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Topical phytoestrogens

#1

Topical products that contain phytoestrogens by brands like Sublime Bust, Ainterol and Naturaful  have got me thinking....

If we ingest phytoestrogens, we know how they work (well, more or less) but when it comes to breast enhancing creams, serums and sprays that you apply on your breasts, how do they work, precisely? 

I've done some research and read many threads on the forum and what I've gathered is that the phytoestrogens in the breast topicals don't go directly to your breasts, making them bigger. You cannot target where the estrogen will go. Estrogen and progesterone creams work by entering your body (even through the skin on your wrist). So why do these topicals have to be applied on the breasts (that's how they're being sold, right)?? 

If I start rubbing some breast enlargement serum that contains pueraria mirifica on my right toe, my toe's obviously not going to become Kim Kardashian (curvy/feminine). Or do breast lotions work because there are actual glands/receptors in the breasts that the phytoestrogens stimulate? Still, there are some butt creams that contain phytoestrogens that promise bigger butts but I highly doubt that the phytoestrogens are going to work only in the butt area! I believe that's not how hormones work.

Many women have said that their butts also grew from taking PM orally (some women actually have said that the only thing that grew was their butt) so I'm wondering: does it matter where we apply topical phytoestrogens?? My logic is telling me, if we apply topical phytoestrogens on our stomach, it will still affect the rest of our body (i.e. boobs and/or butt). What are your thoughts?
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#2

(04-07-2017, 07:31 PM)bettie32 Wrote:  Topical products that contain phytoestrogens by brands like Sublime Bust, Ainterol and Naturaful  have got me thinking....

If we ingest phytoestrogens, we know how they work (well, more or less) but when it comes to breast enhancing creams, serums and sprays that you apply on your breasts, how do they work, precisely? 

I've done some research and read many threads on the forum and what I've gathered is that the phytoestrogens in the breast topicals don't go directly to your breasts, making them bigger. You cannot target where the estrogen will go. Estrogen and progesterone creams work by entering your body (even through the skin on your wrist). So why do these topicals have to be applied on the breasts (that's how they're being sold, right)?? 

If I start rubbing some breast enlargement serum that contains pueraria mirifica on my right toe, my toe's obviously not going to become Kim Kardashian (curvy/feminine). Or do breast lotions work because there are actual glands/receptors in the breasts that the phytoestrogens stimulate? Still, there are some butt creams that contain phytoestrogens that promise bigger butts but I highly doubt that the phytoestrogens are going to work only in the butt area! I believe that's not how hormones work.

Many women have said that their butts also grew from taking PM orally (some women actually have said that the only thing that grew was their butt) so I'm wondering: does it matter where we apply topical phytoestrogens?? My logic is telling me, if we apply topical phytoestrogens on our stomach, it will still affect the rest of our body (i.e. boobs and/or butt). What are your thoughts?

I do agree that you cannot target where estrogen will go to an extent.  I do think that it works like most creams/ointments/salves that people buy for various reasons:  "apply directly to the affected area".  If you have chest congestion, you don't put vicks on your legs  Big Grin .  Yes, anything that you put on the skin is going to be absorbed and distributed through your bloodstream, although it will be in smaller amounts.  Kind of like if you put a garlic clove in your sock to fight infection and go about your day.  Eventually, you will taste garlic in your mouth because it has circulated throughout your body, but your foot will have a strong spicy smell!  Tongue  Plus, estrogen stores in fat i.e. boobs, belly, and butt which is why I would not apply any phytoestrogen topical to my stomach.  I think what it comes down to is the individual themselves and their active estrogen receptors, which is why some people gain butt from taking phytoestrogen supplements or gain breasts from a "booty pill".  I like to think estrogen receptors in the body like passengers at train stations.  Maybe station #1(breasts) has a handful of passengers but station #2(butt) has a lot of passengers.  The train(phytoestrogen supplement) says there aren't enough passengers at station #1 to make this trip worth it, I'm going to skip it and go straight to station #2.  So with topicals, you're basically forcing the train to go to station #1 and hope that in time, more and more passengers show up until you have an equal distribution of traffic between both stations.  I hope that made some type of sense, I'm in the middle of cooking.
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#3

(04-07-2017, 09:03 PM)Ruby M. Wrote:  I do agree that you cannot target where estrogen will go to an extent.  I do think that it works like most creams/ointments/salves that people buy for various reasons:  "apply directly to the affected area".  If you have chest congestion, you don't put vicks on your legs  Big Grin .  Yes, anything that you put on the skin is going to be absorbed and distributed through your bloodstream, although it will be in smaller amounts.  Kind of like if you put a garlic clove in your sock to fight infection and go about your day.  Eventually, you will taste garlic in your mouth because it has circulated throughout your body, but your foot will have a strong spicy smell!  Tongue  Plus, estrogen stores in fat i.e. boobs, belly, and butt which is why I would not apply any phytoestrogen topical to my stomach.  I think what it comes down to is the individual themselves and their active estrogen receptors, which is why some people gain butt from taking phytoestrogen supplements or gain breasts from a "booty pill".  I like to think estrogen receptors in the body like passengers at train stations.  Maybe station #1(breasts) has a handful of passengers but station #2(butt) has a lot of passengers.  The train(phytoestrogen supplement) says there aren't enough passengers at station #1 to make this trip worth it, I'm going to skip it and go straight to station #2.  So with topicals, you're basically forcing the train to go to station #1 and hope that in time, more and more passengers show up until you have an equal distribution of traffic between both stations.  I hope that made some type of sense, I'm in the middle of cooking.

Thank you for your thorough reply, RubyM!  Yes, you're right, vicks won't help you breathe better if you put it on your legs lol 
It doesn't contain phytoestrogens though....phytoestrogens are quite powerful. So yeah, it depends on the substance being applied on the skin. Something like cocoa butter or shea butter obviously will just make the skin softer wherever you apply it but phytoestrogens....their work is much "deeper". I actually got scared the other month when I tried out essential oils (some of them can affect your hormones, I recently discovered this by the way). I applied some on my wrist (forgot to dilute it too Rolleyes  ) and it gave me palpitations. Some women have claimed that they got their periods with certain essential oils. Proves how certain substances go through your skin, through your blood, enter your system and.....that's why one needs to be very cautious with certain topicals.

Wow, I didn't know that garlic could do that?? Incredible....one should never underestimate things. Even a vegetable. Actually it's a bulb/plant, but still...

Exactly, it depends on the individual. Some get bigger boobs, some get bigger butts or both by ingesting phytoestrogens. As for topicals, I like your train metaphor! Come to think of it, I've never heard of anyone growing a bigger butt from using a breast cream (on their breast). You might be able to grow a bigger butt from using a breast cream on it though  Smile Though to be honest, I dunno if those butt creams work...
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#4

(04-07-2017, 10:00 PM)bettie32 Wrote:  
(04-07-2017, 09:03 PM)Ruby M. Wrote:  I do agree that you cannot target where estrogen will go to an extent.  I do think that it works like most creams/ointments/salves that people buy for various reasons:  "apply directly to the affected area".  If you have chest congestion, you don't put vicks on your legs  Big Grin .  Yes, anything that you put on the skin is going to be absorbed and distributed through your bloodstream, although it will be in smaller amounts.  Kind of like if you put a garlic clove in your sock to fight infection and go about your day.  Eventually, you will taste garlic in your mouth because it has circulated throughout your body, but your foot will have a strong spicy smell!  Tongue  Plus, estrogen stores in fat i.e. boobs, belly, and butt which is why I would not apply any phytoestrogen topical to my stomach.  I think what it comes down to is the individual themselves and their active estrogen receptors, which is why some people gain butt from taking phytoestrogen supplements or gain breasts from a "booty pill".  I like to think estrogen receptors in the body like passengers at train stations.  Maybe station #1(breasts) has a handful of passengers but station #2(butt) has a lot of passengers.  The train(phytoestrogen supplement) says there aren't enough passengers at station #1 to make this trip worth it, I'm going to skip it and go straight to station #2.  So with topicals, you're basically forcing the train to go to station #1 and hope that in time, more and more passengers show up until you have an equal distribution of traffic between both stations.  I hope that made some type of sense, I'm in the middle of cooking.

Thank you for your thorough reply, RubyM!  Yes, you're right, vicks won't help you breathe better if you put it on your legs lol 
It doesn't contain phytoestrogens though....phytoestrogens are quite powerful. So yeah, it depends on the substance being applied on the skin. Something like cocoa butter or shea butter obviously will just make the skin softer wherever you apply it but phytoestrogens....their work is much "deeper". I actually got scared the other month when I tried out essential oils (some of them can affect your hormones, I recently discovered this by the way). I applied some on my wrist (forgot to dilute it too Rolleyes  ) and it gave me palpitations. Some women have claimed that they got their periods with certain essential oils. Proves how certain substances go through your skin, through your blood, enter your system and.....that's why one needs to be very cautious with certain topicals.

Wow, I didn't know that garlic could do that?? Incredible....one should never underestimate things. Even a vegetable. Actually it's a bulb/plant, but still...

Exactly, it depends on the individual. Some get bigger boobs, some get bigger butts or both by ingesting phytoestrogens. As for topicals, I like your train metaphor! Come to think of it, I've never heard of anyone growing a bigger butt from using a breast cream (on their breast). You might be able to grow a bigger butt from using a breast cream on it though  Smile Though to be honest, I dunno if those butt creams work...

Yeah, the Vicks reference wasn't too helpful. Things sound a lot better in my head, then I read them like Huh lol

Yep, garlic is super potent. I had strep throat and didn't want to go the traditional medicinal route, so I treated it myself. Garlic is an antibacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal and I couldn't bring myself to drink garlic tea and I read somewhere to put it in your sock/shoe. I didn't believe it, but my mom(who is super old-school) agreed that it works. So, I took 4 big slices of garlic and scored them, placed them in my socks and put on some cheap trainers I didn't care about. A couple of hours later, I could taste it in the back of my throat and my mouth--it was weird to taste garlic knowing you haven't eaten any. Garlic, cayenne tea with honey and lemon, and acv cured my strep throat. So, I can't say if garlic was the sole reason(get it? lol) it worked, but I definitely had it circulating in my body.

Honestly, I don't think that any commercial topical product works. PM cream maybe, but PM just scares the hell out of me in general and just isn't worth it. I remember there was a company shilling a breast pill and cream full of 30 ingredients with dosages too low to do anything as a part of a 6 month program. This same company claimed that they had a NEW formula for butt growth and wanted existing customers to be the first ones to buy a "trial" as an exclusive deal and blah, blah, blah. It was the same ingredients in different orders on both the pills and the cream. My friend lost so much money. It's all snake oil to me, phytoestrogen herbs, some l-arginine in a cream/lotion base packaged as either a breast or butt serum with a pretty label. However, I do think that essential oils in a homemade cream where one can adjust the concentration and ingredients as needed can definitely contribute to breast growth. I just haven't seen the one size fits all approach working very well with nbe with the supplements and creams.
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#5

(05-07-2017, 03:28 AM)Ruby M. Wrote:  Yeah, the Vicks reference wasn't too helpful.  Things sound a lot better in my head, then I read them like  Huh  lol

Yep, garlic is super potent.  I had strep throat and didn't want to go the traditional medicinal route, so I treated it myself.  Garlic is an antibacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal and I couldn't bring myself to drink garlic tea and I read somewhere to put it in your sock/shoe.  I didn't believe it, but my mom(who is super old-school) agreed that it works.  So, I took 4 big slices of garlic and scored them, placed them in my socks and put on some cheap trainers I didn't care about. A couple of hours later, I could taste it in the back of my throat and my mouth--it was weird to taste garlic knowing you haven't eaten any.  Garlic, cayenne tea with honey and lemon, and acv cured my strep throat.  So, I can't say if garlic was the sole reason(get it? lol) it worked, but I definitely had it circulating in my body.

Honestly, I don't think that any commercial topical product works.  PM cream maybe, but PM just scares the hell out of me in general and just isn't worth it.  I remember there was a company shilling a breast pill and cream full of 30 ingredients with dosages too low to do anything as a part of a 6 month program.  This same company claimed that they had a NEW formula for butt growth and wanted existing customers to be the first ones to buy a "trial" as an exclusive deal and blah, blah, blah.  It was the same ingredients in different orders on both the pills and the cream.  My friend lost so much money.  It's all snake oil to me, phytoestrogen herbs, some l-arginine in a cream/lotion base packaged as either a breast or butt serum with a pretty label.  However, I do think that essential oils in a homemade cream where one can adjust the concentration and ingredients as needed can definitely contribute to breast growth.  I just haven't seen the one size fits all approach working very well with nbe with the supplements and creams.

One never stops learning! lol Yes maybe garlic wasn't the "sole" reason your strep throat was cured  Smile I do recall using some on a pimple and it burnt my skin off....ginger is another strong one. If you have a back ache, just grate some and apply it on your back....it gets nice and warm, alleviating pain.

I also have my doubts when it comes to certain topical products (especially those that contain a million ingredients and promise to give you "the breasts of your dreams").  
It does seem people get results using the ones containing PM (by Purafem, Ainterol etc.). I admit that I am tempted and one day might try one (would use sparingly though and I almost feel like cycling a PM topical but it doesn't seem like topicals work that way...another thing I don't understand). I can see why you're scared  though as PM is probably the strongest phytoestrogen and if you're estrogen dominant, you should stay away. If you don't want to use topicals containing hormones, have you ever taken a look at volufiline/volupulus?
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#6

(05-07-2017, 01:26 PM)bettie32 Wrote:  
(05-07-2017, 03:28 AM)Ruby M. Wrote:  Yeah, the Vicks reference wasn't too helpful.  Things sound a lot better in my head, then I read them like  Huh  lol

Yep, garlic is super potent.  I had strep throat and didn't want to go the traditional medicinal route, so I treated it myself.  Garlic is an antibacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal and I couldn't bring myself to drink garlic tea and I read somewhere to put it in your sock/shoe.  I didn't believe it, but my mom(who is super old-school) agreed that it works.  So, I took 4 big slices of garlic and scored them, placed them in my socks and put on some cheap trainers I didn't care about. A couple of hours later, I could taste it in the back of my throat and my mouth--it was weird to taste garlic knowing you haven't eaten any.  Garlic, cayenne tea with honey and lemon, and acv cured my strep throat.  So, I can't say if garlic was the sole reason(get it? lol) it worked, but I definitely had it circulating in my body.

Honestly, I don't think that any commercial topical product works.  PM cream maybe, but PM just scares the hell out of me in general and just isn't worth it.  I remember there was a company shilling a breast pill and cream full of 30 ingredients with dosages too low to do anything as a part of a 6 month program.  This same company claimed that they had a NEW formula for butt growth and wanted existing customers to be the first ones to buy a "trial" as an exclusive deal and blah, blah, blah.  It was the same ingredients in different orders on both the pills and the cream.  My friend lost so much money.  It's all snake oil to me, phytoestrogen herbs, some l-arginine in a cream/lotion base packaged as either a breast or butt serum with a pretty label.  However, I do think that essential oils in a homemade cream where one can adjust the concentration and ingredients as needed can definitely contribute to breast growth.  I just haven't seen the one size fits all approach working very well with nbe with the supplements and creams.

One never stops learning! lol Yes maybe garlic wasn't the "sole" reason your strep throat was cured  Smile I do recall using some on a pimple and it burnt my skin off....ginger is another strong one. If you have a back ache, just grate some and apply it on your back....it gets nice and warm, alleviating pain.

I also have my doubts when it comes to certain topical products (especially those that contain a million ingredients and promise to give you "the breasts of your dreams").  
It does seem people get results using the ones containing PM (by Purafem, Ainterol etc.). I admit that I am tempted and one day might try one (would use sparingly though and I almost feel like cycling a PM topical but it doesn't seem like topicals work that way...another thing I don't understand). I can see why you're scared  though as PM is probably the strongest phytoestrogen and if you're estrogen dominant, you should stay away. If you don't want to use topicals containing hormones, have you ever taken a look at volufiline/volupulus?

Some of these PM creams are as strong as some estrogen creams, so people will absolutely get results if they're estrogen deficient.  I actually think cycling it is a great idea.  And you said the key thing: use sparingly.  I think some people apply the "more is better" amount and it leads to disaster.

I don't mind topical hormones, I made a cream containing fenugreek extract, menthol crystals, essentials oils of fennel, lavender, and cinnamon in a coconut oil/shea and cocoa butter base.  I like it a lot, but it took a while before I figured out my perfect formula.  I just have control issues, I want to be able to adjust any and everything.

I'm still on the fence about volufiline, I've read that you need at least 10% to actually do anything.  I remember see sellers that on ebay that sold pure volufiline, I could make my own. I could do one with herbs, one without, hmmmm...
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#7

(05-07-2017, 08:54 PM)Ruby M. Wrote:  Some of these PM creams are as strong as some estrogen creams, so people will absolutely get results if they're estrogen deficient.  I actually think cycling it is a great idea.  And you said the key thing: use sparingly.  I think some people apply the "more is better" amount and it leads to disaster.

I don't mind topical hormones, I made a cream containing fenugreek extract, menthol crystals, essentials oils of fennel, lavender, and cinnamon in a coconut oil/shea and cocoa butter base.  I like it a lot, but it took a while before I figured out my perfect formula.  I just have control issues, I want to be able to adjust any and everything.

I'm still on the fence about volufiline, I've read that you need at least 10% to actually do anything.  I remember see sellers that on ebay that sold pure volufiline, I could make my own. I could do one with herbs, one without, hmmmm...

Yep, I'm a firm believer of "less is more" (well not when it comes to chocolate...but really, one shouldn't mess around with hormones. Better start low and yes, use sparingly). 

Your cream sounds very interesting. It's better to come up with your own concotions, that way you actually know what exactly you are putting on your breasts. So many mainstream products contain a bunch of harmful chemicals.

It seems volufiline builds fat and it's just temporary so if one doesn't mind having to use it forever it could be an option....then again, this goes back to the big question: does NBE in general give permanent results but that's another story.... Smile
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#8

I'm supposed to be lowering my sugar intake and my mother made mini apple pies and chocolate cheesecakes for the 4th of July and my fiancee brought all the leftovers home. "More is better" has always been our dessert motto, so I have a real struggle on my hands.

Exactly, I try to keep things as simple as possible. I think often with NBE, we get excited with all of the possible herbs, essential oils, ingredients, etc. and you want to buy everything and use everything when you may only need to take 5 herbs as opposed to 15. My wallet and I learned that the hard way Sad

Hmm, I plan on massaging forever just for health and preventative measures but I don't know how I feel about using volufiline forever. I would have to get a wholesale amount and who knows what the shelf life is on that. I just checked amazon, and the reviews I read did nothing to convince me. I think that NBE gives permanent results, there are a lot of people on here who have gained and not lost anything once they stopped. From what I observed, it seems that results from massage take longer to show than herbs, NB, or BO.
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#9

(06-07-2017, 11:55 PM)Ruby M. Wrote:  I'm supposed to be lowering my sugar intake and my mother made mini apple pies and chocolate cheesecakes for the 4th of July and my fiancee brought all the leftovers home.  "More is better" has always been our dessert motto, so I have a real struggle on my hands.

Exactly, I try to keep things as simple as possible.  I think often with NBE, we get excited with all of the possible herbs, essential oils, ingredients, etc. and you want to buy everything and use everything when you may only need to take 5 herbs as opposed to 15.  My wallet and I learned that the hard way  Sad

Hmm, I plan on massaging forever just for health and preventative measures but I don't know how I feel about using volufiline forever.  I would have to get a wholesale amount and who knows what the shelf life is on that.  I just checked amazon, and the reviews I read did nothing to convince me.  I think that NBE gives permanent results, there are a lot of people on here who have gained and not lost anything once they stopped.  From what I observed, it seems that results from massage take longer to show than herbs, NB, or  BO.

Absolutely. "less is more" when it comes to herbs/certain supplements and "more is more" when it comes to dessert  Big Grin

Yes, massage is good for your breasts/circulation etc. so it's great that you're continuing. I just feel defeated lol after about one year and a half of massaging and no results. Investing so much time and energy and then...nada! I didn't really do anything else besides massaging (except for some herbal teas) in the beginning though so maybe it's the combination of things that yield better results. What does your NBE plan look like Ruby? I know that you're taking the extracts (spearmint, reishi and white peony) and msm...
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#10

(07-07-2017, 12:48 PM)bettie32 Wrote:  
(06-07-2017, 11:55 PM)Ruby M. Wrote:  I'm supposed to be lowering my sugar intake and my mother made mini apple pies and chocolate cheesecakes for the 4th of July and my fiancee brought all the leftovers home.  "More is better" has always been our dessert motto, so I have a real struggle on my hands.

Exactly, I try to keep things as simple as possible.  I think often with NBE, we get excited with all of the possible herbs, essential oils, ingredients, etc. and you want to buy everything and use everything when you may only need to take 5 herbs as opposed to 15.  My wallet and I learned that the hard way  Sad

Hmm, I plan on massaging forever just for health and preventative measures but I don't know how I feel about using volufiline forever.  I would have to get a wholesale amount and who knows what the shelf life is on that.  I just checked amazon, and the reviews I read did nothing to convince me.  I think that NBE gives permanent results, there are a lot of people on here who have gained and not lost anything once they stopped.  From what I observed, it seems that results from massage take longer to show than herbs, NB, or  BO.

Absolutely. "less is more" when it comes to herbs/certain supplements and "more is more" when it comes to dessert  Big Grin

Yes, massage is good for your breasts/circulation etc. so it's great that you're continuing. I just feel defeated lol after about one year and a half of massaging and no results. Investing so much time and energy and then...nada! I didn't really do anything else besides massaging (except for some herbal teas) in the beginning though so maybe it's the combination of things that yield better results. What does your NBE plan look like Ruby? I know that you're taking the extracts (spearmint, reishi and white peony) and msm...

I've definitely been there, before I knew anything about NBE and how it worked I googled "herbs for breastfeeding" and bought literally 20 different herbs that i mixed together and made tea with and drank that for a year while massaging with borage oil with some fenugreek infused vegetable oil that i bought from chinatown. It didn't work and I was so disappointed that I threw everything away and completely wrote it off and was secretly considering breast implants until my friend got them and had complications almost immediately after.

My program from Feb. until now has been:

diet:
90-100 grams of protein
high healthy fat
lots of dark leafy greens
low starch (can't cut it out completely)
low sugar(can't cut it out completely)
bone broth

supplements:
MSM w/ Vitamin C(take in am)
Maca(blend has red, yellow, and black)(take in am)
Red Clover(2x/day)
Fenugreek(2x/day)
Spearmint(3x/day)
Reishi(3x/day)
White Peony Root(3x/day)

evening massage cream:
fenugreek extract
fennel e.o.
lavender e.o.
cinnamon bark e.o.
coconut oil
shea butter
cocoa butter
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