[fenugreekaddict]

I am taking a low dose of fenugreek over time. I take about 1-2 capsules per day and wondering about the long-term effects and what alternatives I may have to obtain the same sensitivity in my nipples (or increase it!)

It's incredible taking fenugreek isn't it? Amazing sensitivity and tingling! I wish I could up the dosage but more just makes my heart rate ping so keeping low and safe at 1 a day.

[CousinRose]

Hey fenugreekaddict. I don't have the answer to your question but wanted to ask: Have you seen results on such a low dosage? I tried using fenugreek once but could only use very low dosages as well because it gave my headaches. I stopped because I didn't think such a low dosage would make any difference. I might begin again if I have a change of growing with very low dosages

[fenugreekaddict]

Everything I have found on the web suggests that it's a great herb for a genetic male to take. It helps with digestion, libido, it's fiber, etc. It might be a low dose but I can feel the tingle in my breasts when I am taking it so that means something is going on!

[molehills]

Hi, I never heard of fenugreek doing that to your heart rate unless it is giving you low blood sugar which can increase your heart rate, make you feel shaky, etc...you want to be careful with that. Fenugreek shouldn't be sued by people with diabetes for instance.
Have you tried fennel instead? It is also a phytoestrogen but works without lowering your blood sugar. Many people have used it in their programs.

[jorisabomo]

fenugreek does give you sensitivity on those raisins, it does tingle for some reason.

But in all honesty, all scientific honesty, fenugreek, like a few other phytoestrogens allegedly support the increase in prolactin (as a galactogue) in effort to promote milk production and increase ducts in the mammary glands. A number of scientific studies have showed that it has no effect on rats, yet there are many women who take fenugreek and see results in increase milk supply and even breast size.

[Suri]

I don't think the breast enhancing effect of fenugreek stems from an increase in prolactin levels.

Prolactin may actually be quite counterproductive when trying to increase breast size. Too much prolactin is often associated with high androgen levels. This is probably due to the fact that prolactin inhibits the normal function of the ovaries during pregnancy. Thus it equally inhibits estrogen production.

An excess of prolactin is called hyperprolactinemia and often coincides with decreased estrogen levels, amenorrhea or PCOS.

The breast growth that pregnant women experience is only temporary and due to the milk ducts filling with milk. That's probably not the kind of growth that you want.

Also, if you look at the type of massage that Tiger Lily and others used you will notice that it actually leaves out the nipple. Stimulating the nipple leads to an increase in prolactin as does stress. Prolactin is a stress hormone.

The reason I think fenugreek may be beneficial is that it has insulin-sensitizing properties and of course the phytoestrogens it contains. High insulin levels increase androgen production. The insulin-sensitizing action of fenugreek may lead to lower insulin levels and decreased androgen levels. Here is a link about the insulin-sensitizing action of fenugreek http://www.icmr.nic.in/ijmr/2009/april/0409.pdf.

I think this idea has not been mentioned here before but I think it's well worth considering.

[jorisabomo]

I don't think the breast enhancing effect of fenugreek stems from an increase in prolactin levels.

Prolactin may actually be quite counterproductive when trying to increase breast size. Too much prolactin is often associated with high androgen levels. This is probably due to the fact that prolactin inhibits the normal function of the ovaries during pregnancy. Thus it equally inhibits estrogen production.

An excess of prolactin is called hyperprolactinemia and often coincides with decreased estrogen levels, amenorrhea or PCOS.

The breast growth that pregnant women experience is only temporary and due to the milk ducts filling with milk. That's probably not the kind of growth that you want.

Also, if you look at the type of massage that Tiger Lily and others used you will notice that it actually leaves out the nipple. Stimulating the nipple leads to an increase in prolactin as does stress. Prolactin is a stress hormone.

The reason I think fenugreek may be beneficial is that it has insulin-sensitizing properties and of course the phytoestrogens it contains. High insulin levels increase androgen production. The insulin-sensitizing action of fenugreek may lead to lower insulin levels and decreased androgen levels. Here is a link about the insulin-sensitizing action of fenugreek http://www.icmr.nic.in/ijmr/2009/april/0409.pdf.

I think this idea has not been mentioned here before but I think it's well worth considering.

Pleasure to meet you, Suri. I hope you are doing well and hope you get results from your program.

Fenugreek is used very often as a (lowering) blood sugar herb.

I'd like to say that fenugreek's main reputation begins as an "herbal" lactation aid, or what many called galactogogue. Lactation can only be created, through the production of prolactin, which is the main trigger for lactogenesis. The only way could possibly cause lactation is interfering or disurpting the dopamine system, which usually puts a small spike in prolactin levels. Though, lactation may not occur, if progesterone levels are too high. That's only thing fenugreek would effect when it comes to mammographic activity.

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-def...actogogue/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenugreek#Use



Even in this study below: concerning on the herbs that are allegedly "mastogenic," believes the selected herbs have no such quality in creating breast growth alone. It claims that Fenugreek has not such effect of enlarging breast size or growth by themselves. Though, one of two herbs mentioned in the study of possibly having the capability to do so, is Kava Kava, which did show to have dopamine antagonist effects. Where in other clinical studies with more prominent dopamine antagonist type drugs , some patients showed symptoms of mammoplasia after the rise in prolactin activity. But, no signs of lactation, since is not mentioned in the source link. Since, it is necessarily used for breast growth (stimulant) or even as a milk production aid.

http://www.acog.org/from_home/publicatio...477fla.htm

Though, fenugreek does remain as a potent galactogogue and a reputable emmenagogue (herbs that promotes menstrual flow). Many ladies still use it and see results from it, and most results I would have to attribute to

Prolactin being counterproductive to breast growth is very unlikely. Since, one of its primary effects [even when it elevated] increasing the size of mammary glands in the first place. Usually increased estrogen levels start growths, while prolactin aids in increasing estrogen receptors. It also causes "the breast to store fat [which is probably most essential thing to breast growth] by increasing the production of lipoprotein lipase (LPL) in your breasts.1"

- Effect of raised serum prolactin on breast development.
B M Stringer, J Rowson, and E D Williams
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1256452/

- Hyperprolactinemia (Prolactin Excess)

American Society for Reproductive Medicine
http://www.asrm.org/Patients/FactSheets/...Excess.pdf


Mammary lipoprotein lipase in plasma of cows after parturition or prolactin infusion
http://www.springerlink.com/content/y82r756375471706/

Prolactin reduces fat metabolism
http://insciences.org/article.php?article_id=4006 [Prolactin can inhibit production of ovaries, it doesn't necessarily create androgens in occurance]

[1] http://www.bigger-breast-enlargement.net...mones.html

Prolactin does not cause breast cancer and may prevent it or be therapeutic in some conditions

Medical Hypotheses, Volume 70, Issue 2, Pages 244-251
G. Goodman, D. Bercovich
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/...7707003775

(You have to go to Galileo for the full article)

Distribution and source of lipoprotein lipase in
mouse mammary gland

http://www.jlr.org/cgi/reprint/32/5/733.pdf

http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/arch...01570.html

High prolactin levels aren't a direct cause of PCOS.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/womenshealth/facts/pcos.htm


http://www.pennmedicine.org/encyclopedia/em_PrintArticle.aspx?gcid=001165&ptid=1

Androgen production (or maturation) is not a symptom of high prolactin levels.

http://www.soft-infertility.com/docs/PIProlactin.pdf

http://www.ehow.com/how_2363847_identify...evels.html

http://www.medic8.com/healthguide/articl...actin.html

http://www.cushings-help.com/pcos-prolactin.htm (PCOS can trigger high prolactin levels, but prolactin levels doesn't necessarily do the same in reverse, though it can disrupt the ovarian cycle)



ALso, too much of anything, whether it is prolactin, estrogen, testosterone, or progesterone can cause negative effects on the body. I can certain say the same thing about estrogen and progesterone, which more times than wi

Also, prolactin levels only gradually increase with usages of herbs, most do not skyrocket unless there is overusage or a particular medical condition with the user. Even, if prolacting levels increase, I doubt it would produce more androgens. I would never thought prolactin was known increase production of androgens, though I would think androgen would be more than capable of reducing prolactin levels, since it is a hormone that produces powerful male-sexual characteristic one the body. Though, it is funny that when prolactin occurs in the male body, it usually causes gynecomastia, lower sex drive, infertility, and less testosterone production [1].

[1] http://www.thedoctorsdoctor.com/labtests...terone.htm


Here are few studies that show it as well.

Does androgen influence prolactin secretion?
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/ref/10....7709045734



Androgenerator (An androgen boosting product that substantially increases androgen production, but reduces cortisol and prolactin levels)
http://www.androgenerator.com/

Infertilityrolactin[/b]
http://www.sharedjourney.com/define/prolactin.html

Effects of testosterone and oestrogen on serum
prolactin in the androgen-insensitive rat (Study showed that estrogen had more effects on the prolactin levels of male and pseudohermphoditic male rats than testosterone, which showed almost no changes in the body of the rat subjects)

http://www.reproduction-online.org/cgi/r.../1/169.pdf

[Suri]

Pleasure to meet you too.

Wow what a reply

It is absolutely right that fenugreek is used as a lactation aid and probably does so by stimulating prolactin. Also it surely does stimulate the mammary glands and causes the breast to grow.

It is also true that high prolactin levels as such are not a direct cause of PCOS even though those mechanisms are not fully understood.

However, here is why I think that prolactin is not the factor in fenugreek that causes permanent breast growth. First of all I'd like to point out that any breast growth that occurs due to high levels of prolactin is probably only temporary. The study that you cited on the effect of prolactin on breast development (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1256452/) actually says "for the duration of the experiment". And this effect is als all too common in pregnant women. Most of them have a significant gain in size while pregnant and while nursing but substantially shrink afterward.

Second, even though high prolactin levels are no direct cause of PCOS it still substantially interferes with the endocrine sytem.

It causes elevated androgens via two mechanisms. One is that it directly stimulates the adrenal glands to produce more androgens.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6090494
The other is that by inhibiting the ovarian function it supresses the body's most important source of estrogen. Most of the body's estrogen is produced in the ovaries. This would be enough to throw your body's balance off and even if the production in the adrenal glands remained the same it could give you symptoms of elevated androgens.
This effect would be enhanced by an increased production in the adrenal glands or even in the ovaries by inhibiting FSH which is resposible for converting androgens into estrogens in the granulosa cells and related enzyme activities.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7468715
Of course it does not always happen depending on your individual hormone profile and how much prolactin is present.

The diffenrent effect in men, namely the decreased testosterone production happens because prolactin inhibits hormone production in the gonads (testes or ovaries). Since testosterone is the major hormone that is produced in the testes its production significantly declines. While the major hormone that is produced (or supposed to be produced) in the ovaries is estrogen and thus it is estrogen which declines in women.

But I think you are absolutely right when you say that too much of anything can cause negative effects on the body and that a moderate usage of such herbs will not cause substantial negative side effects.

My point is that I personally don't think that prolactin is of any benefit for *permanent* breast growth and that excess amounts may even be harmful. I wasn't trying to say that taking fenugreek or similar herbs has a negative effect but that you should be careful too increase your prolactin levels any further than necessary. For example by stimulating your nipples or subjecting yourself to large amounts of other physical or mental stress.

Hope that kind of clarifies my post