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Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006 at 4:00 AM Ally  (Login Ally1313)
I found an article on the internet about how the key to breast enhancement is NOT estrogen, but progesterone. All the herbs that people are taking contain phyto-estrogens, so they mimic estrogen. Estrogen is supposed to increase body fat from the belly down, not the boobs...

http://www.totalityofbeing.com/ArchivedBreastShape.html

He mentions that wild yam contains progesterone, but I heard that the body can't use it in that form(??). I think the best bet is progesterone cream, 100% USP grade. You're supposed to use it from about the 14th day to the 28th day or something, I'm not entirely sure.

Any feedback would be welcome!




Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 6:27 AM

Progesterone is not the main key, otherwise no woman on this board would grow a centimetre with all the phytoestrogens taken. Dr. Wong has the right idea, but his article mainly applies to women who are estrogen dominant. The key is balance between progesterone and estrogen. Too much or too little of either hormone will not make grow breasts. For those women who already have enough estrogen, then yes, progesterone would be good to balance out the estrogen. For women with enough progesterone, then estrogen would be a wise idea. There is no one-hormone-fits-all, which is why NBE is a trial and error process.




valeryblack
(Login valeryblack)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 6:44 AM

How can I find out if I'm estrogen dominant or not?



Darisha
(Login Darisha)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 7:03 AM

Hi Valeryblack, you can go to www.johnleemd.com and at the bottom of the page take the "hormone balance test" for women. You can't get a complete 100% accurate reading but you can get an idea with just some symptoms you describe in the test. Hope this helps.



valeryblack
(Login valeryblack)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 11:25 AM

thanks. It seem I have low progesterone and am estrogen dominant. Would it then be a bad idea for me to use Wonderup? Where can I buy progesterone cream? (with shipping to Europe)



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 12:34 PM

I disagree, from all the info I've gathered so far I have reasons to believe that estrogen is the main thing - usually. Any generalized claim like that one is not very accurate to begin with, cause we don't all have the same conditions in our bodies, but very diverse and opposite even - some are estrogen dominant, some defficient, some have too much progestins, some have excess angrogens, etc... In estrogen deficiency, I'm quite sure that progesterone compared to estrogen is the main imbalance that stalls development of breasts. In this case it's good to introduce estrogenic agents into the body, while introducing strong progestins like in certain BCP can stall NBE. I believe this is my case and I'll be able to test this hypothesis when I start red clover in my routine, which is estrogenic and also gets rid of excess progesterone.



Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 5:29 PM

I disagree as well. I have heard and am also convinced that IMBALANCE is the key to growth. Think about the times when growth naturally occurs: puberty, pregnancy. I would venture to say that at periods when we are neither experiencing puberty nor pregnancy our hormones are at balanced or near balanced state. I'm no expert, though.



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 7:14 PM

Well depends what you call balance. As far as I know the levels of hormones don't drop after puberty (but after menopuse), so we are in the same balance. I think balance would sooner be the key to growth, balance as some standard values at which hormones do their job, which includes make breasts grow to a certian size determined by genes and other factors. Imbalance are levels at which hormones don't do their job optimally and so hinder development.




Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 10:15 PM

4pomegranate: I am curious: what makes you believe that during puberty or pregnancy, our bodies become hormonally imbalanced?



Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 3:27 AM

I read the progesterone article as well as a bunch of other articles about NBE and hormones...it seems that maybe we need to be taking a lot of BOTH phytoestrogens AND natural progesterones. But the whole hormone thing is still really confusing to me.



Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 5:17 AM

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree I've been taking estrogen rich plants for the past YEAR and have grown absolutely nothing. All my hormone levels were whack, I ended up taking lots of estrogen and very little progesterone, and have nothing to show for it. The doctor finally prescribed a progesterone pill for me to take and we'll just have to see if I grow. All I hear is that progesterone is responsible for upper body growth (boobs) while estrogen is responsible for lower body growth (hips).



Ally
(Login Ally1313)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 5:38 AM

I know that my estrogen level is normal, but I have no idea about my progesterone levels. I am going to take more progesterone-rich herbs, and probably very little estrogen rich stuff. It IS also true that most women are estrogen-dominant, so upping progesterone would help.

But then why is it that during the 14th or so day of your menstrual cycle, progesterone levels SPIKE, estrogen levels decrease, and that's when your boobs tend to swell?

I don't know, now I'm confused (sigh).




Anonymous
(Login organic_angel)
Balance, not dominance is key
December 12 2006, 8:40 AM

Hello organic boobie friends,

I have to add to this thread and say that I have very open communication with my naturopath about my nbe quest. This is a combination of her medical knowledge; mine; and my personal experience.

BOTH estrogen and progesterin are needed for breast growth and health. Too much of either, will stall any routine. That is evident in why one person's routine can be successful with much lower amounts of something that may have mostly or all phytoestrogen ingredients, and for others, this sends them into estrogen overload. This is especially true for menapausal women. ALL hormones decline when in perimenapause and menapause. Ovaries secrete estrogen; progesterin and testosterone. They all decrease with age and especially when entering menapause.

That being said, this is my reasoning for starting my latest routine with BO being the main ingredient/factor. BO affects your ovaries, which again are responsible for balancing ALL necessary hormones. Another thought....PM states to use it during a particular phase of your cycle. Hormone Balance. Phytoestrogens are probably most successful for younger women, while glandulars I believe would be successful for young and older women alike. I started my routine today as a matter of fact, however, I've been taking homeopathic testosterone (temporary) to kick down my extreme estrogen dominance. I have been massaging with cocoa butter and vit E, while waiting for BO and other goodies to arrive. I have to tell you, that in the 10 days I've been doing this.....I've plumped up. Most noticeably on the sides and the nipple area. I also have had a couple slight "twinges" deep in my nipple area. And this is without having started my routine. This makes me very hopeful, and it seems to also justify that hormone balance theory as well.

So, I personally think balance is key, and age factoring into that, and what your body is or isn't responding to. I stumbled across a very comprehensive online hormone profile test not too long ago. I'll see if I can rediscover it and pass it on. It's much, much more indepth than any of the ones I've seen mentioned here.

Organic Boobie Blessings to All



Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 3:47 PM

Like I said before, I'm no expert. Our hormones do shift during pregnancy, that much is obvious to all of us, both progesterone and estrogen are produced in mass amounts, creating an "imbalance" in our bodies it does not experience at any other natural time. There are more hormones to consider also when thinking about balance, like testosterone. I really do not think that we would grow if these hormones were all at an equal ordinary level. There's more information on how our hormones shift during pregnancy here:

http://www.paternityangel.com/Articles_z...sIntro.htm



Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 4:01 PM

Oh yeah, and I forgot to add in puberty. Puberty is when our bodies suddennly introduce an increase of hormones, resulting in growth. This increase is an "imbalance" to what our bodies were used to. Isn't that what we're trying to do here? Give our bodies a boost to start a change similar to that first time?




Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 13 2006, 3:42 AM

Aly- breast swelling is a sign of estrogen being present where it should not be. Technically, when progesterone and estradiol levels are balanced, breast swelling and tenderness should be gone. If breast pain or swelling occurs, it means estrogen is dominant over the progesterone, and is “taking over the house”, so to speak.




Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 13 2006, 3:49 AM

4pomegranate- I understand what you mean, but technically, during times such as puberty or pregnancy, our bodies do not become imbalanced. In fact, the amount of hormone secretions rise to keep the body in balance, otherwise, it would cause all sorts of problems. Increasing hormones during puberty or pregnancy does not mean imbalance, but rather a sign that one’s body is working properly. The amount of each hormone produced is at its normal level when looked at during the situation of each expectant change (puberty or pregnancy). Each hormone interacts with or stimulates another hormone to a certain degree.

Take pregnancy, for example. Progesterone is present in higher than normal amounts to accommodate the fetus. However, if progesterone levels drop, and the progesterone ratio becomes imbalanced, it would result in miscarriage, or if one is further along, contradictions, and an early birth. If during pregnancy, our hormone levels remain the same as when the body is not pregnant, that would qualify as a hormonal imbalance. If, after a woman has given birth, her hormonal levels remain the same as when she was pregnant, that would qualify as a hormonal imbalance. We are not suppose to assume that changing hormone levels during puberty or pregnancy are out of proportion, as they are not. We are suppose to look at hormones in the context of each time frame, to see whether hormone levels are proper as they are needed.

Same thing applies to puberty. The secretion of the hormone estrogen increases during puberty, as does progesterone. When those two hormones, together with prolactin, HGH, and prostaglandins, are properly balanced, they cause the breast tissue to expand with fat deposition, development of the lobules, and alveoli, etc. After that, when the hormones have time to settle, estrogen and progesterone no longer occur at the same time, but rather work in a scheduled time frame. Neither hormone is ever completely shut off, but adjusts its amount in accordance of where the body is at in its cycle. If, after puberty ended, estrogen and progesterone would continue to secrete at the same time, as during puberty, a typical woman’s breasts would never stop growing, until she would reach the proportions of Chelsea Charms or Maxi Mounds.

If we want to look at it from another angle, because estrogen and progesterone lower down during various points of the cycle, they are never in complete balance with one another; one hormone will always be greater than the other at its respective point. This helps to produce a regular menstruation cycle, so your body is fine for it, and considers this "balanced". However, for some women, one hormone takes over more than it should. The main cases appears to be estrogen taking over, even if it is progesterone’s time to secrete and work just before one’s period is to start. That can produce an “estrogen dominance” effect, which results in things such as PMS, infertility, mood swings, endometriosis, increased risk of uterine and breast cancers, depression, weight gain, polycystic ovaries, acne, decreased sex drive, and many other unfortunate symptoms and conditions.

For me, being estrogen dominant, taking herbs to help stimulate more progesterone in my body has been helpful not only for PMS, but also for breast growth. It’s been good in balancing out my hormone levels, or recreating a “second puberty”. However, I must point out that even though progesterone has been helpful for me, it it not always the key for every woman's answer to gaining bigger breasts, hence my initial post.



Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 13 2006, 4:06 PM

Well Moonkissed, thanks for going over all of that in depth, but it seems we are merely debating over different perspectives of meaning to the same word.



mad
(no login)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 28 2006, 12:28 AM

wow i am very pissed off at that man. not only does he insist that small breasts are a disability of some sort, but he says his wife's 46DD were fabulous? im sorry not only is that TOO BIG his wife was obviously fat...who the heck wears a 46 band, she must have been like 300 lbs! i do not see how that is fabulous. this guy is what is wrong with this world and part of the reason so many of us are unhappy with our natural size. maybe if men like that didnt exist, most of us would be fine with our A cups

[admin]

Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006 at 5:17 AM wsdm (Login wsdm)
Doing a little bit of research before heading to bed. Thought to share some of my findings…

We all know that estrogen is the key to NBE. From what I am reading from various authors INCREASING ESTROGEN LEVELS OR ITS EFFECT is the key to breast growth

Mk3 on another post was kind enough to post a list of foods that enhance and inhibit NBE

Wanted to add that I found a list of foods that interfere with estrogen by deactivating it:

Broccoli
Cauliflower
Cabbage
brussel sprouts
kale
collards
rhutabaga
bok choy
watercress
arugula
mustard and mustard greens
horseradish
radishes

all these foods contain compounds called indoles. Indoles reduce the bioavailability of estrogen.


Will post more estrogen increasing methods.
wsdm




Jennelle
(Login Jenneelle)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006, 11:28 PM

Anything information you find on this will be welcome here. I look forward to anything else you can post.




Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006, 11:35 PM

Diddooooooo!!! LOL




Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006, 11:57 PM

This is a bummer though. I just planted all this stuff in my garden, And now I can't eat any of it. Lov's Lisaxxxx



wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 2:33 AM

Lisa you are so funny...

more on increasing your own levels of Estrogen...

PABA - para-aminobenzoic acid : Safely INCREASES ESTROGEN LEVELS by reducing its breakdown

PABA is a type of B vitamin
PABA can cause/help

infertile women become pregnant
increase libido
increase vaginal lubrication
accelerate puberty in girls entering puberty.
acts as coenzyme in the breakdown and utilization of proteins
change hair from gray to previous color if graying was caused by stress or nutritional deficiency

PABA is found in whole grains, wheat germ, eggs, kidney, liver, mushrooms, spinach and unsulphered blackstrap molasses

Like all tablets PABA in tablet form should be taken in moderation, but you cant overdose on PABA if gained through incorporating more of the above foods into your diet.



wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 2:51 AM

some resources to check out on PABA

http://www.vitaminevi.com/Supp/PABA.htm
http://www.swedish.org/110930.cfm
http://www.oralchelation.com/ingred/paba.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/...002518.htm





wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Estrogen and Sex
May 11 2006, 2:55 AM

According to the physiology of female sexual arousal, one will find that,

Women who have sex frequently have higher estrogen levels than women who are celibate and women who are celibate have higher estrogen levels than women who have sex sporadically,

This is not a green light for promiscuity however if some of us are in a committed relationship, more sex may help!




Anonymous
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
INCREASING ESTROGEN DOES NOT INCREASE CHANES OF BREAST GROWTH
May 11 2006, 5:37 AM

when i first started researching NBE i couldnt believe that herbs can do anything to cause breasts to grow so the first thing i did was research natural hormones and the first hormone i researched was estrogens. everything i had known about the female body and how hormones worked stem from the knowledge that estrogen controlled alot of the female charateristics.i was somewhat wrong about that as i will later explain.

now i first looked into herbs and estrogenic properties and i was surprised to learn quite a large number of herbs contain some form of isoflavin but at 1000-100000 times weaker then the estrogens that the body produces naturally. so HOW DO THESE HERB CAUSE NBE IF THEY ARE SO WEAK? so i looked into prescription hormones and estradiol (the strongst estrogen the body produces and the one most responsible for breast growth). i did some searching on older nbe forums for topics about anyone trying estradiol using it and about 3 or 4 women tried it in cream from. all had nasty and scary side effect and not 1 grew.that was a surpise. all the members had big hopes that the strogest estrogen the body natually produces wont let us down becuase it is the one hormone known to give breasts its perminant breast size. i checked out some stats of side effects from using estradiol and breast enlargements ranks about less then 20% of women who use it. and these are starts are from women who have a right to use estradiol cause they have a docs permission to use it for hormonal problems. the women on the nbe forum that used it were using the estradiol cream at high dosages, without a prescription and they were too young and they didnt need it. the group that actually has a better chance of growthing with estradiol are teens because they have high levels of growth hormone, menopausal women who use the hormone to with a doc's prescription and men.the main thing about these groups have in common are that they all start off with a fairly low or unstable levels of estrogen. now for women with normal cycles, growing with estrogen is far less likely and you have a huge chance of bad side effect and they increase their cancer risks.

herbs are strange. they dont act like estradiol but rather they compete with it for recepors and being less potent they lower the body's overall estrogen activity.thats in women with a fairly normal cycle. now its unclear weither phytoestrogens are responsible for NBE. fennel and fenugreek, are all very popular NBE herbs and they are not strong phytoestrogens but actually stimulate prolactin. it seems that most of the women with success with herbs were using at least these herbs as well as doing massages which stimulate prolactin.

sunset and steph put up a list of foods that contain phytoestrogens. i wouldnt recommend supplimenting a diet with these foods cause chances are they wouldnt work on the breast or they may work again nbe. herbs like soy, red cover, licorice root, tumeric, cumin, yucca are considered some of the strongest estrogenic herbs but they are not well known for causing breast enlargement but have been known to cause other hormonal changes. caffein also can sigificantly increase a woman's estrogen level and many women drink the coffee every day and dont get breast enlargement.


now breast size has more to do with body fat disribution and body weight rather then estrogen levels. estrogen does affect body size and the smaller you are the smaller your breasts and the more fat you have the more estrogen is in the your body the larger your breast(am i confusing you.lol hopefull you will get it once i finish). increasing just estrogen levels will cause women to store fat all over the body but more likely in the bottom half rather in the top. most women who do NBE dont want to gain weight otherwise i would recommend gaining 40 pounds and let that be that. so what affect the breast (only) is actually balance. you need the right balance of hormones not more estrogen. most women already are estrogen dominant and have very high levels of estrogen from their modern lifestyles and diet. the body will over come this by down regulating the estrogen receptors so they dont act so strongly to estrogen's activity.now with down regulated receptors, adding more estrogen usually does nothing for NBE and will make some women sick. what actually will cause NBE is to balance the estrogen dominance by adding a progesterone. progesterone opposes the effects of estrogen and its the reason why breasts swell during the second half of a menstral cycle. progesterone reactivate the estrogen receptors.this is why women who take BCP with a progestin base get larger breasts. breast growth happens more to women with already large breasts (usually they have higher estrogen levels already).

my thoughts are that NBE is best caused with galactagogues with will work with the estrogen that is already in the body and direct estrogen's activity mainly on the breast. prolactin helps estrogen to store fat in the breasts rather then all over the place. also controlling androgen levels will help as well. testosterone metabolizes into estrogen so women with low testosterone have been known to grow while using DHEA. infact one of the well documented side effect of taking DHEA is breast enlargement. Other women may need to lower their testogeserone levels saw palmetto has some limited action but there are drugs like sprironolactone that controls testosterone levels and have been know to cause breast enlargement as well. Progesterone is also a big one. the only prob is getting the right dosage to cause NBE. progesterone cream has been known to cause Breast enlargement (only temp)but its not common. most women need high dosages to grow and OTC creams are usually not strong enough. growth hormone also plays a very big roll as well. with out GH estrogen, progesterone or testosterone wont do a thing to cause nbe.it doesnt even matter if you have the perfect balance. teens have a big chance of getting growth because of their rising GH levels but after puberty GH levels drop and chances of growthing growing drop. that may be why some women who take herbs may dont experience growth. it has been found that in women supplimented estrogen, if their IGF levels went up they grew but in women with no changes in their IGF level taking estrogen they didnt grow at all.

sorry about the long post. i know for a fact ive typed this stuff up before but hopefully it saves a newbee from making the mistake of stuffing their faces with carrots, colliflouwer,and soy thinking that more estrogen means more breasts.


Dont get me wrong.
EAT YOUR VEGGIES for strong healthy bodies but dont it expecting bigger breasts.hopefully what i typed here makes some sense. Phyoestrogens are more for balancing and if they do cause nbe it would be becuase they helped women get the right balance. that is actually a long shot and most woemen who take phytoestogens like red clover or soy for nbe and had success were also taking fenugreek and fennel so its hard to say what had the most effect. my money would be on fenugreek and fennel cause among most successful NBE cases at least 1 of the 2 were present and strong phyoestrogens are not as common.



Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 9:21 AM

So SugarQ what would you suggest for NBE that could be effective?Do you follow a routine?



wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 12:50 PM

SugarQ I don’t doubt that you are right. However tweeking ones diet does not hurt, there is much more information I want to post, I haven’t talked about

Fats
phytoestrogens,
stress
depression
smoking

but there is so much time I have in one day. I will continue to post what I have researched and hope to get the kind of feedback you just gave. I appreciate it.

I believe the problem is NBE is a personal one, that has to be tailored to one’s unique physiology, I AM NOT SURE THERE IS A UNIVERSAL REMEDY… you just have to know yourself and your body.

I DO BELIEVE Estrogen is the key, it is the foundation and starting point, it’s the hormone that triggers the growth, maintenance and health of female sexual organs and enhancing ones own natural production of estrogen in a safe and healthy way is a good option.

A galactogogue is useless if there is a deficiency in estrogen. So I am of the opinion that first things first ensure you are producing optimal levels of your own estrogen.

If you recall what I wrote increasing estrogen or increasing its EFFECT will help.

If you are supotimal increase your estrogen production, if you have optimal hormone levels try and increase its effects. I have not spoken about how to increase the effects of estrogen.

Taking estrogen if your estrogen levels are normal will not help.
However if you have suboptimal levels tweeking your diet can help.

You cannot know unless you try

I agree that ingesting, injecting or rubbing one type of synthetic hormone (estradiol) does not logically make sense, estrogen comes in a set of three and they work together in synergy, synthetic hormones have been proven time and time again to potentially cause cancer.

The goal of my posting is that I believe it is necessary to create the right conditions in our bodies to help NBE triggers to work. I believe ones diet is the key.

I will post later



Tap
(Login Tap69)
EVE MEMBERS
wsdm & SugarQ
May 11 2006, 1:38 PM

Thanks girls, for such great posts... never mind that i have to read them twice to understand them. But just for us nbe plebs - let me clarify and ask 2 questions which i should already know.

Successful NBE isn't about an overload or abundance of estrogen, but an increase if needed for balance... add to that human growth hormone and increased prolactin levels and you are doing well.

Does anything else other than massage stimulate prolatin release?
In your opinions what are best ways to get HGH going again? (I'm just on L-tyrosine for that?)

(SugarQ your looooong post helped me understand why i've done well on solid doses of Dong Quai... I must have needed a balancing agent.. does this sound right?)

oooohh another question: if you stay on Saw Palmetto when your body doesn;t need it (ie: you are at a B cup and making progress) would it hinder the process???

THANKS - LOVE THIS TECHNICAL STUFF!!!





Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 5:16 PM

Hey Tap,
I'm takeing L-arginine\L-ornithine it is combined together 500mg L-A and 250mg L-O I also posted some info on this a while back in the general resorses LOL bad spelling. I take 2 a day 1 in the morning on an empty stomach and 1 a night on an empty stomach it seems to work well. I hope this help's Luv's Lisaxxxx



wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 5:47 PM

What confuses me is that estrogen cannot be made in the body without progesterone. Progesterone is a precursor to estrogen. Your body makes progesterone and progesterone is transformed to estrogen....


Progesterone is made from cholesterol which leads me to my next discussion fats. Hope to get feedback on that.

But before that cause now I am excited about all this new information, I wanted to post the following to help myself and other figure out which category they fit into, unfortunately I am leaning towards the low estrogen type or rather just low hormone type, one major factor is my body fat is extremely low and I am quite slim ... my breasts have sagging and for some time I suffered from painful intercourse and vaginal dryness as well, I cant gain weight to save my life, not unless I down truckloads of food and strength train and all I am putting on is muscle and my periods are extremely light.

However since I have started to make small changes to my diet and started the massages the vaginal dryness has started to alleviate and thus some of the pain during intercourse, well waiting on breast growth!!!

Well thanks to SugarQ I see its more complicated rather more complex than targeting one particular hormone.

Imbalances of estrogen and progesterone in female:

1. Progesterone deficiency

Symptoms: Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS), insomnia, early miscarriage, painful or lumpy breast, infertility, unexplained weight gain and anxiety.

Discussion: This is the most common hormone imbalance among women of all ages.

Solution: Estrogen free diet, discontinue birth control pill and use natural progesterone cream to increase the progesterone level.


2. Estrogen deficiency

Symptoms: night sweats, mood swings, depression, hot flashes, sagging breast, vaginal dryness, osteoporosis, fibrocystic lumps, night sweats, painful intercourse and memory problem.

Discussion: This hormone imbalance is most common in menopausal women; especially with petite and/or slim women.

Solution: Progesterone is a biochemical precursor to estrogen. Progesterone cream alone is sufficient to restore estrogen balance and relief of many of the symptoms. If after 3 months of progesterone cream, proper diet, nutritional supplementation of magnesium and B6 do not relive the symptoms, then low-dose natural estrogen may be considered. 2.5 mg of natural tri-estrogen cream ( 10% estrone, 10% estradiol and 80% estriol) provides the equivalent action of 0.625 conjugated estrogen such as Premarin. Herbs like black cohash have weak estrogenic effect. Isoflavone extracts and cruciferous vegetables extracts such as DIM may be considered as well.

3. Excessive estrogen:

Symptoms: bloating, rapid weight gain, heavy bleeding, migraine headache, foggy thinking, insomnia, red flush on face and breast tenderness during the first 2 weeks of menstrual cycle.

Discussion: This often comes about from excessive estrogen intake as part of a hormone replacement therapy program.

Solution: Discontinue estrogen replacement therapy that uses estrogen alone.

4. Excessive androgens (male hormones):

Symptoms: Acne, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), excessive hair on face and arm, thinning hair on the head, infertility and mid-cycle pain.

Discussion: Excessive sugar and simple carbohydrates in the diet often cause this. Excessive sugar stimulates androgen receptors on the outside of the ovary. Androgens also block the release of eggs from the follicle, causing polycystic ovary disease.

Solution: Dietary adjustment to reduce sugar and grains and proper exercise are important. Natural progesterone cream could be used to maintain hormonal balance and discontinued when symptoms are resolved. If progesterone levels rise each month during the leuteal phase of the cycle, a normal synchronal pattern of estrogen and progesterone is maintained and excessive androgen seldom occurs.

5. Estrogen dominance:

Symptoms: Combination of absolute progesterone deficiency and excess estrogen, resulting in a relative increase in estrogen in comparison to progesterone.

Common symptoms include:

� Acceleration of the aging process
� Breast tenderness
� Depression
� Fatigue
� Foggy thinking
� Headaches
� Hypoglycemia
� Memory Loss
� Osteoporosis
� PMS
� Pre-menopausal bone loss
� Thyroid dysfunction
� Uterine cancer and fibroids
� Water retention
� Fat gain around abdomen, hips and thighs

Discussion: This is the result of low estrogen but even lower progesterone. Up to 50% of western women, especially those who are obese between the ages of 40 and 50 suffer from estrogen dominance.

Solution: Reduce stress, sugar and coffee from diet. Adrenal function is normally compromised in a person with estrogen dominance. Normalization of the adrenal function should be considered first, as well as relief of stressors. Follow a natural whole food diet, application of stress reduction techniques and natural progesterone cream in physiological doses (20 mg a day).

Source: http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_fo...terone.cfm




SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 7:05 PM

i do believe diet is important but controling estogen levels with diet is very tricky and probably is more likely to cause unwanted side effects before it would ever cause nbe. the best diet plan ive seen is outlined in the f2f book. it makes total sense but weither it works remains to be seen. the problem with controlling estrogen levels with diet is that adding or lowering estrogen can cause or prevent growth. its very hard what will happen to different women.

on 1 nbe forum some women claim that they used high dosages of licorice root and red clover and grew while others did the same but didnt get growth until they dropped the strong phytoestrogens. there is a forum (the old NBE forum) where women mainly focused on high dosages of strong phyestrogens and the success cases havent been nearily as well as this forum. this forum has been up and running for a much shorter time then the beboard and there are far more successful cases here. the main thing is that women here dont focus on strong phytoestrogens. fenugugreek and fennel are considered estrogen but really they are not . plus women here focused more on massages a well which the old beboard forum did not. now success cases are still low on this forum but when you compare the b/a pictures that show improvment we got close to 8 or so women on this forum and only 1 on the old beboard forum. and the one woman on the beboard that did show improvment had a routine closer to what women here have.

now in deficient women more estrogen still doesnt mean bigger breasts. like is said with the prescription drug estradiol the women who do have a right to use it are estrogen deficient but breast growth cases are so low. with phytoestrogens it may help some women who are deficient but that hasnt been shown to be the case yet. stats say that most women are not estrogen deficient but rather in the normal to dominant range. even if you do have small breasts you might have normal or workable levels of estrogen already. the best way to do NBE is to just use the estrogen you got already and fiddle around with everything else. you can also add strong phyoestrogens like red clover and licorice root if you want but i wouldn't play with a diet that is high in phytoestrogens. its better to work with naturally low levels of estrogen then to try to ramp it up with herbs and possiblity prevent anything at all from happening. women can still grow with low levels of estrogen if everything else is looking good but it may just take a bit longer.

the only time estrogen causes sigificant amount of breast growth is during puberty. after that women taking estrogen will report, at most, a cup if they are lucky. most women get pains,maybe some swelling and thats it. growth with estrogen during puberty takes 3+ years but women can achieve just about any cup size. after puberty breasts will grow some when taking estrogen but eventually that stops, no matter how much you take or how long you take it for. now breast still can grow alot after puberty. during pregnancy breasts grow but only temerarily becasue of progesterone and not estrogen. the only known perminant way breast growth outside of NBE is gaining weight and storing fat (porportionatly) all over the body. in typical nbe cases involving herbs, women grow a cup or more in less then 8 months and only grow in the breast area. estrogen plays a small roll in that happening.

there are other ways to stimulate prolactin. breast pumps are a great way to stimulate estrogen levels. domperidone and reglan are prescription drugs that are known to induce lactation in men and women and guess what a common side effect is... (breast enlargment). herbs like fenugreek, fennel, goats rue,alfalfa, blessed thistle, borage, blue verbena, milk thistle stimulate prolactin and in the wonderup pill there are strong galactagogues and th pill incorperates more galactagogues at higher dosages then it does phyoestrogens.

im all for balance and eating healthy and even if a woman goes to a store and eats lots veggies and herbs with isoflavons there is very little chance that would cause breast enlargment.i dont want women to think that phyoestrogens are the same as natural estrogen. they dont work the same they dont do the same things. even natural estrogens like estradiol cant be relied upon to cause breast enlargement. so the only way i would recommend eating veggies would be for overall good health. not estrogen balance cause it would be hard to say how it will shift a womans body chemistry. if women wants to try their luck with soy licorice root, tumeric red clover then fine. its is worth a shot but still becareful. work without strong phytoestrogens first then add them in later. just dont overload with a diet full of phytoestrogens cause its a waste of time.





SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 7:26 PM

thanks for getting the list of symtoms for hormonal levels. that can be a great way to see where you are so you dont start off blindly guessing what you need . i would also recommend doing saliva tests if that is an afortable option as well. i though that i was estrogen deficient but later on i found out with lab tests im a estrogen dominant and deficient in progesterone. i have some interesting studies that relate hormon levels to breast size i want to share with you all. they are posted on the new beboard forum under medical related research. they help to clarify the whole balance thing s bit better and hows what balances are needed for breast size changes.

http://beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=1141150957

http://beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=1070212047

http://beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=1070495103

its interesting to see how all the hormones are realated. some are precursors to others and some affect the inversly or directly the levels of others. all the hormones are related to each other in some way which hammers home the idea of balance. http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/steroid...athway.htm. cortisol even can somehow affect breast size if its deficient. so things do get complicated very fast. but a typical NBE routine with herbs should be good enough for many women. if not then we got a big prob tying to figure out whats out of whack.



wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 12 2006, 11:53 PM

Thanks for the info SugarQ will take some time to read it through. Fortunate for me I am willing to and want to gain weight. I have an excellent frame and I am 125 pounds which is the minimum weight I can be for my height to be considered normal and healthy. I am willing to go up to 150 pounds though, not a big fan of being slim, I honestly think it is healthier and sexier to have a bit of weight (and curves). Hopefully I can have the right regimen together so my weight gain can primarily go to my breasts.



Anonymous
(Login rkai93)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 13 2006, 1:21 AM

so...i'm confused...In reading all the symptoms of imbalances...it strikes me that i am fairly balanced.....not deficient or dominant in anything

what's a balanced girl to do for NBE? i'm 35, 5'3" and about 107-110 lbs. breast size ranges from 32C, to 34C




Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
wsdm
May 13 2006, 4:58 PM

WOW it sounds like we have the same problem wsdm same symptoms. I can eat and eat and not gain a pound. This is very interesting thanks so much for sharing. Sounds like you and hoEB make a good team you both are very intellegent and full of good info. take care Lisaxxxx



Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
April 24 2007, 11:16 PM

This makes a lot of sense to me. Its kind of a hard read though!

It sounds like SugarQ is saying that balance and galactologues work for NBE, NOT just phytoestrogens.

Does that sound right?



Linz
(no login)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
April 25 2007, 7:13 AM

Good work snowflake!!

So is there any point to phytoestrogens?

Certainly explains why wonderup seems to be successful

[admin]

estrogen dominance needed for results?
January 17 2005 at 10:59 AM Roxane (no login)
I was doing a little research and found that during puberty, girls are estrogen dominant for 2 years during the time they are developing breasts. After that they start to produce progestrone which balances them out and they start to ovulate. It is my understanding that when using breast enlargement pills our body mimics puberty as far as the growth of breast tissue. Therefore, if I am using a progestrone cream, am I defeating the purpose of these pills because I am getting too much progestrone to have the growth?

Does anyone know?

Thanks,
Roxane



Mary
(no login)
Re: estrogen dominance needed for results?
January 20 2005, 8:16 PM

No I don't think so, because you only use the progesterone cream during the second half of your cycle, don't you? Isn't that how it works? So you only get the progesterone during that time of the month when you're supposed to have progesterone



caroline
(no login)
Re: estrogen dominance needed for results?
May 17 2005, 10:49 AM

I have been reading a book called ‘Apples & Pears’ which says that after puberty oestrogen dominant women tend to put weight on round their bottom half (Pear). That is where women are supposed to store fat to protect them from diseases and apparently better for their babies when they are pregnant (child bearing hips).

Women who put weight on their tummies and breasts after puberty are apple shape. They have more male hormones (only slightly more, not enough to make them a man obviously).

It is better to be pear shaped health wise but unfortunately maybe not for your breasts and you may have fatter legs. With all the images in the media of surgically enhanced beautiful women it’s hard to love your body.

I too am looking for a wonder pill. Does anyone know what pills transsexuals use to grow breast and if they would only work on men because they wouldn’t produce progesterone to balance out the oestrogen, or am I on the wrong tracks completely?

Despite house wife

Caroline



lisa
(no login)
oestrogen or progesterone
May 17 2005, 12:17 PM

Does anyone know if it is oestrogen or progesterone that is needed to make your breasts grow.



Yvette
(no login)
Transexuals
May 17 2005, 12:29 PM

The way that transexuals grow breasts does not work on women. Unfortunately I can't remember the exact reason why. I wish I could. I'm sure that someone visiting this site will provide a full explanation sooner or later, but I remember reading that for women it does not work. It would be dangerous anyway and you would not get it prescribed by a doctor for that purpose. Your chances of getting a doctor to give you real estrogen to try and grow breasts are zero, even if it actually worked.



Trudie
(no login)
Transexuals
May 18 2005, 02:56 PM

I don't think being estrogen dominant in itself is going to make breasts grow (not for women anyway).

Don't forget other hormones are relavant, not just estrogen and progesterone, but growth hormone for example.

[admin]

my critical question about herbal stuff
May 11 2006 at 9:54 PM lizy (Login slraep)
HOW HOW HOW the heck can these herbs specialize in BREAST enlargement and not enlarge the rest of our bodies. I mean, REALLY???
What is key to the process
Thanx for replies!




SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: my critical question about herbal stuff
May 11 2006, 10:34 PM

i explained it in the "estrogen key to breast growth".
herbs like fenugreek and fennel are galactagogues and in non lactating women it helps to get estrogen (that is already naturally present in the body) to store fat in the breast. now there are herbs like saw palmetto which help to lower testosterone levels as well. many different herbs will actually cause hormonal changes. some of estrogenic properties(where is blockes estrogen respeptors but have a mild estrogenic activity, some herbs block progesterone, some block testosterone, some mimic progesterone, but the biggest one would be the ones that stimulate prolactin. they seem to do the best when it comes to NBE.

In non lactating women galactagogues will help enlarge be breast just enough but not cause milk production (but in rare cases some non lactating women do produce some milk cause they eithe have low progesterone levels or they are extra sensitive to prolactin.).


there are also oil like borage and EPO that contain GLA helps to balance of estrogen and testosterone levels.




SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
more clarification
May 11 2006, 10:58 PM


we know that lactating mothers use galactagogues to increase milk supply so in non lacating females it should do the same. prescription drugs like domperidone and reglan are also known to stimulate prolactin levels and a known side effect is breast enlargement in non lactating men and women. now we can assume that galactagogues herbs will also increase prolactin levels cause increased milk production is directly related to increasing prolactin levels. now usually prolactin induced breast enlargement it temp but there are ways to guess or show how it could cause perminant growth like it has in many cases.

1) is to relate growth with herbs to how the brava device works. the brava is a device that causes breast enlargement buy forming anf sustaining a vaccum around the breast and causing the breast to stretch because of the tension. the developers of this device believe that the body will try to over come the tension by growing new skin and hopfully adipose tissue (which give breasts its perminant size). now with herbs sometimes it causes the breast to swell which is another form of tension, over time if you sustain the tension long enough growth will become perminant.

2) you can achieve the same tension from enlarging breast glands with progesterone (ex. BCP). but gland are trickier cause glands will eventually shrink back and they can displace fat that is already in the breast so some women can shrink back to a saggier,smaller cupsize. now if the tension that is causes by the enlarged gland last long enough and the gland shrink back at a slow slow enough rate to allow the herbs to store fat in the breast you can get perminant growth that way.

these are just some ideas. they are not proven to be what happens in successful breast enlargement cases. these ideas are all pieced together by what we know happens naturally to the breast and our bodies. i dont know for sure how or why it happens and i personally dont care as long as it works and so far women on this forum and the beboard have been experiencing something and thats good enough for me.



Anonymous
(no login)
Re: my critical question about herbal stuff
May 14 2006, 2:26 AM

wow i see!.. THANX MUCHAS!! u gals know ur stuff i'll say!!

[admin]

Progesterone the key
December 12 2006 at 9:22 PM bonnette (Login bonnette)
hello Waxingmoon

i was intrigued by your progress and being based on progesteroncream only. I would like to know how you figured it out that progesterone was the key. i have done these online tests and different times i get different results. only sure thing is excess androgens and saw palmetto has worked for that.i am also very very small, the comment about your ribs sounded familiar

i am on herbs now since the end of august with no results so far. have started to feel more sensations though lately but no growth. i just don't know what to do cos there seem way too many options to try and i have no idea which one could be right. But i also rememeber it being mentioned that with progesteron cream no permanent growth can be achieved thus i was interesting how's it going with you? it's like girls here on this board trying to figure out which one is more important estrogen or progesteron or both. since NBE is not officially scientific yet there is no theories for us only personal experiences.

i have one intresting memory from prebuberty which might not be linked in anyway but still. i remember watching TV with some relatives and family in some gathering and there were some women singing one being totally flat. and at the age of around ten (i started periods at 13) i knew i will be like that. this memory has haunted me til now, no idea why. my mum is small as well but i would be happy to be her size.

the breast issues come to my mind from time to time and since i'm into developing a new relationship i feel so insecure and scared. i know it's not the breasts that matter but wouldn't it be nice if we had some...

anyway sorry i made it so long but i suppose i thought you would understand me.

wish you good growing and to hear about it soon

Bonnette



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 13 2006, 1:10 PM

Hi, Bonnette,
The progesterone idea was brought to my attention through NBE research, but I started using it because I believed I was Estrogen dominant. The online quizes confirmed what I read in the book by Dr. John Lee, 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause'.

I suspected progesterone was good for NBE after reading the Bountiful Breast site, but I wasn't comfortable with the idea of bovine ovary or the price. Since you can buy natural progesterone cream over-the-counter, I decided to give it a shot.

The biggest result was in the first cycle of use. I grew an inch, but that doesn't tell you just how much my breast changed. Before progesterone, I had virtually no breast tissue, just nipple and some very lumpy tissue. Within weeks my breasts were rounder, projected our more and were very soft. There was a lot of swelling that first cycle. I actually measured 2 inches larger until my period. Dr. Lee explains that when you first use progesterone there is an intensification of estrogen. All the receptors turn on, so I had a lot of fluid gain. However, I know the inch that remained is there to stay. It has been three cycles now and that inch never goes away.

I think the results were so sudden and the growth is continueing because I supplied what my body had been missing all these years. I am very health conscious. I had already been using protein drinks and vitamins before trying the progesterone. My body was primed to build the hormones it needed and I provided the missing link.

Will it work for anyone else? Of course that depends. I resisted posting my program until I felt certain that my growth was permanent and still increasing. If you are progesterone deficient (estrogen dominant) then you don't have the basic building blocks for NBE. Progesterone is used by the body to create other hormones. A person who is progesterone deficient might very well score high on many of the hormone quizes. I know I did. Using natural progesterone cream could aid NBE greatly. But there is nothing magic about it. It is the right solution for the right problem.

I also believe natural progesterone cream is extremely safe. If you try it, use USP grade progesterone. This means it is 'bio-identical' to human progesterone. Use it on days 12 - 28 of your cycle. Put the cream on thin skinned areas that don't have a lot of body fat (inside of arms, tops of thighs, back of neck, tops of feet). Dr. Lee's book really outlines the amount and other dosages for other problems. If you have PMS, estrogen dominance, or thyroid deficiency your symptoms may respond positively. And your breasts may grow! If in several cycles you notice no changes for the better, then you can stop and no harm is done.

I wish you well if you want to try this. If you really do think you have estrogen dominance, then cut out the herbs. Adding more estrogen in, even phytoestrogen, is going the wrong way. I am using the herb Maca which supports progesterone production and I have just started using Vitex angus castus for the same reason. I use reasonable amounts as stated on the packages. Too much progesterone shuts down the receptors and you lose the benefits. Be sure to increase your protein by using whey protein. This form of protein is very fast in absorption. Use 40 - 60 grams per day (two to three drinks). You will need this to make use of the progesterone. Without it your body has nothing to build with.

Let me know how you are doing. I would be eager to see if someone else has the success I have had with progesterone. I think I may have started as one of the smallest (36aaaa?), so even with my gains I bet I am still smaller than most who begin NBE. I will have to gain a total of 4 inches just to reach 36A size. But let me tell you - I appreciate every molecule. I still can't believe I have gained as much as I have. I hope you have as much fun with this as I have.

Keep me posted,
waxingmoon



Anonymous
(Login Corrie73)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 13 2006, 5:38 PM

Wow Waxingmoon! That is really incredible. Congratulations! You must be thrilled with your growth.

Can I ask you, what symptoms did you have that let you know that you were estrogen dominant? I am always very confused by the online hormone tests, because I end up checking boxes in all the categories. So I guess I am completely unbalanced!

I'd be interested in what your primary symptoms of estrogen dominance were.

Good luck to all!



bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 13 2006, 6:13 PM

thank you Waxingmoon for the nice answer

i have been wondering the same about loading myself with the phytoestrogens when in fact according to the online tests i should add progesteron. but i'm just not very convinced with those tests either. my overall health seemed to get better while on herbs: more regular/shorter cycle, no PMS (that's strange) but also heavier bleeding on first days and terrible stomachaches. Which leads me to think wheter i'm in lack of progesteron or not.

i totally agree with you with every breastmolecule being a blessing and i can only imagine how happy i would be with a nice little A cup (im aaa something as well).

i would definately give the progesteron a try i think after this cycle if nothing happens (growth i mean, cos i have had clear sensations this cycle from the beginning). I'm using Vitex already to balance hormones although have no idea what to balance here.

How about the sensations? did you get any and what part of the cycle?

And did you put on weight with the proteindrinks? i have tried to eat as much proteins as possible but have also noticed some weightgain anywhere but breasts.

Where can one buy progesteron cream, in pharmacy? do i have to explain why i need it, obviously i don't want to tell the reason.

Sorry about so many questions.

i wish you a good growing and i will let you know how it goes with me.
keep in touch!

Bonnette



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 14 2006, 2:01 PM

I don't mind the questions at all. I hope I can help you.

Corrie,
Here is a list of symptoms I had that reflect estrogen dominance (sorry, it's a long one):

allergies, breast tenderness, cold hands & feet and symptoms of thyoid dysfunction, depression with anxiety, dry eyes, fat gain around abs, hips and thighs, fatigue, fibrocystic breasts, foggy thinking, hair loss, headaches, irregular periods, irritability, insomnia, memory loss, mood swings, PMS, sluggish metabolism, water retension.

There are other symptoms as well that I did not have:

auto-immune disorder, breast cancer, cervical dysplasia, copper excess, gallbladder disease, hypoglycemia, increased blood clotting, infertility (but I never tried to get pregnant), osteoporosis, polycystic ovaries, uterine fibroids.

Several of these symptoms may also show up on other hormone balance quizes. I know I get high marks on many others. Here is why I think it all hinges on Estrogen Dominance (or deficient progesterone):

Progesterone is used to create many other hormones (androstenedione, testosterone, estrogen, cortisol and aldosterone). If you don't create adequate amounts of progesterone you begin to have multiple system problems and symptoms. My resource for understanding all this is Dr. John Lee. He coined the term Estrogen Dominance. His books explain this rather confusing issue. The one I am studying is 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause', and no matter what your age, I suggest it. The symptoms of estrogen/progesterone imbalance can start 20 or 30 years before menopause. I know I have had many of my symptoms since I was a teenager.

Natural Progesterone cream is a god-send. In the first week I used it many of my symptoms vanished. That alone convinced me I was on the right track. I am not out of it yet, but I am getting there. Sorry to be so long winded, but it is a complicated issue.

Bonnette,

You should be able to find progesterone cream sitting on the shelf. There are several brands. Make sure you get one that has USP progesterone in the ingredients. That means it is bio-identical to what your body makes. I noticed in your program you take wild yam. You may get some phytoestrogens from wild yam, but your body simply cannot make progesterone from it. They get progesterone from wild yam in the lab only. Vitex is the only herb I know that for sure increases your progesterone. If you have to ask some pharmacist for the progesterone cream, you can always say it is for PMS, which it does a great job for.

I don't think the whey protein has caused me any weight gain, but my weight has fluctuated up and down since starting the progesterone. It is likely because my body was so progesterone deficient that it is waking up estrogen receptors and my body is packing on extra fat. Only about 5 pounds, which I am certain in the next few months will melt away as my progesterone levels stabilize.

As far as sensations, they come and go. I still have luteal swelling due to the excess estrogen reaction of my body. This is normal in the first few months of progesterone use. Last cycle I could barely touch my breasts they were so tender. Today they are just hanging around silent. They usually get fuzzy feeling after I massage them.

Sorry again for the 'novel'. They did a study that said women talk about 3 times as much as men. I figure with my estrogen dominance I must talk about 3 times as much as most women... lol

waxingmoon



bonnette
(no login)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 14 2006, 6:16 PM

thank you waxingmoon once again

i let you know how it goes when i start

Bonnette



bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 12:54 PM

one more question.

did or didn't you try the herbs first?

i'm still wondering what to do since i get quite strong sensations once in a while but no growth. tried to take some pics today and it's extremely depressing. i feel like i stopped developing in very early stage and that's it.


All the best

Bonnette



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 1:34 PM

No, I didn't try any herbs. Once I discovered the estrogen dominance I was very concerned about any increases to estrogen, especially when I had such a strong positive reaction to progesterone. You may very well be a good candidate for progesterone use since the herbs have not affected you. Remember, it may take more than one cycle before you notice anything with progesterone.

I hope this can help you with your growth. Remember not to start until day 12 of your cycle. This will give your ovaries a chance to ovulate and if they do, they will then create progesterone for you and your use of the cream will be enhanced.

Best of luck,
waxingmoon



bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 1:38 PM

Thank you again

what is the price of progesteron-cream? i have checked it in internet and it seems to be quite costly.

i might go and check it in herbstore today.

Bonnette




bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 2:24 PM

ok, i was to the pharmacy and herbstore and it seems here in Italy it's only with prescription . i'm afraid it's the same in my homecountry in northern europa.

Are you in Europa Waxingmoon?

sad Bonnette



Anonymous
(Login anna-a)
To Bonnette
December 15 2006, 2:35 PM

Hey Bonnette,

Where are you from? I'm from Belgium

Greets,

Anna



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 2:40 PM

Hey Bonnette,

I found this site with the cream I use:

http://www.sportsnetrition.com/now_proge..._page.html

I am in the US. I get mine from a local store, but I may start ordering off the internet. That price was lower than I pay.

Hope this helps,
waxingmoon



bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 5:44 PM

Anna-a

i'm studying in italy at the moment but im from finland.

Could it be that progesteron cream is only with prescription everywhere in Europa? And thus even shipping from US could be complicated? Has anyone had this issue?

Bonnette



Vicky A
(Login VickyA)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 5:58 PM

In the UK progesterone cream is prescription only.




michelle choi
(Login chelle_choi)
SENIOR MEMBER
hi waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 9:12 PM

Just wanted to see how it's going with the Maca, I think I read on another post that you started taking it, just wondering if you think that's helping with the progesterone cream for you?? I hope you see more results soon. Take care.

Michelle



Breastfest
(Login Breastfest)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 10:48 PM

Waxingmoon-

You have been such an encouragement to me! I've always called myself an A- because I never even developed breast buds and only saw where my breasts were 'supposed' to be after two pregnancies and breastfeeding (both times I only ended up being barely above an A). I started my program on Nov 26 but because of reading yours and doing more research, I've totally revamped it. I just wasn't feeling totally right about all of that estrogen and now I know why. I don't think I needed it. I think I've been estrogen dominant my whole life but have learned to deal with the symptoms and mask it. I have changed to taking just Vitex x2 twice daily. Already I feel a little better. I am thinking of doing a cleanse, too, to get rid of excess estrogen and help myself out a bit. Thius week I am going to the health food store to investigate cream. I have always fought being underweight, ever found any link between that and estrogen dominance?

Thanks again! Happy glowing and growing!



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 15 2006, 11:12 PM

Hi Michelle,
I take the maca every morning by mixing a scoop in with my protein powder. I have no inkling whether it is working or not. When I run out of this 1 lb bag I may stop for a cycle and see if there is any negative results.

Breastfest,
There may very well be a link between your low weight and estrogen dominance. Too much estrogen can depress your thyroid function due to estrogen encouraging thyroid binding hormone production. This would make a person test normal on a thyroid test, but actually suffer as if they had low thyroid output. Low thyroid output (hypothyroidism) often makes a person gain weight, but a lesser known effect is that it can make a person have low body weight. It may especially affect a person's ability to gain muscle mass. This may result in a person looking thin but actually having a rather high body fat amount. (a 'fat' thin person). I have been that 'fat' thin person and it took a whole lot of nutrition and a whole lot of weight training to correct this.

I hope everyone can benefit from my experiences.

waxingmoon



Breastfest
(Login Breastfest)
You're an angel...
December 16 2006, 1:04 AM

Waxingmoon,

If I could, I would hug you!! You have been able to tell me in one post what doctors, coaches, personal trainers and nutritionists haven't been able to tell me for years. I would work out and work out but worked 10X's harder than anyone else to put on just a little bit of muscle. I had a high TSH (sign of hypothyroidism) about 2 years ago but my doctor passed it off as a fluke saying I didn't exhibit any of the 'classic' signs of the disorder. He retested me and I came back normal, but only barely. Most people have blown me off saying, "What are you complaining about being skinny for, I'd love to be in your shoes." Or else accusations of eating disorders are generally thrown around, to my dismay. Thank you, thank you, thank you, for giving me a little ammo and a LOT OF HOPE!!

Breastfest



bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 16 2006, 8:16 AM

i'm getting even more confused now ...lol

i can't tell what symphtoms i have. Before NBE i had long and irregular cycle after my breakup, now of herbs it's regular but extremely heavy bleeding (obviously estrogent dominant which makes sense popping all these phytoestrogens). But then again there is no PMS as such only bad period cramps (but this is not concidered PMS).
I have started to put on weight on belly and hips (also due to phytoestrogens probably). i did notice few years ago that my bodytemeprature was extremely low like 35 C and i was feeling like i had a fever. i was on Wondrup at that time but didn't know it could have anything to do with it. what i was thinking, not sure, that maybe i was low on both estrogen and progesteron before NBE and now i'm higher on estrogen but still low on progesteron. does the use of progesteroncream help out also the lack of other hormones since i read somewhere it's used to produce other hormones? does using progesteroncream and taking Agnus Castus have a same effect cos i seems impossible to get progesteroncream in Europa?

i absolutley apologise to put everything here in my writing but maybe somebody can comment it or give the clue why i havent grown.

Thanks,
Bonnette



cutevelvet
(Login cutevelvet)
in uk
December 16 2006, 11:37 AM

http://www.biovea.net/product_detail.asp?PID=1266&CID=0&POS=4&PageNo=&Total=5

here is a link of how to purchase the cream online. what i wanted to ask is that for those who are unsure about whether they are progesterone deficient or not can they use pills like wonder up and massage breasts with progesterone cream or will that stall the growth? any advice appreciated.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 16 2006, 1:45 PM

Breastfest,
Glad I could help you. It took me years to find the connection between thinness and hypothyroidism. It has only been with my study of progesterone that I now understand why a person with hypothyroid symptoms might test normal on thyroid tests.

Bonnette,
I think that the Vitex will help with increasing progesterone. If you cut down on how much phytoestrogen you take in, as well as reduce the xenoestrogens (artificial estrogens) you get from pesticides, solvents, plastics, perfumed soaps... (the list goes on and on) you will be able to create balance. I am also using the herb maca which is thought to help your body produce whatever hormones it needs. It does not have as much research as Vitex. I cannot tell how much it is helping me, but supposedly it is.

Cutevelvet,
Phytoestrogens are supposed to take up space on estrogen receptors and produce a milder estrogen effect. If you are highly estrogen dominant, even this will be a problem if you do not raise your progesterone. Dr. Lee advises placing progesterone on skin areas that have low fat and high circulation. He does however talk about using progestrone cream on the breast for fibrocystic breasts, so it is not going to harm you to use it there. However, you won't bring progesterone into circulation as fast. I would also advise you not to use the cream on the same skin area two days in a row. This would reduce absorption and might raise a risk of allergic reaction. Every other day or every three days would be better with other body areas used in between.

waxingmoon



Anna
(Login anna-a)
To Waxingmoon
December 16 2006, 4:19 PM

Hey Waxingmoon,

I'm also estrogen dominant and recognize myself in all of the symptoms you described. I'm going to give vitex and wild yam cream a try (as progesterone cream is so hard to find in Europe). Do you know if wild yam cream should also only be used during the second half of your cycle or can you use it all the time?

Thanks,

Anna



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 16 2006, 5:09 PM

Hi Waxingmoon, I want to say your program is very well thought out and provides a really good insight and empyrical evidence to the theory, thanx much for contributing this information.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: to Waxingmoon
December 17 2006, 2:02 AM

Hi Anna,
You will probably do well with the Vitex. I doubt the wild yam will benefit you by increasing progesterone. They do create progesterone out of wild yam, but only in the lab. We cannot take the molecule from wild yam and turn it into progesterone in our bodies. Wild yam when taken acts as a phytoestrogen, so it may have some benefits, but it will not increase progesterone.

Thanks Moon, I have spent a lot of time researching progesterone and trying to create a plan that had no negative health effects for myself. So far so good. I am happy to share my experiences so that others can benefit from what I have learned.

waxingmoon