[EllaC]

So im wanting some opinions on the following..

Lets assume and I realise there's room for debate here...

So what IF taking weaker phytoestrogens/promoters/boosters of hormones etc etc (whatever) DOES in fact cause a build up of lets say 'estrogen' in our systems over a longer period of time.. (not a good thing) Ps I read a disturbing article that indicated long term used of weaker phytoestrogens does in fact lead to estrogen dominance, fibroids and then... well you can guess the rest !

I say estrogen because all these websites all say "boost estrogen" , estrogen is the key yadda yadda. Well we all know that's not the case for a lot of us but for the most part we all read/take note of these websites and come on here with plans to use these supposed estrogen boosters (again I say a lot of us not all..)

So ARE we better off just going for the likes of PM (in the appropriate manner of course) for a few shorter months in the first place instead of going the longer route with the fenugreeks and the fennels etc...?

It just feels to me like inevitably a lot of us turn to PM anyway and see results when all else has failed.

Is it healthier to take PM for a shorter amount of time in the knowledge that it will leave your system relatively quickly once you've stopped using it than toying with weaker herbs that are less likely to work and you have to take them longer??? (all this based of course on the individual having the right hormonal balance to accommodate PM)

Keen to hear thoughts on this

[Dynseli]

Prolactin and progesterone boost each other and lower estrogens. I think phytoprogestins are useful to help balance estrogens out for the right time of a cycle. Physical stimulation and mood may increase prolactin, which may explain why massaging might work. If hypnosis has any merit, prolactin stimulation through mood would be why (not claiming it works).

I'm wondering now, if any phytoestrogen increase is needed for nbe, since (phyto/)progestins and prolactins do the job. I've noticed that increased menstruation is an indication of a lot of estrogens.

Also, a phytoestrogen that binds to an estrogen receptor might not necessarily increase estrogen in the body. There are different actions that phytohormones might take.

[EllaC]

Prolactin and progesterone boost each other and lower estrogens. I think phytoprogestins are useful to help balance estrogens out for the right time of a cycle. Physical stimulation and mood may increase prolactin, which may explain why massaging might work. If hypnosis has any merit, prolactin stimulation through mood would be why (not claiming it works).

I'm wondering now, if any phytoestrogen increase is needed for nbe, since (phyto/)progestins and prolactins do the job. I've noticed that increased menstruation is an indication of a lot of estrogens.

Also, a phytoestrogen that binds to an estrogen receptor might not necessarily increase estrogen in the body. There are different actions that phytohormones might take.

Well I can confirm when I started all this and was taking high doses of mixed herbs I had horrific periods, pain, flow - so much so it put me off. But what I believed to be phytoestrogens turns out aren't so head spin!!!

Picking your brain, what do you believe are phytoprogestins?

[Dynseli]

I saw three papers that mentioned phytoprogestins. They are supposed to be plant chemicals that either mimic or increase progesterone (progestins) (not sure if they have which defined). Here is a recently available paper that lists herbs with progestogenic and estrogenic properties, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3800090/ . It lists red clover, as I've said many times before that can cause sterility. There it also lists mood enhancers, which might increase prolactin, but kava can cause liver failure in less than a month. (you'll have to use kudzu as a reference to pueraria m, and wild yam as a reference for fenugreek)

My theory is that herbs used for breastfeeding also contain phytoprogestins (I don't think weaning herbs help).

If you were asking which herbs I thought were phytoprogestins, I think those are hops, asparagus, milk/blessed thistle, fenugreek, maybe fennel. Not sure about oregano.

What is your opinion?

[EllaC]

I saw three papers that mentioned phytoprogestins. They are supposed to be plant chemicals that either mimic or increase progesterone (progestins) (not sure if they have which defined). Here is a recently available paper that lists herbs with progestogenic and estrogenic properties, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3800090/ . It lists red clover, as I've said many times before that can cause sterility. There it also lists mood enhancers, which might increase prolactin, but kava can cause liver failure in less than a month. (you'll have to use kudzu as a reference to pueraria m, and wild yam as a reference for fenugreek)

My theory is that herbs used for breastfeeding also contain phytoprogestins (I don't think weaning herbs help).

If you were asking which herbs I thought were phytoprogestins, I think those are hops, asparagus, milk/blessed thistle, fenugreek, maybe fennel. Not sure about oregano.

What is your opinion?

Thanks Lovely.
I have no opinion as such. I'm still learning that all I believed about what herbs promote what is all wrong :s
So before I jump into any solid programme again I want to gain as much knowledge as I can so I make an educated plan and not a guesstimated one (if you will)
Thanks for your input

[Dynseli]

Im not guessing about prolactin, progesterone and estrogen's effects. It's very logical. My guess was the potency of certain herbs to make strong effects (which has strong evidence), and whether milk flow promoters are synonymous with certain phytoprogestins.

[Lunice]

I am starting to think no one know how phytoestrogens work,lol.
Maybe it works because they like to stick onto ER-b receptors so our own estrogen gets released from there and has only ER-a receptors left to stick onto which are mostly in our breasts. o.o At the end, it's our own estrogen which does the job haha.
It's just my theory and I am only 19 so don't believe me. xD

By the way, I am considering herbs but don't know which? D= I read that most cause only temporary swelling.