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Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 3 2008 at 12:47 AM Alley  (no login)
Hi.

Took the test and found out I am estrogen dominant. Am looking for help to find out what is a good herbal program for this body type.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 3 2008, 9:43 PM

Hi Alley,

As I see it since there is more than one type of estrogen dominance, there is a rather complex answer to this issue. Depending on the reason for the estrogen dominance and the intensity of the symptoms one program might work better than another. Here is how I see it:

1. Estrogen Dominance caused by normal estrogen paired with lower than normal progesterone. Hormonal need: increase progesterone to balance estrogen. NBE strategy: correct hormonal imbalance with use of vitex or progesterone cream first then try galactogogue based NBE.

2. Estrogen Dominance caused by higher than normal estrogen paired with a normal amount of progesterone. Hormonal need: lower estrogen levels. NBE strategy: use very low dose phytoestrogens (crushed flaxseed) to block estrogen receptors from more potent estrogens and possibly support progesterone with vitex or progesterone cream until symptoms abate. NBE that focuses on massage, suction or hypnosis may work better for this category.

3. Estrogen Dominance caused by low estrogen paired with even lower progesterone. Hormonal need: raise progesterone levels first then slowly bring up estrogen levels. NBE strategy: focus on increasing progesterone through vitex and progesterone cream until all symptoms abate. Continue support of progesterone and bring in galactogogues or low dose phytoestrogens (fennel, maca) to support estrogen.

________________________________________________________________

Then of course there are all the mixes of Estrogen Dominance plus excess androgens, Estrogen Dominance plus PCOS, Estrogen Dominance plus ????? - so those kinds of remedies are going to need a different focus.

The basic idea in my opinion is to clear up the hormone imbalance first then attempt NBE.

Hope this has been some help,
waxingmoon



Alley
(no login)
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 4 2008, 1:37 AM

Thanks Waxingmoon.

All starting to make some sort of sense. To get a true indication I am going to see my Doctor and find out exactly what my levels are. That way I can find out where and what I need to start with.



CousinRose
(no login)
Hope this helps a little
July 4 2008, 7:33 PM

I have to admit I know very little of this but I read an article about hormonal imbalance and phytoestrogens which stated that phytoestrogens are also good for those who are estrogen dominant.

"Phytoestrogens are part of the phytohormone class which means they structurally resemble the body’s native estrogen. Their chemical structure is such that it allows them to weakly bind to an estrogen receptor, potentially blocking excess estrogen, or, when estrogen is low, quieting the system’s need for estrogen. But they are not estrogen."

This is the website
http://www.womentowomen.com/womenshealth...erapy.aspx?



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 5 2008, 12:31 AM

Hi CousinRose,
That's some interesting information, thanks for posting the link.

As I understand it, phytoestrogen effect on the body is very dose dependent and also very much dependent on the hormonal state of the woman.

Phytoestrogens also come in different potency. Some are much less estrogenic than our body's own estrogen (fennel for example) and some are more potent/estrogenic than what our body produces (red clover for example).

Here are a couple of ways a woman might react with an estrogen increase to phytoestrogens:

Example 1 - if a woman is not producing a lot of estrogen herself, she would probably have a lot of 'vacant' estrogen receptors. Any phytoestrogen used no matter how potent or low potency would raise total body estrogen. Whatever fills up those empty receptors will give her a total greater than what she had.

Example 2 - if a woman is producing a normal amount of estrogen and begins to use a phytoestrogen that is highly potent. Her total body estrogen might increase if the phytoestrogen replaces a spot on the estrogen receptor that was normally occupied by her own lower dose body estrogen.


Now here are a few examples of how a phytoestrogen might lower total body estrogen:

Example 3: - if a woman with normal estrogen begins to take large amounts of a low potency phytoestrogen. She might 'swamp' her estrogen receptors with the phytoestrogen and block her own body's more potent estrogen. (we call this stalling in NBE)

Example 4: - if a woman who is estrogen dominant chooses very low dose phytoestrogens (lignans, like crushed flaxseed) she can fill up her estrogen receptors with the low potency estrogen and block any higher potency estrogen.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, it is confusing, which is why those who do a lot of research and reading generally get better results.

Also, remember - the idea of NBE is to find out what your body responds to and use the proper amount of it. The unfortunate general consensus that more is better is hardly an appropriate mind set. More can lead to serious unwanted side effects and also can lead to stalling.

I hope this thread can be a useful topic to those who are suffering estrogen dominance and having trouble with NBE.

waxingmoon




Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 6 2008, 11:26 AM

Hey Waxingmoon,

Sorry to be a pain but I really want to get NBE right this time around. I'm number 3 in the first post, low estrogen and low progesterone. In another thread about progesterone (I don't think I mentioned that I was this body type), you wrote:

"There is nothing about [Vitex] method of action that would be reduced when other herbs are used unless those other herbs promote the building of prolactin (that would be the galactogogues - which fenugreek is one of them). You could use fennel or maca with vitex."

In this thread, you suggest taking galactogugues? Is this because of that specific body type? If so, would it be ok for me to take Wonderup when I've taken Vitex for 3 months?



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 6 2008, 12:02 PM

Hi Roseability,
I mention taking the galactogogue for those who are trying to find a method of NBE that does not increase their estrogen level.

Mind you, this is my conclusion because I have not found research showing that galactogogues (fenugreek and goat's rue) listed as strong phytoestrogens.

In the case of Fenugreek, it is listed as a steroidal saponin - meaning it is a precursor to hormones in the body, not a direct substitute for estrogen (which is what phytoestrogens are). This means that although our body could build estrogen from it, it would not cause the body to increase estrogen beyond its normal limits (assuming of course the body is creating estrogen at normal limits - I'm just saying that Fenugreek would not make the body do something more than it would already do).

Fenugreek and Goat's rue both work by increasing prolactin which is why they would not be a good mix with vitex, which lowers prolactin.

Wonderup contains Fenugreek - so if you want to take it, taking vitex at the same time will lower the effect of the Wonderup. You could do vitex first for several months and when you have reduced your symptoms of estrogen dominance then switch to the Wonderup.

Some women get over their estrogen dominance after they have balanced the progesterone levels. Some women continue to have problems with the progesterone/estrogen ratio and must continuously treat their estrogen dominance. There is no way of knowing what category you fit into. It is all trial and error.

Hope this has answered your question. If not, keep asking and I will do my best to help.

waxingmoon



Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 6 2008, 1:17 PM

Hey Waxingmoon,

Ah I see.

I'm really annoying myself, everytime I do the hormone test I get different responses. I was so convinced I was progesterone deficient that I bought a big tub of Vitex capsules. Now looking at the symptoms again:


PMS, Insomnia, Early miscarriage, Painful and/or lumpy breasts, Unexplained weight gain, Cyclical headaches, Anxiety, Infertility

I think at most I have PMS, painful breasts before my period but not all the time, I do get headaches but not sure they are related to my cycle, and I have anxiety. I do not have weight gain (I'm 7 stone), I don't know if I'm fertile and I've never been pregnant so I don't know about miscarriage.

And I thought I didn't have enough estrogen, but doing it again I have lots of symptoms of excess estrogen:

Breast tenderness (on my cycle), Mood swings, Heavy bleeding, Anxious depression, Migraine headaches (when I was on the combined pill, was told I'd have to be on progesterone only next time), Weepines


With the hormone test:

http://www.johnleemd.com/store/resource_...etest.html

When I got to Symptom Group 4, I added up my score for progesterone deficiency (even though this was only 2) and my score for excess estrogen (which was 4) to get 6. Symptom group 4 is estrogen dominance. The one thing I don't understand is that I score 2 for both progesterone deficiency and for estrogen deficiency, but 4 for estrogen dominance. I think I was a bit happy go lucky with my ticking last time, this time I've been ticking only those that there is no question about.

So do you think I am estrogen dominant due to excess estrogen, rather than low progsterone?



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 6 2008, 3:45 PM

**Long post warning**

Here is some more detailed info about the symptoms you should be looking for when trying to guess your hormone balance.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the list of estrogen dominance symptoms- copied from the book 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause' by Dr. John Lee. As you can see there are quite a few. In order to consider yourself estrogen dominant you should have 5 or more of these symptoms. (those symptoms that are identical to estrogen deficiency are **)


Acceleration of the aging process
Allergy symptoms
Auto-immune disorders
Breast cancer
Breast tenderness**
Cervical dysplasia
Cold hands and feet as a symptom of thyroid dysfunction
Copper excess
Decreased sex drive**
Depression with anxiety or agitation**
Dry eyes
Early onset of menstruation
Endometrial cancer
Fat gain -especially around the abdomen, hips and thighs**
Fibrocystic breasts
Foggy thinking**
Gallbladder disease
Hair loss**
Headaches**
Hypoglycemia
Increased blood clotting
Infertility**
Irregular menstrual cycles**
Irritability
Insomnia**
Magnesium deficiency
Memory loss**
Mood swings**
Osteoporosis
PMS
Polycystic ovaries
Premenopausal bone loss
Prostate cancer (obviously this one is about men)
Sluggish metabolism
Thyroid dysfunction mimicking hypothyroidism
Uterine cancer
Uterine fibroids
Water retention, bloating**
Zinc deficiency

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Estrogen Deficiency Symptoms. I found this list on a website talking about early menopause. (those symptoms that are identical to estrogen dominance/progesterone deficiency are **)

Irregular Periods (changes in frequency, duration, skipped periods, etc.) **
Infertility **
Hot Flashes and Night Sweats
Vaginal Dryness
Bladder Control Problems
Insomnia/Disrupted Sleep **
Palpitations
Weight Gain (especially around your waist and abdomen)**
Skin Changes (dryness, thinning look)
Headaches **
Breast Tenderness **
Gastrointestinal Distress and Nausea.
Tingling or Itchy Skin.
"Buzzing" in your head, Electric Shock Sensation
Bloating**
Dizziness/Light headedness
Sore Joints/Muscles
Hair Loss or Thinning **
Increase in Facial Hair
Changes in Body Odor
Dry Mouth and Other Oral Symptoms
Irritability
Mood Swings **
Lowered Libido **
Anxiety **
"Brain Fog" -- difficulty concentrating, confusion **
Memory Lapses **
Extreme Fatigue/Low Energy Levels **
Confusion/Lack of Concentration **
Feeling Emotionally Detached

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So yes, it is a long and confusing list.

If the symptoms you have are all the ** ones (shared by both conditions) then I would go with the estrogen dominance -normal estrogen with low progesterone.

If you have a lot of the top list and not many of the ** ones then I would go with estrogen dominance -high estrogen with insufficient progesterone.

If you have a lot of the bottom list but also have some ** or also a lot of the top list the I would go with estrogen dominance- low estrogen and even lower progesterone.

The only way to be more certain than this is to have your hormones tested, and even that is not always very accurate.

Hope this will help more than confuse.

waxingmoon


   
This message has been edited by waxingmoon on Jul 6, 2008 6:37 PM




Sunshine
(no login)
THANK YOU!!!
July 6 2008, 5:26 PM

Waxingmoon!
You are so helpful! Thank you so much for taking the time to type up all that information, and so clearly!! From it, I think I was able to pinpoint my problem So glad to have you on this forum!



Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 6 2008, 6:58 PM

Thanks Waxingmoon, you're a legend.

I have 2 of the un-** symptoms in the first list, with 6 of the **s.

I have 5 of the un-** symptoms in the second list, with 10 of the **s.

So it looks like I do have low progesterone twinned with low to normal estrogen.



Dixieland
(Login Dixieland)
Waxingmoon
July 13 2008, 4:37 PM

Waxingmoon,

Sorry ahead of time, if this is TMI and toooo long.

Does it matter if you have had a complete hysterectomy? Because I did 2 years ago, so I don't get monthly's anymore. But the Doc left my ovaries, so that my body could still make estrogen.

I have been taking herbs from Greenbush for almost 2 years, I have played with the doses but nothing seems to happen...well, I actually did grow a minuit amount, but nothing significant. I am wondering if I shouldn't stop all the herbs that I have been taking, cause I have probably flooded my system for too long with estrogenic herbs.

I am sorry if this is way more info. than you needed, but I am so depressed, because I have tried the pills=nothing, then I found Greenbush and have been messing with that and their Bustea tea (although I don't like the body odor that it causes) so I don't drink it anymore. People kept coming up to me and telling me that I smelled like maple syrup! I know that is really weird!

I don't know if taking the test will be correct for me, as I don't have the main female parts anymore. I tried it, but everytime, I get something different.

I recently started the with suction and last night with the magnets- positive side against skin.

If you could respond, I would be very grateful
Dixieland



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 13 2008, 5:22 PM

Hi Dixieland,

It is not just estrogen that your ovaries make, but if you are ovulating they also produce progesterone. The thing about hysterectomies is that even when the ovaries are left, sometimes early menopause results.

My questions for you. How old are you? Do you have a lot of menopausal symptoms (the estrogen deficiency list). Can you tell if you are ovulating? Have you had any blood or saliva tests to know your hormone status?

When you look at the lists above (and also now posted on the newcomers section) do you find you have a lot of these symptoms.

Give me a list of what symptoms you do have using the above lists. I would be glad to help you try and figure out what might be going on and what herbal NBE might be more appropriate for you.

You will probably have a great response to the suction. The magnets have been very useful to some for firming as well as growth.

Let me know some more about you and I would be glad to help.

waxingmoon



Joey
(Login Joeykk)
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 13 2008, 6:01 PM

Holy crap, do I have a ton of Both of those categories.

I need to get my hormones tested asap.

You can buy saliva tests from the John Lee page right?

I am going to see about getting my blood tests done, AGAIN, hopefully soon.

Waxingmoon, you're a blessing on this board.

Thank you so much for posting all of this information.

I am pretty sure I have low Progestrone, and problems with my adrenal glands. I guess only a blood/saliva test will tell though.

Thank you again Waxingmoon.

-Joey



Dixieland
(Login Dixieland)
Waxongmoon....answers to your questions...
July 13 2008, 6:05 PM

Waxingmoon,

I am 41 soon to be 42 years old in the fall. I am 5'2", about 95 pounds (lost weight about 5 years ago), saggy breasts after breastfeeding 2 babies and then really bad after losing weight. Extremely stressful life, and that causes me to smoke more.

Off of the estrogen deficiency list I have: Headaches**(occasionally), Gastrointestinal Distress (IBS-which I take medicince for), Bloating** (after eating no no foods), Irritability, Mood Swings **, Anxiety **, "Brain Fog" -- difficulty concentrating, confusion **, Extreme Fatigue/Low Energy Levels **(not all the time-but when I don't get but 2-3 hours sleep then I like to take naps in the afternoon if I can fit them in), Feeling Emotionally Detached (I am not sure about this one). I don't feel these all the time, but I do have a lot of stress in my life at the moment. Before the hyst. I could feel when I was ovaluting, but I really haven't tried since then...because it still depresses me. I notice that most of mine are on both lists....what could that mean? There are several off of the top list that I have, that are not on the bottom list, but none are menopausal symptoms like hot-flashes, night sweats, etc.

No, I haven't had any tests, I asked my regular doctor about it last fall, but he wasn't to keen on the idea. I thought maybe I was starting through menopause because of the surgery, but my doctor doesn't think so. He asked me a series of questions and symptoms, but I didn't have enough of them to warrant a test (because insurance wouldn't pay for it).

I will tell you that I am very weepy all the time......but again, that could be from my extremely stressful life.

Thank you for your time and help Sorry this is so long....
Dixieland



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 13 2008, 7:23 PM

Hi Joey,
Yes, you can buy the saliva test off of the John Lee site and also other sites as well. The prices are similar, but some have better shipping charges than others.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Dixieland,
How frustrating that your doctor is not allowing you the hormone tests that you clearly need. In my opinion, insurance is one of the most harmful aspects of our current medical system.

However, even without the tests we can draw some reasonable conclusions just based on your symptoms. Since you are of 'the age', since you have had the hysterectomy, since you have all this stress and since you have mostly estrogen dominance symptoms you are likely estrogen dominant.

I would guess you would have normal to high estrogen combined with lower than normal progesterone. Many of your symptoms are thyroid based and high estrogen/low progesterone can cause these. I also think that you are producing too much cortisol from all the stress. This would use up your available progesterone (the body makes cortisol from it) and it could also lead to body fat located at the waistline.

I would highly recommend you reading the book called "What your doctor may not tell you about pre-menopause" by Dr. John Lee. You will discover a whole lot about your situation and effective ways to treat your symptoms... things your doctor may not know or may not believe in. You can feel better than you do right now.

In a nutshell the book will tell you how to use progesterone cream safely and effectively. It will tell you when to use it and how much to use. It will also guide you in other ways to cut down on excess estrogen. Whereas you could begin to just use progesterone cream or vitex, this haphazard approach would be less effective and likely add to your misery. You need strong guidance and that is what the book can offer. You can probably find the book at the library, but it is available online and in bookstores.

My opinion is that you will likely not have much progress with NBE until you have established a better hormonal balance and have found an effective way to deal with your stress. I know it may seem overwhelming at first, but I have been there before - feeling absolutely horrible with no help from medical doctors. You can make a difference and all you have to do is one thing at a time.

You could start by checking out my program page and focusing on the vitamins I take. There are a lot of them, but they really matter. I would suggest trying crushed flaxseed to begin cutting down on the thyroid like symptoms you have (the fatigue, brain fog, GI distress ... well basically everything). Nothing is going to be like pushing a button and turning it off, but little by little you will begin to feel better. And then, NBE will be possible.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon



Dixieland
(no login)
Waxingmoon
July 13 2008, 9:43 PM

Waxingmoon,
Yes, I will read through your program page.

I have already looked up the book on Amazon, I can get it pretty cheap, I also thought about trying several local used book stores to see if they have it. That way I wouldn't have to pay S&H.

So, do you think I should stop with the Greenbush herbs for awhile, until I get my hormones balanced? I also take several other herbs and vitamins on a daily basis. I don't really want to give up my multi-vitamins cause they help.

Also, since I don't have menses, when would I use the Progesterone cream? You talk about using it on certain days of your cycle...I don't have a cycle anymore.

I also need to quit smoking, but that isn't going to happen until I get my life calmed back down. I also walk on the treadmill to reduce a lot of my stress..and read my homework while I walk/jog.

I will keep you updated, and please you do the same!
Dixieland



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen Dominant Body Types - What is your program for breast enhancement?
July 14 2008, 3:28 PM

Hi Dixieland,
You might want to stop the greenbush for now. I would definitely take your vitamins and other things you do for general health. In fact you probably need more than just the vitamins you are taking. My vitamin regime, although it includes a whole lot of stuff, is designed to treat my hormone based health issues. You could use that as a guide.

The questions you have about when to use progesterone will be addressed in the book. I don't have my book in front of me and I did not memorize anything but what applied to me. The book is really enlightening and I am sure you will find your answers in it.

If you must keep smoking then I would suggest taking more vitamin C. Smoking reduces vitamin C in the body and the body uses vitamin C as a precursor to collagen and protein... the very things you need to produce more progesterone. I would say you need to take at least 1000mg of vitamin C per day. I take at least 4000mg per day and have taken as much as 20,000mg per day with no ill effect. If you want to increase your vitamin C above 1000mg then don't do it all at once. Increase by 1000 per week until you reach your desired level (too much at once creates 'spillover' which is a nicer way of saying diarrhea...)

waxingmoon

[admin]

To waxingmoon - Hormone questions
June 26 2008 at 11:34 AM Babe (no login)

Hi waxingmoon

I did the online hormone test again, now I understand why I've put on so much weight since I've started NBE because I have excess estrogen. Now, I'm doing a liver cleanse, because I'm trying to lose that 3kg I've put on, but still taking PM cos I'm hoping my body will respond better to PM, however I think my weight keep going up, should I stop taking PM? What herbs should I take?

Here are my personal details and programme: Asian, 29, 155cm, my starting weight was 42kg now almost 45kg. My NBE project began 3 months ago, massage 2 times daily, I took pure PM 500mg x2 daily for 2 months, have gained 1.5kg but no boob growth and menstrual is messed up, a month ago I've added calcium then fenugreek, EPO, Omega and Ginkgo, still no result and I've gained an other 0.5kg, therefore I off everything (except PM) and doing a liver cleanse. I really don't know what I should do next after the cleanse.




waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: To waxingmoon - Hormone questions
June 26 2008, 10:21 PM

Hi Babe,
The PM you are taking is a very potent estrogenic herb. It is probably not helping your estrogen excess and may be giving you more symptoms.

I would suggest dropping the PM completely and continuing the liver cleanse. You could then restart with support for your progesterone to balance all that excess estrogen. Vitex is an herb that will promote the production of progesterone. You could also use natural progesterone cream.

A good reference to your issue is the book by Dr. John Lee: 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause'. I have said it before and I will say it again - too bad he gave the book that title because younger women think it does not apply to them. In actuality it is an enormously helpful reference for balancing estrogen and progesterone as well as how to effectively and safely use progesterone cream.

I hope this is some help to you. Feel free to ask any more questions if you like. I will try and help you as best I can.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon




Babe
(no login)
Re: To waxingmoon - Hormone questions
June 27 2008, 6:57 AM

Waxingmoon, thank you so much for your help, your info is very helpful, I am greatly appreciated.

I think the PM has caused the excess estrogen...very disappointed PM doesn't work for me. I was wondering should I continue to take EPO, Omega, Ginkgo & Multivitamin for woman? Can I combine Vitex with those supplements? As I have spent lots of money this 3 months, I really hate to waste money by throwing them in the bin.

I also experienced messed up periods since I've started PM, I was wondering does Vitex helps with irregular periods? I off the BC pills since my NBE journey begin, should I stay off BC pills while I'm on Vitex?

Where can I purchase the book by Dr. John Lee? And where can I buy progesterone cream? I live in Australia, many things are not available in this country.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: To waxingmoon - Hormone questions
June 27 2008, 3:01 PM

Hi Babe,
The EPO, Omega, Ginko and multivitamin should be fine and you can take those with the vitex. One of the common effects of vitex is that it does regulate your period. However, the full effect of vitex might not be felt for 3 months and for some there is a slight worsening of symptoms when taking vitex initially. It is still worth it though.

As far as the book, you can find it on Amazon. You might also check your local library. I don't know about Australia and its policy on progesterone. You might check your local health food store. You could probably find it online.

Here is one resource for online progesterone cream:

http://www.allstarhealth.com/f/now-proge..._cream.htm

This is the brand I use. I think this company will ship to Australia, but I couldn't find the shipping cost. I know some of the women on this board are from Australia and they could probably tell you some better sources.

As far as the BCP I would stay off of it until you clear up the estrogen problem. BCP contains artificial progesterone which will block your receptors from the natural progesterone. You will also get more estrogen from the BCP and you don't need that right now for sure.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon



Babe
(no login)
Re: To waxingmoon - Hormone questions
June 29 2008, 2:45 AM

Hi Waxingmoon

Thanks for your advice, I was wondering what are the side effects from the Vitex? I've checked out the link you gave me, the progesterone cream is not expensive but the shipping is too over priced, US $41 shipment to Australia, I think I better do a search and see if the progesterone cream available in Australia.

How long have you been using the progesterone cream? How soon did you see result? How many cup have you gained?

Sorry if I asked to much.

Babe




waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: To waxingmoon - Hormone questions
June 29 2008, 4:33 PM

Hi Babe,
As far as vitex, there are generally no reported negative side effects. There is always the possibility that we might have an allergy to some herb, but that is very unlikely. Some people report an increase in estrogen symptoms when they first take vitex. These symptoms seem to pass after continuous use and the full effect of vitex is after about 3 months of continuous use.

I have used both vitex and progesterone cream. I used vitex off an on for as long as 9 months straight over a period of about a year and a half. I am not currently taking it because I changed my program to include goat's rue, a galactogogue which requires prolactin to work (vitex lowers prolactin).

I have used progesterone off and on since September 2006. I have used various amounts - the exact details can be found in my program page. I am still using progesterone to combat my estrogen dominance. My symptoms are much less than they were when I first started. I do not consider progesterone cream a necessity for NBE for most people, in fact I doubt most would find it very helpful for breast size at all.

It did seem to help me however. As you will read in my program page my starting size was much, much less than most here doing NBE. I definitely had a major hormone imbalance and have had it most of my life. Because I did not get the needed hormones when my breasts were first developing, they did not develop. I believe I did not have enough active estrogen receptors in my breasts and this is how progesterone cream has helped me with NBE.

So, my starting size was... 34aaaa or something miserable like that. My current size is a 34b (it is a small B, but the A cups are way too tight now). I am not stopping yet... mostly because I really wonder what a C cup will look like on me.

It has been a long road of very slow progress. I have had to change my program to find what would suit my very particular situation and I caution everyone to do the same. NBE is not a one program fits everyone kind of thing. I really doubt my program would be suitable for anyone else unless they had my weird hormone imbalance to begin with.

I hope you are able to find progesterone cream in Australia. The vitex is a reasonable alternative and you will get some help from it. You might be able to find a sympathetic doctor who treats estrogen dominance and would proscribe progesterone cream if you cannot find it otherwise.

Good luck in your journey,
waxingmoon



Babe
(no login)
Re: To waxingmoon - Hormone questions
July 1 2008, 8:01 AM

Hi Waxingmoon

Congrats to your progress, from aaaaa to a B cup is awesome, even it's a long journey, but it's worth it, I'm still a sad A cup.

Thanks for all of your advice, I will give vitex a shot soon, hopefully will have some good news to report, thanks again.

Babe



me
(Login ssunflower)
How much Vitax
July 1 2008, 5:51 PM

I'm going to start there and I'm wondering how much to take? I'm also doing massage for starters.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: To waxingmoon - Hormone questions
July 1 2008, 6:33 PM

Hi Me,
The best idea with vitex is to take it as the label directs. There is a difference in potency between herb capsules and extract capsules, but the label will indicate what is the proper dosage for each.

Massage is a great idea while you are getting your hormones under control and some have grown through massage methods alone.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon

[admin]

Waxingmoon, hmmm...
August 23 2008 at 2:30 AM lisab (Login lisbee)

If you recall, I started with progesterone cream this month. Everything went well. Breasts swelled and deflated, of course, but AF was lighter than usual, which was VERY nice.

Anyway, I wanted to share with you an email I got in response to one I sent weeks ago. It is from the company from which I bought the saliva test. I had a question and he finally responded. He offered advice on how to correct estrogen dominance in addition to the progesterone cream. I thought his answer was interesting...

"Anyway, your brief history provides important insight. It is great that your cycle has increased to 23-24 days, I would love to continue to see that lengthen to 28-30 days. I do believe the results are accurate and probably explain the very short cycle. So, yes your estrogen levels are going up to quickly and the progesterone levels appear to be lagging.

Here are some very specific recommendations:

The most important dietary recommendations are to eat a high fiber diet rich in phytoestrogens, while avoiding saturated fat, sugar, and caffeine. These simple changes can dramatically reduce circulating estrogen levels. One study looked at what happened when women switched from the standard American diet (40 percent of calories from fat, only 12 grams of fiber daily) to healthier diet (25 percent of calories from fat, 40 grams of fiber). Results showed a thirty-six percent reduction in blood estrogen levels within eight to ten weeks.
Phytoestrogens or plant estrogens are able to bind to the same cell receptors as the estrogen your body produces. That’s a good thing, because when phytoestrogens occupy the “parking places,” estrogen can’t produce effects on cells. By competing with estrogen, phytoestrogen causes a drop in estrogen effects, and are thus sometimes called antiestrogens. Great sources of phytoestrogens include soy and soy foods, ground flaxseeds, and nuts and seeds. In particular, I recommend eating 1-2 tablespoons of ground flaxseeds daily (personally, I like FortiFlax from Barlean’s).

Here are the key supplement recommendations that I give using Natural Factors products:

Build a strong foundation. There are three products that I think are critical in supporting good health:
MultiStart for Women - a high-potency multiple vitamin and mineral formula designed specifically for women. Take 3 tablets twice daily.
Enriching Greens - a great tasting “greens drink” containing highly concentrated “greens” like chlorella, spirulina, wheat grass juice, barley grass juice, etc., and herbal extracts. Take one serving (one tablespoon) in 8 ounces of water daily.
RxOmega-3 Factors – A true pharmaceutical grade fish oil supplement. Take two capsules daily.

EstroSense - a specialty formula designed to reduce toxic effects of estrogen and xenoestrogens. Take 2 capsules twice daily. Estrosense provides a number of compounds that have been shown to be beneficial in helping to detoxify and eliminate excess estrogens including:
· Indole-3-carbinol (I3C), di-indoylmethane (DIM), and sulfurophane - anti-cancer phytonutrients found in cruciferous vegetables. Research has shown that these compounds helps to breakdown cancer-causing estrogens to non-toxic forms.
· Calcium D-glucarate – prevents the reabsorption of excreted estrogens.
· Green tea polyphenols – block the negative effects of estrogen and have been shown to be protective against estrogen-related cancers.

I think you will know if we are on the right track if after 3 months you have increased the length of your cycle to 28 days. If not, then I would have some additional recommendations based upon more info from you."

Hmmm...I thought we were trying to limit our intake of phytoestrogens? I then looked up phytoestrogens in Dr. Lee's perimenopause book. In the last section of "How your nutrition affects your hormone balance" he talks about the importance of phytoestrogens. He doesn't recommend a diet "rich" in them, but Dr. Lee stresses their important role in blocking the effects of excess estrogen.

Thoughts? Should I be more willing in taking phytoestrogens for NBE? I thought I needed to stay away from them. Am I not understanding correctly?

Thanks for your insight!

Lisa




lisab
(Login lisbee)
One more thing...
August 23 2008, 2:36 AM

I do remember you saying to eat flaxseeds every day. I guess this is why. But do you think we should have a "diet rich in phytoestrogens"?



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Waxingmoon, hmmm...
August 26 2008, 10:07 PM

Hi Lisa,
As I understand it, phytoestrogens can either raise or lower your total body estrogen. It depends on the 'potency' of the phytoestrogen and how much you eat as to whether it raises or lowers estrogen in the body.

Think of all estrogen as being a key to a car and our estrogen receptors as being a lock on the door. You can have a 'key' that will fit the lock, but not unlock the door. You can have a key that will unlock the door but not get into the glove box. You can also have a key that will unlock everything. That is the world of phytoestrogens. They fit the 'lock' but they do different things.

For example, crushed flaxseed is a phytoestrogen - called a lignan. It is a very low potency phytoestrogen. This would be a key that mostly just sits in the lock and keeps other keys from accessing the door. If you use crushed flaxseed you can lower your total body estrogen.

Now, in an example using fennel - a generally low potency phytoestrogen, it can have either a raising or lowering effect. It is a key that can turn the lock and start the engine, but it is lower in potency than the body's own estrogen. If a woman takes a small amount of fennel it will fill up her empty estrogen receptors. This will give her more estrogen than she would have had if she had not taken the fennel, so her total body estrogen rises. But, if the woman takes a lot of fennel and it not only fills her empty receptors, but also blocks her body's natural estrogen from the receptor - it will in this scenario lower her total body estrogen (because fennel is lower in potency than natural estrogen).

However, let's take red clover. This phytoestrogen is even more potent than our body's own estrogen. It turns the lock, starts the engine, opens the glove box and honks the horn... lol. Taking either small or large amounts of red clover will raise the total body estrogen.

So - in a nutshell - it is true that SOME phytoestrogens can lower total body estrogen if you eat enough of them and they are lower in potency to the body's natural estrogen. But watch out for the more potent phytoestrogens like soy, red clover, licorice and PM.

If you were wanting to make sure you lowered total body estrogen the best phytoestrogen to use would be crushed flaxseed.

Hope this helps,
waxingmoon



sunflower
(Login ssunflower)
Re: Waxingmoon, hmmm...
August 27 2008, 2:00 PM

That was some great information. There's alot to learn.

Where would you get crushed flax seed?



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Waxingmoon, hmmm...
August 27 2008, 2:08 PM

The weird thing is that you would then expect RC to be a very sucessfull herb in NBE, especially for estrogen deficiency, but it doesn't seem to be any more than all other frequently mentioned estrogenic herbs. I'm estrogen deficient and I used RC but it didn't seem to have a very significent effect. And I actually got more growing pains when I was taking flaxseed oil (tho that was oil and not seed).



Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Waxingmoon, hmmm...
August 27 2008, 2:40 PM

So, OP are you saying that if we have excess estrogen we would have a shorter cycle? My cycle lasts about 40 days :-S Maybe I'm not estro-dom.



Kerrie
(Login K Kerrie)
Re: Waxingmoon, hmmm...
August 27 2008, 9:31 PM

I think it's often overlooked that phytoestrogens can LOWER estrogenic activity, so this thread is a useful reminder of it.

[Rehana]

Thank you admin ! This thread is very useful and informative and I'm happy to be a part of this
I was also suspected of being estrogen dominant but symptoms were not giving me a very clear picture ! So I went for hormones blood test and here is the report:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=25856

As you have discussed above, I come in the point no. 2 category:

"2. Estrogen Dominance caused by higher than normal estrogen paired with a normal amount of progesterone. Hormonal need: lower estrogen levels. NBE strategy: use very low dose phytoestrogens (crushed flaxseed) to block estrogen receptors from more potent estrogens and possibly support progesterone with vitex or progesterone cream until symptoms abate. NBE that focuses on massage, suction or hypnosis may work better for this category."

Discussions are not new and I don't know if any one amongst these ladies is now active on the forum!