19-02-2016, 14:41
Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 27 2009 at 11:17 PM linn (Login linn7880)
Hi!
I used vitex, saw palmetto (320 mg x 2) and pumkin seed oil 1000 mg x 3 a day . I also took goats rue 1200 mg a day and fenugreek 1900 mg a day for 4 weeks. And I think I got hypothyrodism. I lost much hair, my voice became a bit unclear and my eyes especially one of them got red and the blood vessels got very visible. Has anybody else had the same symptoms and did it disapear? I am taking a break now and I got a bit scared from it. My eyes look bad and I do'nt hope this will last forever.I have became a bit better since I stopped though.
Suela
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 28 2009, 5:52 PM
Yes I have in the past had all symptoms of hypothyroid and increasing estrogen can cause hypothyroid. Either way, whether you continue with NBE or not please look into getting enough iodine. I take Iodoral, 1 tablet a day at 12.5 mg. I felt better immediately and 1 month later feel fantastic!
Take care of yourself!
Linn
(Login linn7880)
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 28 2009, 7:35 PM
Hi!
Thanks for your answer! Good to hear that you got better. I have started to take iodine every day now
Did you got problems with red eyes too? I do'nt want to give up nbe but I am very afraid of getting thyroid problems. Do you know if the body goes back to normal after nbe if one get such problems, or will it only be ok if one is lucky? I see you are a senior member, so I wonder if you know of anybody on this board who has got permanent problems with thyroidea?
waxingmoon
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 29 2009, 3:36 PM
Hi Linn,
I am sorry to hear about your troubles and I hope you recover soon. Hypothyroid symptoms can be very similar to many other symptoms. Without a blood test it is uncertain exactly what you have.
Estrogen dominance can create low thyroid symptoms that don't show up on lab tests. There are other hormone imbalances that can lead to you symptoms as well.
What I am saying is find out for sure what you have before you begin treating it. I am glad you stopped the herbs. I think you were definitely overdoing it by using both the fenugreek and the goat's rue. Some others have noticed similar effects with any one of these herbs.
What I think you really had was overdose. You seemed to take too many things together and took too much of a couple of them. By the way - taking vitex at the same time you take galactogogues is not a good idea. Vitex increases progesterone, but at the same time it lowers prolactin. Galactogogues promote prolactin. You were giving your body one herb that canceled the NBE effect of the other herb.
The best way to do herbal NBE is to find out the lowest dosage of herbs you need to take to gain effect. If you take too many things all at once you have no idea how your body will respond to each herb. I know you have seen plenty of routines that have many herbs - but the successful ones start with very small amounts and only add another herb after a certain time has passed.
Definitely you are wise to stop all herbs. You might want to use milk thistle to help clear your liver from this overload. Give it a good month before starting anything. If you are going to use vitex then do it for 3 months or more by itself. Then if you feel you need it add the saw palmetto OR the pumkin seed oil - but not both. Do the galactogogues only after you have stopped using vitex. Do only one of them at a time.
Also - make sure you do not overdose on iodine - in excess it will give you hypothyroid symptoms.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Linn
(Login linn7880)
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 29 2009, 8:43 PM
hi Waxingmoon!
So nice to hear from you. You really have lots of wisdom when it comes to nbe.
I think You are very right about the overload. I got desperate and just started a bunch of herbs.. I have really learned now that less is better! I am taking a break and planning to start vitex again, but will find it hard to wait 3 months before adding saw palmetto.. Since the spring is soon around and I was hoping to get some results during summer..
I will go to the doctor and take some tests this week to check my thyroid function, but as you write I guess it was due to estrogen dominance. Do you think I have to wait 3 months to add something to the vitex? I have used vitex since october and only stopped it the last two weeks, so hopefully I still got it in my system..What do you think?
I remember that you said earlier that I can use fennel along with vitex, do you still thinks that is ok? after I have used vitex and maybe saw palmetto for a while though..
waxingmoon
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 30 2009, 3:53 AM
Hi Linn,
I think it would be safe to proceed with the vitex since you did not have any problems until you added everything else. I know the vitex is not going to have much NBE potential, but it will help to balance your hormones.
Your very strong reaction to the other herbs makes me wonder whether these would be right for you at all or if it was just everything together and too much to boot.
Why don't you try the vitex for about another month then stop before you begin any other herbs. In the meantime you can be working on your massage skills and even check out the suction methods to see if that could be a solution for you.
I think that for those who are prone to hormone imbalance, herbal NBE might be the wrong track to take. Don't feel desperate Linn, or even in a hurry. I am sure you will be successful, but you have to create hormone balance first and foremost and don't do anything that will take away that precious balance.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Suela
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 30 2009, 11:15 PM
"Also - make sure you do not overdose on iodine - in excess it will give you hypothyroid symptoms."
This is a myth. There isn't any evidence to prove this. I would recommend reading "Iodine Why You Need It, Why You Can't Live Without It." By David Brownstein, M.D.
Having said that I do respect all the information and knowledge you have on herbs Waxingmoon. But iodine has gotten a bad rap. People are fearful of it and they really don't need to be. In fact iodine deficiency may be a big factor included behind so many of the disease epidemics going on, such as diabetes and hormone related cancers - breast, uterine, thyroid etc. The japanese have an average daily intake of iodine of 12-13mg and even much more than that has been consumed safely. Studies have been done showing a reduction in tumors in fibrocystic breasts where 50-100 mg was taken daily.
It is a very compelling book and there are plenty of studies posted if you research them.
I just don't want anyone to be afraid of taking iodine when it can very well save some people's lives.
Hopefulgurl
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 12:08 AM
What I have read about iodine and hyperthyroidism: normally there are safeguard mechanisms inhibiting the production and release of excess amounts of thyroid hormone even when iodine is consummed in excess. It is only when these mechanisms are not functioning (rare, found in cases where people have graves' disease)can excess iodine cause hyperthyroidism.
So basically for the average person, excess iodine will not cause hyperthyroidism.
waxingmoon
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 12:44 AM
Hi Suela,
I don't just study herbs, I study nutrition and all nutritional supplements. I study human biology, I have studied it in depth and I have studied it for years.
I disagree that iodine toxicity is a myth. You very well can overdose on iodine. It really can create problems in the thyroid in either deficiency or toxicity. There may be some debate regarding what it takes to develop toxicity, but there is definitely a potential for toxicity.
For example:
Inhabitants of the coastal regions of Hokkaido, the northernmost island of Japan, whose diets contain large amounts of seaweed have remarkably high intakes of iodine - around 50 - 80 mg per day. These individuals show that:
1. Healthy subjects can maintain normal thyroid function even when they are taking several milligrams per day.
2.High dietary iodine levels markedly decrease the incidence of goiter.
3. High dietary iodine levels does not decrease the frequency of Grave's disease and Hashimoto's disease.
4. High dietary iodine may induce hypothyroidism in autoimmune thyroid diseases and may inhibit the effects of thyroid drugs.
So if we look at #1 and #2 we might come to the conclusion that overdose of iodine is not a problem in fact it is a benefit, but if we look at #3 and #4 we find that for those with common autoimmune thyroid conditions, the overdose is not going to prevent the condition and in fact is going to induce hypothyroidism and make the normal drugs used to treat these conditions invalid.
So, since I personally come from a family of autoimmune thyroid conditions and I display autoimmune thyroid symptoms if I don't control my diet then I would be one of the people who indeed would suffer from the suggestion of taking up to 100 mg of iodine.
There are plenty of others out there who have undiagnosed autoimmune thyroid disorders. They could be highly at risk if they follow Dr. Brownstein's plan.
I am sure that Dr. Brownstein is very compelling in his arguments and I have not read his book, however, I would also not bet my health on him being more right than the research that has previously been done on this subject.
If you want another book that might help shed more light on this complicated subject then I can highly recommend "Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease" by Shils, Olson, Shike, and Ross. It is not written for laypeople, so there would be a lot of sifting through some compelling and very scientific information contained, but you would come away with a better understanding of iodine in the diet.
Now, you and I do agree that iodine is a necessary supplement in the diet - however, there is no compelling reason a person needs to take more than a milligram or 2 per day. This is especially in light of the fact that iodized salt is provided in our diets in abundance. Anyone eating processed foods will probably have no iodine deficiency.
So to anyone else reading this - do your research about iodine. Don't trust what Suela or I am saying regarding this topic. Look it up yourself. But remember - just like herbs - what you want from a supplement is the right amount - too much can cause as much or more problems than not enough.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
waxingmoon
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 12:49 AM
P.S. Autoimmune thyroid condition affects about 1 out of 50 people - about 5.4 million people in the USA. This does not exactly make it rare.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Hopefulgurl
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 3:49 PM
Waxingmoon, you are right autoimmune thyroid conditions are not rare. I shouldn't have said rare.
I just looked up the prevalence of graves' disease and I read 1 in 89, so that isn't rare.
The info I had written I had copied from a website, probably not the best thing to do. Now I feel bad for perhaps given the wrong information. So I did some more research... The information I read was mostly controversial. I did read that there are definitely benefits to taking iodine (cardiovascular health and prevents certain forms of cancer). Some studies showed that there is a link between excess iodine and hyperthyroidism, others said that that link may not necessarily there. Some people may not develop hyperthyroidism, but some people may. But I think in general too much of anything can be detrimental to your health.
Here are just a few scientific articles I found:
Yang F. Et al. (2007) Chronic iodine excess does not increase the incidence of hyperthyroidism: a prospective community-based epidemiological survey in China. European Journal of Endocrinology. 156(4):403-8.
AB OBJECTIVE: An increasing incidence of hyperthyroidism has been observed when iodine supplementation has been introduced to an iodine-deficient population. Moreover, the influence of chronic more than adequate or excessive iodine intake on the epidemiological features of hyperthyroidism has not been widely and thoroughly described. To investigate the influences of different iodine intake levels on the incidence of hyperthyroidism, we conducted a prospective community-based survey in three communities with mild-deficient, more than adequate (previously mild deficient iodine intake), and excessive iodine intake. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: In three rural Chinese communities, a total of 3761 unselected inhabitants aged above 13 years participated in the original investigation and 3018 of them received identical examinations after 5 years. Thyroid function, levels of thyroid peroxidase antibody (TPOAb), thyroglobulin antibody and urinary iodine excretion were measured and thyroid ultrasound examination was also performed. RESULTS: In three communities, median urinary iodine excretion was 88, 214, and 634 microg/l (P<0.05) respectively. The cumulative incidence of hyperthyroidism was 1.4, 0.9, and 0.8% (P>0.05) respectively. Autoimmune hyperthyroidism was predominant in thyroid hyperfunction in all the three cohorts. Either positive TPOAb (>50 U/ml) or goiter in original healthy participants was associated with the occurrence of unsuspected hyperthyroidism in 5 years (logistic regression, OR=4.2 (95% CI 1.7-8.8) for positive TPOAb, OR=3.1 (95% CI 1.4-6.8) for goiter). CONCLUSION: Iodine supplementation may not induce an increase in hyperthyroidism in a previously mildly iodine-deficient population. Chronic iodine excess does not apparently increase the risk of autoimmune hyperthyroidism, suggesting that excessive iodine intake may not be an environmental factor involved in the occurrence of autoimmune hyperthyroidism.
Roti, E., and E.D. Uberti (2001) Iodine excess and hyperthyroidism. Thyroid: the official journal of the American Thyroid Association 11(5):493-500
150 microg iodine are daily required for thyroid hormone synthesis. The thyroid gland has intrinsic mechanisms that maintain normal thyroid function even in the presence of iodine excess. Large quantities of iodide are present in drugs, antiseptics, contrast media and food preservatives. Iodine induced hyperthyroidism is frequently observed in patients affected by euthyroid iodine deficient goiter when suddenly exposed to excess iodine. Possibly the presence of autonomous thyroid function permits the synthesis and release of excess quantities of thyroid hormones. The presence of thyroid autoimmunity in patients residing in iodine-insufficient areas who develop iodine-induced hyperthyroidism has not been unanimously observed. In iodine-sufficient areas, iodine-induced hyperthyroidism has been reported in euthyroid patients with previous thyroid diseases. Euthyroid patients previously treated with antithyroid drugs for Graves' disease are prone to develop iodine-induced hyperthyroidism. As well, excess iodine in hyperthyroid Graves' disease patients may reduce the effectiveness of the antithyroid drugs. Occasionally iodine-induced hyperthyroidism has been observed in euthyroid patients with a previous episode of post-partum thyroiditis, amiodarone destructive or type II thyrotoxicosis and recombinant interferon-alpha induced destructive thyrotoxicosis. Amiodarone administration may induce thyrotoxicosis. Two mechanisms are responsible for this condition. One is related to excess iodine released from the drug, approximately 9 mg of iodine following a daily dose of 300 mg amiodarone. This condition is an iodine-induced thyrotoxicosis or type I amiodarone-induced thyrotoxicosis. The other mechanism is due to the amiodarone molecule that induces a destruction of the thyroid follicles with a release of preformed hormones. This condition is called amiodarone-induced destructive thyrotoxicosis or type II thyrotoxicosis. Patients developing type I thyrotoxicosis in general have preexisting nodular goiter whereas those developing type II thyrotoxicosis have a normal thyroid gland. The latter group of patients, after recovering from the destructive process, may develop permanent hypothyroidism as the consequence of fibrosis of the gland.
Hoption Cann SA (2006) Hypothesis: dietary iodine intake in the etiology of cardiovascular disease. Journal of the American College of Nutrition. 25(1):1-11
This paper reviews evidence suggesting that iodine deficiency can have deleterious effects on the cardiovascular system, and correspondingly, that a higher iodine intake may benefit cardiovascular function. In recent years, public health bodies have aggressively promoted sodium restriction as a means of reducing hypertension and the risk of cardiovascular disease. These inducements have led to a general decline in iodine intake in many developed countries. For example, a United States national health survey conducted in the early 1970s observed that 1 in 40 individuals had urinary iodine levels suggestive of moderate or greater iodine deficiency; twenty years later, moderate to severe iodine deficiency was observed in 1 in 9 participants. Regional iodine intake has been shown to be associated with the prevalence of hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism, where autoimmune hypothyroidism is the more common of the two in regions with moderate to high iodine intake. Both of these thyroid abnormalities have been shown to negatively affect cardiovascular function. Selenium, an important antioxidant in the thyroid and involved in the metabolism of iodine-containing thyroid hormones, may play an interactive role in the development of these thyroid irregularities, and in turn, cardiovascular disease. Iodine and iodine-rich foods have long been used as a treatment for hypertension and cardiovascular disease; yet, modern randomized studies examining the effects of iodine on cardiovascular disease have not been carried out. The time has come for investigations of sodium, hypertension, and cardiovascular disease to also consider the adverse effects that may result from mild or greater iodine deficiency.
Suela
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SENIOR MEMBER
Iodine
March 31 2009, 6:29 PM
While I disagree with SOME of the information that you posted about iodine, Waxingmoon I want to apologize if I came across as offensive in any way. It is not my intention to disrespect anybody. I would rather us be friends than feel I am right.
We all have to make our own choices and do our own research into finding what is right for us.
Here is some of the reading I have done:
http://optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-01/IOD_01.htm
http://optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-02/IOD_02.htm
Have you heard of the curezone forum? It's a huge forum with many topics on natural healing.
Here is a forum where people have posted their experiences using iodine. There are positive reports as well as some negative. We are all different and our bodies DO respond differently:
http://www.curezone.com/forums/s.asp?f=815&ob=d&c=4
I am just posting this as information. I wouldn't want anyone to become ill from taking too much iodine either, but after reading Dr. Browsteins' book which is based on studies, not just arguements, I would have to disagree with the amount that you say is needed by the body as a daily requirement.
The thing is we need to acquire our own information, and educate ourselves and try for ourselves, to see what works.
Excerpt from Iodine Why You Need It Why You Can't Live Without It (4th edition)....
The body's tissue requirements for iodine
(pg91)
"At sufficiency, the thyroid gland holds a total of approximately 50 mg of iodine. The thyroid gland needs approximately 6mg/day of iodine for sufficiency. The breasts need at least 5mg of iodine; that leaves 2mg (13mg-11mg) of iodine for the rest of the body. This 2mg is still well above the RDA (14x the RDA) of 150ug/day of iodine. Furthermore, it is necessary not only to get your iodine levels evaluated and to supplement with the correct amount and form of iodine."
It does have a section for autoimmune thyroid disease with a suggested therapy.
I am feeling so much better myself after taking 12.5mg of iodine for one month. My body has warmed up, my mood has improved greatly, I sleep better at night and feel much less tired during the day.
I only wanted to share what has helped me.
I did not mean to cause an arguement.
waxingmoon
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 8:51 PM
Hi Hopefulgirl and Suela,
What a wonderful discussion this has brought about, just as I had hoped for. We should never fear that we disagree because greater truth is brought out than when we agree and all say the same things.
In regards to HYPERthyroidism (too much thyroid hormone produced making you have too much energy and lose weight and your eyes bug out of your head... yuck) - yes, I do not think that excess iodine creates this event very often. It can and it does, but this is usually easily controlled by reducing the iodine level. This effect is experienced by fewer people than the other effect iodine induced HYPOthyroidism (not enough thyroid hormone produced making you have very little energy, feel cold all the time, have sleep issues, constipation and problems with your weight... yuck). The HYPER is more likely in those situations where there has been a deficiency and then suddenly there is an excess.
Now as far as the worry about the HYPOthyroidism this is more likely in those with autoimmune conditions effecting the thyroid. Those with this type of autoimmune situation will not respond normally to iodine. They must watch out for excess which will give them the same symptoms as deficiency.
So what if a person who has HYPOthyroid symptoms decides to take iodine? Well, if they are deficient and have a normally functioning thyroid it could really help them. Even if they are not deficient taking more than they need should not be a problem.
BUT.... what if this person who has HYPOthyroid symptoms has an autoimmune condition? If they were deficient in iodine, the increase of iodine may or may not make any difference. If they were not deficient in iodine and they take more than they need it could actually make their symptoms worse - and worse yet it would interfere with any medication they were taking for their condition.
So, just what is an acceptable amount of iodine? That is under debate. It is probably greater than the RDA, but how much greater? Also, it could very well be that a person with autoimmune conditions may tolerate much less.
Also - just how much is your diet supplying you anyway? Remember we supplement salt with iodine in order to avoid widespread iodine deficiency. If you consume processed foods then you are receiving iodine in those foods. If you seldom consume processed foods and do not add salt to your foods then - hey maybe you need to supplement with iodine.
If a person wants to supplement their diet with iodine - FIRST find out if you have an autoimmune thyroid tendency. It is a simple test to find out if your body is producing thyroid antibodies. These antibodies are produced well before any other thyroid test will show a problem. When I had mine tested they were 4 times higher than normal and yet my other thyroid tests came out normal.
I know it seems like a lot of bother to get tested -but your health is at stake. Why leave it to chance. If you don't have thyroid antibodies then supplementing with iodine is very unlikely to cause you any harm and could do you a lot of good. If you do have thyroid antibodies then you need to watch how much iodine you receive and do other dietary things to aid your thyroid and put your autoimmune condition into remission.
So again Hopefulgirl and Suela, I am very glad we have had this discussion. Now everyone reading this knows much more than before about thyroid conditions, supplementing with iodine and also how to be respectful and disagree with someone politely. My complements to you both.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Suela
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 9:15 PM
My compliments to you also Waxingmoon for being very gracious, caring and considerate.
I was a little bit worried about this conversation because I remember this forum having some pretty heated discussions back in 2006. LOL. ;D
Suela
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 9:25 PM
Whoops, I got logged out. Don't know if that posted or not.
Trying again...
My compliments to you Waxingmoon and Hopefulgirl also. Thank you for being gracious, kind and considerate.
I was a little bit worried about our conversation since I remember some discussions becoming very heated back in 2006 on this forum. So I wasn't sure what to expect when I added my two cents.
... I remember some crazy debate about cocoa butter cream. Heh he
Were you around for that Waxingmoon?
waxingmoon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 9:31 PM
Hi Suela,
HA HA -the Cocoa butter flame wars... ah what good stuff those were.
Yeah, if we were going down that path we would have already called each other names and done the most we could to completely and thoroughly disrespect and insult one another...
... tempting... lol, but I like the thoughtful, kind and considerate approach as well, so today... no wars... lol.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
March 27 2009 at 11:17 PM linn (Login linn7880)
Hi!
I used vitex, saw palmetto (320 mg x 2) and pumkin seed oil 1000 mg x 3 a day . I also took goats rue 1200 mg a day and fenugreek 1900 mg a day for 4 weeks. And I think I got hypothyrodism. I lost much hair, my voice became a bit unclear and my eyes especially one of them got red and the blood vessels got very visible. Has anybody else had the same symptoms and did it disapear? I am taking a break now and I got a bit scared from it. My eyes look bad and I do'nt hope this will last forever.I have became a bit better since I stopped though.
Suela
(Login Suela2)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 28 2009, 5:52 PM
Yes I have in the past had all symptoms of hypothyroid and increasing estrogen can cause hypothyroid. Either way, whether you continue with NBE or not please look into getting enough iodine. I take Iodoral, 1 tablet a day at 12.5 mg. I felt better immediately and 1 month later feel fantastic!
Take care of yourself!
Linn
(Login linn7880)
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 28 2009, 7:35 PM
Hi!
Thanks for your answer! Good to hear that you got better. I have started to take iodine every day now
Did you got problems with red eyes too? I do'nt want to give up nbe but I am very afraid of getting thyroid problems. Do you know if the body goes back to normal after nbe if one get such problems, or will it only be ok if one is lucky? I see you are a senior member, so I wonder if you know of anybody on this board who has got permanent problems with thyroidea?waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 29 2009, 3:36 PM
Hi Linn,
I am sorry to hear about your troubles and I hope you recover soon. Hypothyroid symptoms can be very similar to many other symptoms. Without a blood test it is uncertain exactly what you have.
Estrogen dominance can create low thyroid symptoms that don't show up on lab tests. There are other hormone imbalances that can lead to you symptoms as well.
What I am saying is find out for sure what you have before you begin treating it. I am glad you stopped the herbs. I think you were definitely overdoing it by using both the fenugreek and the goat's rue. Some others have noticed similar effects with any one of these herbs.
What I think you really had was overdose. You seemed to take too many things together and took too much of a couple of them. By the way - taking vitex at the same time you take galactogogues is not a good idea. Vitex increases progesterone, but at the same time it lowers prolactin. Galactogogues promote prolactin. You were giving your body one herb that canceled the NBE effect of the other herb.
The best way to do herbal NBE is to find out the lowest dosage of herbs you need to take to gain effect. If you take too many things all at once you have no idea how your body will respond to each herb. I know you have seen plenty of routines that have many herbs - but the successful ones start with very small amounts and only add another herb after a certain time has passed.
Definitely you are wise to stop all herbs. You might want to use milk thistle to help clear your liver from this overload. Give it a good month before starting anything. If you are going to use vitex then do it for 3 months or more by itself. Then if you feel you need it add the saw palmetto OR the pumkin seed oil - but not both. Do the galactogogues only after you have stopped using vitex. Do only one of them at a time.
Also - make sure you do not overdose on iodine - in excess it will give you hypothyroid symptoms.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Linn
(Login linn7880)
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 29 2009, 8:43 PM
hi Waxingmoon!
So nice to hear from you. You really have lots of wisdom when it comes to nbe.
I think You are very right about the overload. I got desperate and just started a bunch of herbs.. I have really learned now that less is better! I am taking a break and planning to start vitex again, but will find it hard to wait 3 months before adding saw palmetto.. Since the spring is soon around and I was hoping to get some results during summer..
I will go to the doctor and take some tests this week to check my thyroid function, but as you write I guess it was due to estrogen dominance. Do you think I have to wait 3 months to add something to the vitex? I have used vitex since october and only stopped it the last two weeks, so hopefully I still got it in my system..What do you think?
I remember that you said earlier that I can use fennel along with vitex, do you still thinks that is ok? after I have used vitex and maybe saw palmetto for a while though..
waxingmoon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 30 2009, 3:53 AM
Hi Linn,
I think it would be safe to proceed with the vitex since you did not have any problems until you added everything else. I know the vitex is not going to have much NBE potential, but it will help to balance your hormones.
Your very strong reaction to the other herbs makes me wonder whether these would be right for you at all or if it was just everything together and too much to boot.
Why don't you try the vitex for about another month then stop before you begin any other herbs. In the meantime you can be working on your massage skills and even check out the suction methods to see if that could be a solution for you.
I think that for those who are prone to hormone imbalance, herbal NBE might be the wrong track to take. Don't feel desperate Linn, or even in a hurry. I am sure you will be successful, but you have to create hormone balance first and foremost and don't do anything that will take away that precious balance.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Suela
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 30 2009, 11:15 PM
"Also - make sure you do not overdose on iodine - in excess it will give you hypothyroid symptoms."
This is a myth. There isn't any evidence to prove this. I would recommend reading "Iodine Why You Need It, Why You Can't Live Without It." By David Brownstein, M.D.
Having said that I do respect all the information and knowledge you have on herbs Waxingmoon. But iodine has gotten a bad rap. People are fearful of it and they really don't need to be. In fact iodine deficiency may be a big factor included behind so many of the disease epidemics going on, such as diabetes and hormone related cancers - breast, uterine, thyroid etc. The japanese have an average daily intake of iodine of 12-13mg and even much more than that has been consumed safely. Studies have been done showing a reduction in tumors in fibrocystic breasts where 50-100 mg was taken daily.
It is a very compelling book and there are plenty of studies posted if you research them.
I just don't want anyone to be afraid of taking iodine when it can very well save some people's lives.
Hopefulgurl
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 12:08 AM
What I have read about iodine and hyperthyroidism: normally there are safeguard mechanisms inhibiting the production and release of excess amounts of thyroid hormone even when iodine is consummed in excess. It is only when these mechanisms are not functioning (rare, found in cases where people have graves' disease)can excess iodine cause hyperthyroidism.
So basically for the average person, excess iodine will not cause hyperthyroidism.
waxingmoon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 12:44 AM
Hi Suela,
I don't just study herbs, I study nutrition and all nutritional supplements. I study human biology, I have studied it in depth and I have studied it for years.
I disagree that iodine toxicity is a myth. You very well can overdose on iodine. It really can create problems in the thyroid in either deficiency or toxicity. There may be some debate regarding what it takes to develop toxicity, but there is definitely a potential for toxicity.
For example:
Inhabitants of the coastal regions of Hokkaido, the northernmost island of Japan, whose diets contain large amounts of seaweed have remarkably high intakes of iodine - around 50 - 80 mg per day. These individuals show that:
1. Healthy subjects can maintain normal thyroid function even when they are taking several milligrams per day.
2.High dietary iodine levels markedly decrease the incidence of goiter.
3. High dietary iodine levels does not decrease the frequency of Grave's disease and Hashimoto's disease.
4. High dietary iodine may induce hypothyroidism in autoimmune thyroid diseases and may inhibit the effects of thyroid drugs.
So if we look at #1 and #2 we might come to the conclusion that overdose of iodine is not a problem in fact it is a benefit, but if we look at #3 and #4 we find that for those with common autoimmune thyroid conditions, the overdose is not going to prevent the condition and in fact is going to induce hypothyroidism and make the normal drugs used to treat these conditions invalid.
So, since I personally come from a family of autoimmune thyroid conditions and I display autoimmune thyroid symptoms if I don't control my diet then I would be one of the people who indeed would suffer from the suggestion of taking up to 100 mg of iodine.
There are plenty of others out there who have undiagnosed autoimmune thyroid disorders. They could be highly at risk if they follow Dr. Brownstein's plan.
I am sure that Dr. Brownstein is very compelling in his arguments and I have not read his book, however, I would also not bet my health on him being more right than the research that has previously been done on this subject.
If you want another book that might help shed more light on this complicated subject then I can highly recommend "Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease" by Shils, Olson, Shike, and Ross. It is not written for laypeople, so there would be a lot of sifting through some compelling and very scientific information contained, but you would come away with a better understanding of iodine in the diet.
Now, you and I do agree that iodine is a necessary supplement in the diet - however, there is no compelling reason a person needs to take more than a milligram or 2 per day. This is especially in light of the fact that iodized salt is provided in our diets in abundance. Anyone eating processed foods will probably have no iodine deficiency.
So to anyone else reading this - do your research about iodine. Don't trust what Suela or I am saying regarding this topic. Look it up yourself. But remember - just like herbs - what you want from a supplement is the right amount - too much can cause as much or more problems than not enough.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
waxingmoon
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 12:49 AM
P.S. Autoimmune thyroid condition affects about 1 out of 50 people - about 5.4 million people in the USA. This does not exactly make it rare.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Hopefulgurl
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 3:49 PM
Waxingmoon, you are right autoimmune thyroid conditions are not rare. I shouldn't have said rare.
I just looked up the prevalence of graves' disease and I read 1 in 89, so that isn't rare.
The info I had written I had copied from a website, probably not the best thing to do. Now I feel bad for perhaps given the wrong information. So I did some more research... The information I read was mostly controversial. I did read that there are definitely benefits to taking iodine (cardiovascular health and prevents certain forms of cancer). Some studies showed that there is a link between excess iodine and hyperthyroidism, others said that that link may not necessarily there. Some people may not develop hyperthyroidism, but some people may. But I think in general too much of anything can be detrimental to your health.
Here are just a few scientific articles I found:
Yang F. Et al. (2007) Chronic iodine excess does not increase the incidence of hyperthyroidism: a prospective community-based epidemiological survey in China. European Journal of Endocrinology. 156(4):403-8.
AB OBJECTIVE: An increasing incidence of hyperthyroidism has been observed when iodine supplementation has been introduced to an iodine-deficient population. Moreover, the influence of chronic more than adequate or excessive iodine intake on the epidemiological features of hyperthyroidism has not been widely and thoroughly described. To investigate the influences of different iodine intake levels on the incidence of hyperthyroidism, we conducted a prospective community-based survey in three communities with mild-deficient, more than adequate (previously mild deficient iodine intake), and excessive iodine intake. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: In three rural Chinese communities, a total of 3761 unselected inhabitants aged above 13 years participated in the original investigation and 3018 of them received identical examinations after 5 years. Thyroid function, levels of thyroid peroxidase antibody (TPOAb), thyroglobulin antibody and urinary iodine excretion were measured and thyroid ultrasound examination was also performed. RESULTS: In three communities, median urinary iodine excretion was 88, 214, and 634 microg/l (P<0.05) respectively. The cumulative incidence of hyperthyroidism was 1.4, 0.9, and 0.8% (P>0.05) respectively. Autoimmune hyperthyroidism was predominant in thyroid hyperfunction in all the three cohorts. Either positive TPOAb (>50 U/ml) or goiter in original healthy participants was associated with the occurrence of unsuspected hyperthyroidism in 5 years (logistic regression, OR=4.2 (95% CI 1.7-8.8) for positive TPOAb, OR=3.1 (95% CI 1.4-6.8) for goiter). CONCLUSION: Iodine supplementation may not induce an increase in hyperthyroidism in a previously mildly iodine-deficient population. Chronic iodine excess does not apparently increase the risk of autoimmune hyperthyroidism, suggesting that excessive iodine intake may not be an environmental factor involved in the occurrence of autoimmune hyperthyroidism.
Roti, E., and E.D. Uberti (2001) Iodine excess and hyperthyroidism. Thyroid: the official journal of the American Thyroid Association 11(5):493-500
150 microg iodine are daily required for thyroid hormone synthesis. The thyroid gland has intrinsic mechanisms that maintain normal thyroid function even in the presence of iodine excess. Large quantities of iodide are present in drugs, antiseptics, contrast media and food preservatives. Iodine induced hyperthyroidism is frequently observed in patients affected by euthyroid iodine deficient goiter when suddenly exposed to excess iodine. Possibly the presence of autonomous thyroid function permits the synthesis and release of excess quantities of thyroid hormones. The presence of thyroid autoimmunity in patients residing in iodine-insufficient areas who develop iodine-induced hyperthyroidism has not been unanimously observed. In iodine-sufficient areas, iodine-induced hyperthyroidism has been reported in euthyroid patients with previous thyroid diseases. Euthyroid patients previously treated with antithyroid drugs for Graves' disease are prone to develop iodine-induced hyperthyroidism. As well, excess iodine in hyperthyroid Graves' disease patients may reduce the effectiveness of the antithyroid drugs. Occasionally iodine-induced hyperthyroidism has been observed in euthyroid patients with a previous episode of post-partum thyroiditis, amiodarone destructive or type II thyrotoxicosis and recombinant interferon-alpha induced destructive thyrotoxicosis. Amiodarone administration may induce thyrotoxicosis. Two mechanisms are responsible for this condition. One is related to excess iodine released from the drug, approximately 9 mg of iodine following a daily dose of 300 mg amiodarone. This condition is an iodine-induced thyrotoxicosis or type I amiodarone-induced thyrotoxicosis. The other mechanism is due to the amiodarone molecule that induces a destruction of the thyroid follicles with a release of preformed hormones. This condition is called amiodarone-induced destructive thyrotoxicosis or type II thyrotoxicosis. Patients developing type I thyrotoxicosis in general have preexisting nodular goiter whereas those developing type II thyrotoxicosis have a normal thyroid gland. The latter group of patients, after recovering from the destructive process, may develop permanent hypothyroidism as the consequence of fibrosis of the gland.
Hoption Cann SA (2006) Hypothesis: dietary iodine intake in the etiology of cardiovascular disease. Journal of the American College of Nutrition. 25(1):1-11
This paper reviews evidence suggesting that iodine deficiency can have deleterious effects on the cardiovascular system, and correspondingly, that a higher iodine intake may benefit cardiovascular function. In recent years, public health bodies have aggressively promoted sodium restriction as a means of reducing hypertension and the risk of cardiovascular disease. These inducements have led to a general decline in iodine intake in many developed countries. For example, a United States national health survey conducted in the early 1970s observed that 1 in 40 individuals had urinary iodine levels suggestive of moderate or greater iodine deficiency; twenty years later, moderate to severe iodine deficiency was observed in 1 in 9 participants. Regional iodine intake has been shown to be associated with the prevalence of hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism, where autoimmune hypothyroidism is the more common of the two in regions with moderate to high iodine intake. Both of these thyroid abnormalities have been shown to negatively affect cardiovascular function. Selenium, an important antioxidant in the thyroid and involved in the metabolism of iodine-containing thyroid hormones, may play an interactive role in the development of these thyroid irregularities, and in turn, cardiovascular disease. Iodine and iodine-rich foods have long been used as a treatment for hypertension and cardiovascular disease; yet, modern randomized studies examining the effects of iodine on cardiovascular disease have not been carried out. The time has come for investigations of sodium, hypertension, and cardiovascular disease to also consider the adverse effects that may result from mild or greater iodine deficiency.
Suela
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SENIOR MEMBER
Iodine
March 31 2009, 6:29 PM
While I disagree with SOME of the information that you posted about iodine, Waxingmoon I want to apologize if I came across as offensive in any way. It is not my intention to disrespect anybody. I would rather us be friends than feel I am right.
We all have to make our own choices and do our own research into finding what is right for us.
Here is some of the reading I have done:
http://optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-01/IOD_01.htm
http://optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-02/IOD_02.htm
Have you heard of the curezone forum? It's a huge forum with many topics on natural healing.
Here is a forum where people have posted their experiences using iodine. There are positive reports as well as some negative. We are all different and our bodies DO respond differently:
http://www.curezone.com/forums/s.asp?f=815&ob=d&c=4
I am just posting this as information. I wouldn't want anyone to become ill from taking too much iodine either, but after reading Dr. Browsteins' book which is based on studies, not just arguements, I would have to disagree with the amount that you say is needed by the body as a daily requirement.
The thing is we need to acquire our own information, and educate ourselves and try for ourselves, to see what works.
Excerpt from Iodine Why You Need It Why You Can't Live Without It (4th edition)....
The body's tissue requirements for iodine
(pg91)
"At sufficiency, the thyroid gland holds a total of approximately 50 mg of iodine. The thyroid gland needs approximately 6mg/day of iodine for sufficiency. The breasts need at least 5mg of iodine; that leaves 2mg (13mg-11mg) of iodine for the rest of the body. This 2mg is still well above the RDA (14x the RDA) of 150ug/day of iodine. Furthermore, it is necessary not only to get your iodine levels evaluated and to supplement with the correct amount and form of iodine."
It does have a section for autoimmune thyroid disease with a suggested therapy.
I am feeling so much better myself after taking 12.5mg of iodine for one month. My body has warmed up, my mood has improved greatly, I sleep better at night and feel much less tired during the day.
I only wanted to share what has helped me.
I did not mean to cause an arguement.
waxingmoon
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 8:51 PM
Hi Hopefulgirl and Suela,
What a wonderful discussion this has brought about, just as I had hoped for. We should never fear that we disagree because greater truth is brought out than when we agree and all say the same things.
In regards to HYPERthyroidism (too much thyroid hormone produced making you have too much energy and lose weight and your eyes bug out of your head... yuck) - yes, I do not think that excess iodine creates this event very often. It can and it does, but this is usually easily controlled by reducing the iodine level. This effect is experienced by fewer people than the other effect iodine induced HYPOthyroidism (not enough thyroid hormone produced making you have very little energy, feel cold all the time, have sleep issues, constipation and problems with your weight... yuck). The HYPER is more likely in those situations where there has been a deficiency and then suddenly there is an excess.
Now as far as the worry about the HYPOthyroidism this is more likely in those with autoimmune conditions effecting the thyroid. Those with this type of autoimmune situation will not respond normally to iodine. They must watch out for excess which will give them the same symptoms as deficiency.
So what if a person who has HYPOthyroid symptoms decides to take iodine? Well, if they are deficient and have a normally functioning thyroid it could really help them. Even if they are not deficient taking more than they need should not be a problem.
BUT.... what if this person who has HYPOthyroid symptoms has an autoimmune condition? If they were deficient in iodine, the increase of iodine may or may not make any difference. If they were not deficient in iodine and they take more than they need it could actually make their symptoms worse - and worse yet it would interfere with any medication they were taking for their condition.
So, just what is an acceptable amount of iodine? That is under debate. It is probably greater than the RDA, but how much greater? Also, it could very well be that a person with autoimmune conditions may tolerate much less.
Also - just how much is your diet supplying you anyway? Remember we supplement salt with iodine in order to avoid widespread iodine deficiency. If you consume processed foods then you are receiving iodine in those foods. If you seldom consume processed foods and do not add salt to your foods then - hey maybe you need to supplement with iodine.
If a person wants to supplement their diet with iodine - FIRST find out if you have an autoimmune thyroid tendency. It is a simple test to find out if your body is producing thyroid antibodies. These antibodies are produced well before any other thyroid test will show a problem. When I had mine tested they were 4 times higher than normal and yet my other thyroid tests came out normal.
I know it seems like a lot of bother to get tested -but your health is at stake. Why leave it to chance. If you don't have thyroid antibodies then supplementing with iodine is very unlikely to cause you any harm and could do you a lot of good. If you do have thyroid antibodies then you need to watch how much iodine you receive and do other dietary things to aid your thyroid and put your autoimmune condition into remission.
So again Hopefulgirl and Suela, I am very glad we have had this discussion. Now everyone reading this knows much more than before about thyroid conditions, supplementing with iodine and also how to be respectful and disagree with someone politely. My complements to you both.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Suela
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Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 9:15 PM
My compliments to you also Waxingmoon for being very gracious, caring and considerate.
I was a little bit worried about this conversation because I remember this forum having some pretty heated discussions back in 2006. LOL. ;D
Suela
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 9:25 PM
Whoops, I got logged out. Don't know if that posted or not.
Trying again...
My compliments to you Waxingmoon and Hopefulgirl also. Thank you for being gracious, kind and considerate.
I was a little bit worried about our conversation since I remember some discussions becoming very heated back in 2006 on this forum. So I wasn't sure what to expect when I added my two cents.
... I remember some crazy debate about cocoa butter cream. Heh he
Were you around for that Waxingmoon?
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Hypothyrodism? has anybody else has the same symptoms?
March 31 2009, 9:31 PM
Hi Suela,
HA HA -the Cocoa butter flame wars... ah what good stuff those were.
Yeah, if we were going down that path we would have already called each other names and done the most we could to completely and thoroughly disrespect and insult one another...
... tempting... lol, but I like the thoughtful, kind and considerate approach as well, so today... no wars... lol.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon