, zinc, and vitamins C, B3, and B6) helps promote the conversion of GLA to DGLA.

Remember Omega-6 fatty acids are essential fatty acids. They are necessary for human health, but the body cannot make them. You have to get them through food. Along with omega-3 fatty acids, omega-6 fatty acids play a crucial role in brain function, and normal growth and development. As a type of polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA), omega-6s help stimulate skin and hair growth, maintain bone health, regulate metabolism, and maintain the reproductive system.

http://www.umm.edu/health/medical/altmed...atty-acids


Xoxo,

Zara
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#54

(09-07-2017, 04:24 PM)bettie32 Wrote:  
(09-07-2017, 01:26 AM)Lotus Wrote:  
(08-07-2017, 08:43 PM)NaturalLady31 Wrote:  Good one, Bettie! I too have always read that we need much more omega 3's.    I'm not keen on the idea of ramping up anything that could promote inflammation (who would want to??)

This is true.....there is no earthly benefit to systemic inflammation...especially when most major illness comes from the inflammation in cells (in other words, proliferation). The 1:1 ratio is ideally synergistic for all things considered (e.g. mRNA, DNA synthesis....and the mitochondrial matrix).

good point Bettie.

Thank you Lotus, NaturalLady and Surferjoe.

Exactly Lotus, 1:1 ratio is healthier and safer. It makes more sense. Not sure who on earth came up with the 4:1 ratio and why he/she thinks inflammation is good...

Now, I still want to continue taking EPO (omega 6), low dose, because it's good for PMS, PCOS and maybe even NBE (being a pro-aromatase) so I thought, "Ok, I'll just take more omega 3 in the form of krill oil/fish oil" (as you mentioned NaturalLady). But this raises another issue/mystery. Is fish oil good or bad for NBE?? What do you think, Lotus? Some sources (and members on here too) state that fish oil raises testosterone (yikes). There are quite a few threads and debates about this. Here's one: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7774 

I actually have a feeling fish oil could raise testosterone, but I'm not sure. I'm not willing to experiment lol If this is true, which component/substance in fish oil raises T? Is it the DHA? I hope it's not the omega 6, which we need (not only for NBE but for overall health!). Is there a solution (omega 6 source that doesn't inhibit NBE, if this is true)?

I believe n-3 PUFAs can displace n-6 PUFAs, in other words improving the omega 3 index not only improves insulin resistance but lowers (or prevents) the symptoms of PCOS....which PCOS is driven by impaired insulin production. I also found the higher ratio of n-6 PUFAs over omega 3's can contribute to higher pool androgen levels. 

Hormonal and metabolic effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids in young women with polycystic ovary syndrome: results from a cross-sectional analysis and a randomized, placebo-controlled, crossover trial1–4 
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/93/3/652.full.pdf

Is fish oil ok for NBE?.....possibly, personally I prefer krill oil over fish oil.....krill is said to be 48 times stronger than fish oil. 

Enhanced increase of omega-3 index in healthy individuals with response to 4-week n-3 fatty acid supplementation from krill oil versus fish oil
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...12-178.pdf

Btw, myo-inositol improves PCOS too, and inositol is pro-aromatase.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27898267
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...2/abstract

Another benefit for improving the omega 3 index (for NBE) it's this....higher androgen index produces increased luteinizing hormone (LH) secretion, which produces androstenedione, and A4 (Δdioneindirectly produces E2 (estradiol) by way of aromatase. (another example please see DHEA study):

DHEA metabolites activate estrogen receptors alpha and beta
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3529809/

Speaking of Aromatase: I've listed the info a couple of times, but retinoids (vitamin A) are pro-aromatase too. 

Retinoic acids promote the action of aromatase and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 on the biosynthesis of 17beta-estradiol in placental cells.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1178...t=Abstract
Reply
#55

Thank you Lotus, Zara and Surferjoe.

Yeah Lotus, I'm more inclined towards krill oil too (apparently it also contains astaxanthin which we like Wink ). And I'm thrilled to hear that inositol is a pro-aromatase because I take it every day :-) I didn't know that vitamin A is also pro-aromatase.....thank you for letting us know!

Zara,  good to know EPO is ok coz I really want to continue taking it! I know you're taking it too (same low dose). :-)

Surferjoe, I also read about that study on women with PCOS which surprised me..
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#56

Krill oil is a little better absorbed.  Only thing with it is that it's really expensive.  It seems hard to get 1,500-3,000 mg omega 3 that way unless you lay down $100+ a month.  Maybe a little less because of the better absorption but that's still a lot.  Maybe you could take a little less than that range but then your omega 6 better be really low just to hit a 4:1 ratio.  But not nothing, you still need omega 6.  Even if krill oil is way better at XYZ, you are made of these fatty acids.   Omega 3s are materials not tools.  I can't see your body making as much out of way less material.  Or I suppose taking both forms could be ok, but that seems a little over-complicated to me.
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#57

(10-07-2017, 04:15 AM)Lotus Wrote:  
(09-07-2017, 04:24 PM)bettie32 Wrote:  
(09-07-2017, 01:26 AM)Lotus Wrote:  
(08-07-2017, 08:43 PM)NaturalLady31 Wrote:  Good one, Bettie! I too have always read that we need much more omega 3's.    I'm not keen on the idea of ramping up anything that could promote inflammation (who would want to??)

This is true.....there is no earthly benefit to systemic inflammation...especially when most major illness comes from the inflammation in cells (in other words, proliferation). The 1:1 ratio is ideally synergistic for all things considered (e.g. mRNA, DNA synthesis....and the mitochondrial matrix).

good point Bettie.

Thank you Lotus, NaturalLady and Surferjoe.

Exactly Lotus, 1:1 ratio is healthier and safer. It makes more sense. Not sure who on earth came up with the 4:1 ratio and why he/she thinks inflammation is good...

Now, I still want to continue taking EPO (omega 6), low dose, because it's good for PMS, PCOS and maybe even NBE (being a pro-aromatase) so I thought, "Ok, I'll just take more omega 3 in the form of krill oil/fish oil" (as you mentioned NaturalLady). But this raises another issue/mystery. Is fish oil good or bad for NBE?? What do you think, Lotus? Some sources (and members on here too) state that fish oil raises testosterone (yikes). There are quite a few threads and debates about this. Here's one: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7774 

I actually have a feeling fish oil could raise testosterone, but I'm not sure. I'm not willing to experiment lol If this is true, which component/substance in fish oil raises T? Is it the DHA? I hope it's not the omega 6, which we need (not only for NBE but for overall health!). Is there a solution (omega 6 source that doesn't inhibit NBE, if this is true)?

I believe n-3 PUFAs can displace n-6 PUFAs, in other words improving the omega 3 index not only improves insulin resistance but lowers (or prevents) the symptoms of PCOS....which PCOS is driven by impaired insulin production. I also found the higher ratio of n-6 PUFAs over omega 3's can contribute to higher pool androgen levels. 

Hormonal and metabolic effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids in young women with polycystic ovary syndrome: results from a cross-sectional analysis and a randomized, placebo-controlled, crossover trial1–4 
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/93/3/652.full.pdf

Is fish oil ok for NBE?.....possibly, personally I prefer krill oil over fish oil.....krill is said to be 48 times stronger than fish oil. 

Enhanced increase of omega-3 index in healthy individuals with response to 4-week n-3 fatty acid supplementation from krill oil versus fish oil
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...12-178.pdf

Btw, myo-inositol improves PCOS too, and inositol is pro-aromatase.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27898267
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...2/abstract

Another benefit for improving the omega 3 index (for NBE) it's this....higher androgen index produces increased luteinizing hormone (LH) secretion, which produces androstenedione, and A4 (Δdioneindirectly produces E2 (estradiol) by way of aromatase. (another example please see DHEA study):

DHEA metabolites activate estrogen receptors alpha and beta
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3529809/

Speaking of Aromatase: I've listed the info a couple of times, but retinoids (vitamin A) are pro-aromatase too. 

Retinoic acids promote the action of aromatase and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 on the biosynthesis of 17beta-estradiol in placental cells.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1178...t=Abstract

Thanks to Zara and Lotus for chiming in here with good info!  Bettie, looks like you're already doing good things regarding PCOS and aromatase, so that's encouraging! Smile

Thanks for helping bring some clarity to these omega questions. It seems that we don't need to shy away from 3's.  And it also sounds like if we focus on promoting aromatase, the possible increase in androgens from omega 3's would be a non-issue.
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#58

(10-07-2017, 04:15 AM)Lotus Wrote:  
(09-07-2017, 04:24 PM)bettie32 Wrote:  
(09-07-2017, 01:26 AM)Lotus Wrote:  
(08-07-2017, 08:43 PM)NaturalLady31 Wrote:  Good one, Bettie! I too have always read that we need much more omega 3's.    I'm not keen on the idea of ramping up anything that could promote inflammation (who would want to??)

This is true.....there is no earthly benefit to systemic inflammation...especially when most major illness comes from the inflammation in cells (in other words, proliferation). The 1:1 ratio is ideally synergistic for all things considered (e.g. mRNA, DNA synthesis....and the mitochondrial matrix).

good point Bettie.

Thank you Lotus, NaturalLady and Surferjoe.

Exactly Lotus, 1:1 ratio is healthier and safer. It makes more sense. Not sure who on earth came up with the 4:1 ratio and why he/she thinks inflammation is good...

Now, I still want to continue taking EPO (omega 6), low dose, because it's good for PMS, PCOS and maybe even NBE (being a pro-aromatase) so I thought, "Ok, I'll just take more omega 3 in the form of krill oil/fish oil" (as you mentioned NaturalLady). But this raises another issue/mystery. Is fish oil good or bad for NBE?? What do you think, Lotus? Some sources (and members on here too) state that fish oil raises testosterone (yikes). There are quite a few threads and debates about this. Here's one: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7774 

I actually have a feeling fish oil could raise testosterone, but I'm not sure. I'm not willing to experiment lol If this is true, which component/substance in fish oil raises T? Is it the DHA? I hope it's not the omega 6, which we need (not only for NBE but for overall health!). Is there a solution (omega 6 source that doesn't inhibit NBE, if this is true)?

I believe n-3 PUFAs can displace n-6 PUFAs, in other words improving the omega 3 index not only improves insulin resistance but lowers (or prevents) the symptoms of PCOS....which PCOS is driven by impaired insulin production. I also found the higher ratio of n-6 PUFAs over omega 3's can contribute to higher pool androgen levels. 

Hormonal and metabolic effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids in young women with polycystic ovary syndrome: results from a cross-sectional analysis and a randomized, placebo-controlled, crossover trial1–4 
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/93/3/652.full.pdf

Is fish oil ok for NBE?.....possibly, personally I prefer krill oil over fish oil.....krill is said to be 48 times stronger than fish oil. 

Enhanced increase of omega-3 index in healthy individuals with response to 4-week n-3 fatty acid supplementation from krill oil versus fish oil
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...12-178.pdf

Btw, myo-inositol improves PCOS too, and inositol is pro-aromatase.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27898267
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...2/abstract

Another benefit for improving the omega 3 index (for NBE) it's this....higher androgen index produces increased luteinizing hormone (LH) secretion, which produces androstenedione, and A4 (Δdioneindirectly produces E2 (estradiol) by way of aromatase. (another example please see DHEA study):

DHEA metabolites activate estrogen receptors alpha and beta
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3529809/

Speaking of Aromatase: I've listed the info a couple of times, but retinoids (vitamin A) are pro-aromatase too. 

Retinoic acids promote the action of aromatase and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 on the biosynthesis of 17beta-estradiol in placental cells.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1178...t=Abstract

Interesting Lotus about the retinoids beeing aromatase...that explains why carrots are always inboobie growth food lists.. i always thought it were the fibers in carrots beeing pro nbe...goes off snacking on carrots......
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#59

(10-07-2017, 10:09 PM)hannah Wrote:  Interesting Lotus about the retinoids beeing aromatase...that explains why carrots are always inboobie growth food lists.. i always thought it were the fibers in carrots beeing pro nbe...goes off snacking on carrots......

Yes Hannah, we need to eat more carrots...or better yet, carrot cake Big Grin 
We really need to add carrot cake to the list of food for NBE!
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#60

So reading more on wikipedia about saturated fats apparently there are different kinds that raise HDL (good) and/or LDL (bad) cholesterol in differing amounts.  While the unsaturated fats including omega 3s tend to lower cholesterol.  I thought I'd add that info here.
  • Lauric raises HDL a lot, more than any other fatty acid, and LDL somewhat.  It's high in coconut oil and palm *kernal* oil.
  • Myristic acid raises cholesterol a lot, though HDL more than LDL.  It's also high in coconut oil and palm *kernal* oil.  Butter has some too.
  • Palmitic acid raises LDL a lot.  It's super high in palm oil and high animal fat.  Palm oil is about as bad as trans fats and much worse than animal fats, yet palm oil is a recent "substitute" for trans fats.
  • Stearic acid has little effect on cholesterol.  It's high in animal fat, cocoa butter and shea butter.  Animal fat and cocoa butter are also high in palmitic acid though.  Shea butter is primarily oleic acid (unsaturated omega 9) and stearic acid, so it's nicer.  Shea butter goes rancid fast and doesn't taste good though.
  • Palmitoleic acid, while technically an unsaturated omega 7, raises LDL cholesterol.  It's high in macademia nut oil and sea buckthorn oil.  But oleic acid (omega 9) is also high in these two and in olive oil and lowers cholesterol.
So coconut oil isn't as neutral as I thought.  That would be stearic acid / shea butter.  Coconut oil is quite nice.  Palm *kernal* oil also makes a good cheap substitute for coconut oil.  Though excessive amounts of coconut oil or palm kernal oil might still raise overall cholesterol an undesirable amount.

And looks like we've done a good job of making butter and lard substitutes that are actually twice as bad as what they replaced.

All the saturated fats are solid fats.  Liquid oils are explained in other posts above.

TL;DR: I'd cook with coconut oil, olive oil and walnut oil.  Start with a spoonful of walnut oil and/or olive oil (try to get both), but as you go to larger amounts switch over to coconut oil.  If you supplement with chia seeds or flax oil/seeds then you don't need walnut oil, and it's healthier too.  Most importantly eat lots of oily seafood and/or supplement 1,000-2,000 mg EPA, DHA and DPA (or more is fine).  And while not good, butter is healthier than most other options not in this paragraph.  Way healthier than fake butter.

Sea buckthorn oil, evening primrose oil, and borage oil seem to be mostly shams.  They're nice, but other more common and cheaper oils are better.  See previous paragraph.  The elderly might benefit from EPO or borage oil if anything; young people probably make their own GLAs assuming they get other healthy oils and so on.
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