[poison]

Crystalelle,
Unfortunately it is NOT a typing error. I guess I misunderstood the author, so I didn't took the milk thistle orally:s . Do you think that's the reason for this?
All herbs are 5 mg/pill, which means I'm taking 15 mg fenugreek, 15 mg saw palmetto and 15 mg red clover a day.
The reason I'm not taking soy milk with the herbs is that I'm on a low carb regimen for 2-3 years now so I'm taking enough protein already.
I stopped applying this herbal tea on the skin, but I'm still massaging. I might have a reaction to some of the other herb in this tea...will see.
PS: I also forgot to mention that my nails are "splitting". Not that I ever had hard and unbreakable nails, but now they got worse.

[crystalelle]

Poison,

I am not an expert with herbs. But all your side effects make me worry about you. For all my few years of taking herbs I have few side effects of menstrual delay, migraine and menstrual pain. Even in this forum I haven't come across people who has similar side effect as you.

I know a person who is quite good with herbs here. His nick name is Wahaika. If I were you I would send him a pm for guidance. The following is one of his thread. I am not sure whether he still swing by to this forum. He is available in the BE board (another forum)

http://beboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=3029

Good luck!

[Bibi]

Hi, just want to mention that the hair loss can be due to hormonal changes. I had massive hair loss when I was taking bc and then later on after my pregnancies. I never really found a cure for that, only stopping with the pill and waiting it out (it did take some months, though).

The other reactions sound like an allergy, perhaps you could try again taking one herb at a time to see how you respond, or maybe switch on to a pump or bo.
As for strawberries, yeah they can be very bad! I had a friend who was extremely allergic to them, very dangerous.

[poison]

Hi, girls. I'm posting on this tread, because it might be helpful to someone else with the same side effects.

You are taking 15mg of each herb? Can you provide the exact product you are taking internally and externally- maybe provide a link to each one online? I would like to see what other ingredients there might be.
I will also need to know: Sex, Age, Height, Weight, Had any children?
On any medications? Did you start your program on cycle day 1? If not, what day?
I also need to know some things about your diet. I am especially interested in your intake of protein, dark leafy greens, and carbs (high glycemic like candy, juice, potatoes, rice, corn, pasta, etc.) or low glycemic carbs like vegetables. Please provide everything you can remember for the last three days as an example of typical meals.
The tiny red pimples could be from a number of things including the grit from powdered herbs, ingredients from a carrier such as an oil or a lotion, red clover, a need for a liver cleanse, heat (this is summer) - OR if you started the herbs all at once instead of ramping up gradually, one at a time. But I suspect that will clear itself up

I'm taking 15 mg a day from each herb (total 45 ml/day) Link of the products: fenugreek; saw palmetto; red clover - all taken interanlly. I use to massage with herbal tea which contains Fruit Anisi; Fruit Anethi; Seeds Foenu graeci; Fruit Foeniculi. I stop massaging with it 3 days ago because I suspect it gave me the small pimples on my chest and irritated skin to my whole body.
I'm 27 years old female, do not have children. I'm 5' 23" tall (160 cm) and currently 125, 67 lbs (57 kg).
I hate all kind of pills, so I do not take any. I started the program on the first day of my period-the first 2 days I took only fenugreek (3 pills), then added the saw palmetto at 3rd day (3 pills) and from 5th day on I'm taking the three herbs. The side effects appeared after a week.
My diet is actually a way of life-it's high fat low carb regimen I've been on for 3 years. I do not eat sugar products and I drink only water and black coffee! Carbs are lowered to 10-15% of the daily calorie intake (1600-1700 cal), which means I avoid starchy vegetables. Mostly meat (red), eggs, offals, raw nuts and vegetables, diary products, cold pressed oils, butter. I also avoid eating too much fruits. I know the food is not the problem because all started when I started taking the herbs. I also workout, so I'm also fit and with low body fat.
My skin is very sensitive and irritates easily-this is why I only buy products I tested and which are not causing any irritations.
The only allergy I'm aware of is from eggs and that's why I do not eat any!
If you have more questions, please ask!

[Wahaika]

Hello Poison,

OK, so here is what we have so far:

Female age 27
About 5'3", 125lbs, no chilren
Good diet and exercise

-----------------
Fenugreek (NOW Foods)
Saw Palmetto (NOW Foods)
Red Clover (Nature's Way)

Your original message says that you are taking 3 X each of these per day. If I assume that you mean 3 capsules, (rather than 3 servings which is two capsules) then you are getting:
Fenugreek: 500mg X 3 = 1500mg
Saw Palmetto 550mg X 3 = 1650mg
Red Clover 500mg X 3 = 1500mg

This is different than "15 mg a day from each herb (total 45 ml/day)."
ml = milliliters = volume
mg = milligrams = weight
Also, when discussing ml of extracts it is also important to know the strength (1 to 1, 4 to 1, 10 to 1, etc.)

Is "15 mg a day from each herb (total 45 ml/day)" a paraphrase of what you described in your first thread; "3 x saw palmetto, 3 x fenugreek and 3 x red clover blossoms?" (BTW, Nature's Way uses more than the blossoms)
------------------

You are massaging with a tea made with the following ingredients:
Anisi=Star Anise
Anethi= Dill
Foenu graeci = Fenugreek
Foeniculi = Fennel

Is this a tea that you put together or purchased? If purchased, are there any other ingredients/fillers? You could be allergic to one of these other ingredients when rubbed into the skin. I agree with you that it could be one of the ingredients in the tea. Has the "rash" made any progress one way or the other since discontinuing the massage with the tea?

I would suggest a steeped mixture (for no less than a week) of Olive oil, fenugreek powder, and EPO or borage oil. Massage it in and follow with 30 minutes of low heat.
------------------

If the problem is any of the internals, it is very likely the Red Clover. The Genestein in Red Clover interferes with thyroid function resulting in a slow thyroid. Most of the symptoms you describe all point to that.

Fenugreek can increase insulin which will lower blood sugar and lower SHBG. This can result in headaches that you describe, and will raise free testosterone. The increase in free testosterone could explain the pimples, assuming that internals could be causing this, but a slow thyroid could also explain it.

My suggestions:
Change the massage batter.
Discontinue Red Clover.
Add Kelp. Nature's way is a good brand. Take as suggested, one capsule once per day.
Keep some hard candy close by as a quick fix for the headaches. Try it, they should go away within minutes if fenugreek is the cause. Long term, increase your carb intake for the meals preceding the headaches.
Add flaxseed oil. 1000mg three times per day.
Add Mexican Wild Yam, but ony because it is a good addition to your program.
Optimal dosages for NBE purposes: You can experiment to see what works best for you. If you want to see if you have an allergy, stop everything, wait a couple of weeks, then reintroduce them, one at a time per week, no more than 500mg per day, and observe any effects.

Wahaika

[poison]

Wahaika, thanks for replying.
I want to clarify the intake of herbs: I take the herbs in three servings (at morning, at lunge, at night). In each serving I take 1 pill per herb, which makes total of 3 pills per herb per day!
The tea is from the herbs mentioned. I went to a herbal store and I saw this tea (which is meant to increase lactation in pregnant women)-it is made from herbs only. After stopping it, the small pimples on my breasts are gone (could it be the star anise causing the rash - I have this feeling...), but other side effects are not. I will stop the red clover as suggested and will try another massage batter.
I do not want to raise my testosterone more, that was the reason I started taking these herbs. If taking herbs do me more "harm", then I should stop them all!
*PS: red clover was advertised as red clover blossoms and I saw that there is something else in it as well after I bought it...