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red clover and licorice anti-progesterone?
March 2 2007 at 10:48 PM lil dunny (Login lil_dunny)

PROGESTOGENIC HERBS ELUSIVE

Over 150 common herbs were tested to see how well they bind to human breast cell receptors to compete with the female hormones. Of the common plants studied, the most estrogenic were soy bean (Soya glacine), licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra), red clover (Trifolium pratense), thyme (Thymus vulgaris), turmeric (Curcuma longa), and hops (Humulus lupulus). Bloodroot (Sanguinaria canadensis), yucca (Yucca species), and yellow dock (Rumex crispus) also showed significant hormonal activity. Since the ability to bind receptors does not mean that herbs act hormonally in the body, they were further tested by measuring hormones in women's saliva. (Saliva is a highly filtered version of serum so it gives a good idea of what hormones are in the blood.) Estrogenic herbs, especially soymilk, were active. Dong quai (Angelica sinenis) produced very low estradiol and may suppress this type of estrogen. Some herbs reputed to be hormonal, such as flaxseed (Linum usitatissimum) and black cohosh (Actaea racemosa aka. Cimicifuga racemosa), didn’t change saliva hormones at all. However, they may work in other ways, perhaps as estrogen precursors. (Flaxseed’s estrogenic compounds are created by flora in the bowel.) Also, false results can occur when substances such as tannins are present. The six most potent common herbs to bind progesterone receptors were oregano (Origanum vulgare), verbena (Verbena species), turmeric, thyme, red clover, and damania (Turnera difussa). Herbs with anti-progesterone activity were red clover, licorice, goldenseal, pennyroyal (Mentha pulegium), nutmeg (Myristica fragrans), and mandrake (Podophyllum peltatum). Most progesterone-binding herbs were not active or were anti-progestogenic in the body (such as pennyroyal). Wild yam (Dioscoria villosa) increased progesterone receptor binding in 20-30% of women, but appeared to suppress progesterone. Researchers concluded that diosgenin, the yam compound used to synthesize progesterone, “did not convert to progesterone in the body.”

In AHA Volume 15: Issue 2, 1999.

REFERENCE: Zava, DT, et al. 1998. Estrogen and progestin bioactivity of foods, herbs, and spices. Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine 217(3):36.




lil dunny
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Re: red clover and licorice anti-progesterone?
March 3 2007, 12:07 AM

so what does it all mean anyway? which types of hormones are we trying to increase? doesn't it seem that different herbs should be taken at different parts of the cycle, depending on own body hormone levels? i think i've just completely confused myself... :-\



anonymous
(no login)
In pure English:
March 3 2007, 10:17 AM

To make it more clear:


The most estrogenic herbs in the study:
Soy bean, licorice, red clover, thyme, turmeric, and hops.

Somewhat less estrogenic herbs:
Bloodroot, yucca, and yellow dock also showed significant hormonal activity.

The herbs that actually had a measurable hormonal effect in the body:
Estrogenic herbs in general, especially soymilk, were active.

Herbs that didn't show up in the saliva hormone test:
Flaxseed and black cohosh didn’t change saliva hormones at all. However, they may work in other ways, perhaps as estrogen precursors. (Flaxseed’s estrogenic compounds are created by flora in the bowel.)

The six most potent common herbs to bind progesterone receptors: Oregano, verbena, turmeric, thyme, red clover, and damania.

Herbs with anti-progesterone activity:
Red clover, licorice, goldenseal, pennyroyal, nutmeg, and mandrake.

Opposite effect than expected:
Most progesterone-binding herbs were not active or were anti-progestogenic in the body (such as pennyroyal). Wild yam increased progesterone receptor binding in 20-30% of women, but appeared to suppress progesterone.

Bad news:
Researchers concluded that diosgenin, the wild yam compound used to synthesize progesterone, did not convert to progesterone in the body. Dong quai (Angelica sinenis) produced very low estradiol and may suppress this type of estrogen.




Myjourney
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Don quai
March 3 2007, 2:32 PM

So...if we are super sensitive we may want to stay away from using extra Don quai for stress...

Thanks for the info...I am "chewing" on it!!!



Moon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: red clover and licorice anti-progesterone?
March 3 2007, 3:39 PM

Interesting, I was researching RC before and I concluded that it wasn't anti-progesteronic... What's puzzling about it is that it binds to progesterone receoeptor, which means that it produces progesteroning effect, but it's as well supposed to be anti-progesteronic. How?
I've read bad news about dong quai before, that it blocks estrogen compleately in some way.





Myjourney
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moon...
March 3 2007, 3:45 PM

Wow!
this is interesting...since many of the brands of NBE include Dong quai in their ingredients!!! (especially some of those cheaper brands??!!!)
What are the implications of that??



anonymous
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Answer to Moon
March 3 2007, 5:14 PM

Quote Moon:
What's puzzling about it is that it binds to progesterone receoeptor, which means that it produces progesteroning effect, but it's as well supposed to be anti-progesteronic. How?
End of quote.

Well, it might stick to the receptor and not actually DO anything, thereby stopping the REAL progesterone to attach to the receptors and be effective.




Moon
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Re: red clover and licorice anti-progesterone?
March 3 2007, 7:05 PM

Anon - I thoguht of that but I thoguht that that wasn't the case, but the thing is that I don't remember well the research I read and sources were kindof inconclusive, I guess I'll look into it some more.

Myjourney - Personally I think that many manufacturers throw every PMS and menopause herb into their pill without actually conducting any experiments on their effects on breast growth or even without any actual knowledge. I read some bad news about black cohoch as well. These are the paragraphs:

Black Cohosh - Research has shown that the root has estrogenic activity and reduces levels of pituitary luteinizing hormone, thereby balancing the ovary's production of progesterone. Such action seems appropriate for treating menopausal symptoms, but using Black Cohosh in NBE is inappropiate.

Dong Quai - Competitively inhibits estradiol binding to estrogen receptors and induces transcription activity in estrogen-responsive cells. It also increases uterine weight and decreases LH (luteinizing hormone) levels. Dong Quai contains Psoralen and bergapten which are photosensitizing and can cause severe photodermatitis. Psoralens are photocarcinogenic and mutagenic. Safrole, a consitituent of the dong quai essential oil, is carcinogenic.



This message has been edited by -Moon- on Mar 3, 2007 7:07 PM





Myjourney
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Blue Coshosh
March 3 2007, 7:13 PM

Moon,
Thanks for the info...

Blue Cohosh is also a uterine tonic, however less strong than Black, I still wouldn't advise anyone to use it long term....Maybe that is the cause of extra bleeding at menses in some???



waxingmoon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: red clover and licorice anti-progesterone?
March 4 2007, 8:22 PM

Moon,
Binding to a receptor is not the same thing as activating it.

Think of it this way. The receptor is the lock and the hormone or herb is the key. In order to get the proper effect (door unlocking) the key must turn. You have probably experienced putting the wrong key in a lock before and being unable to turn it. That is how the anti-progesteronic herbs work. They fit into the key hole but can't turn the lock. They block natural progesterone from that receptor. Red clover and licorice as well as others do not produce any progesterone like activity except they bind to the progesterone receptors. Taking them will lower progesterone activity in the body.

Even if an herb has progesteronic activity, if it has a lower effect than natural progesterone it will not yeild good results because it will block the more potent natural progesterone. It is not just herbs that can cause problems with progesterone. Artificial progesterones (progestins) found in birth control pills also take up progesterone receptors. They do not produce the same effect as natural progesterone.

Some of the estrogenic herbs have a very low estrogen effect. If a person wanted to lower their estrogen, they could take these herbs to block the estrogen receptors from the more potent natural estrogen.

Hope this has been of some help,
waxingmoon




Moon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: red clover and licorice anti-progesterone?
March 4 2007, 11:25 PM

Thanks Waxingmoon, but I actually know all this already to quite some detail, cause I have biochemistry at my uni. I just remeber reading some contradicting info about RG, precisely because of these complex mechanisms that hormones work by many sites give wrong information on what effect a certain herb has in the body, hence the confusion.



This message has been edited by -Moon- on Mar 4, 2007 11:31 PM




waxingmoon
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Re: red clover and licorice anti-progesterone?
March 4 2007, 11:55 PM

Moon,
Didn't mean my post as disrespect to your knowledge. I value your insights. And yeah, I know what you mean about the contradictory and inacurate articles. Check out this article I had posted on the herb section:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/484503/th...rone+herbs

It shows the estrogen and progesterone microgram equivalents of many herbs. Both red clover and licorice have about 3 micrograms of both estrogen and progesterone like components for each 2 grams of dried herb. This would lead one to believe they are both estrogenic and progesteronic, but apparently not. This article states they are progestin antagonists which would lead me to believe they might interfere with some birth control.

The article also states that red clover has a more potent form of estrogen than our natural estrogen. If these herbs and some others are more estrogenic than natural estrogen, wouldn't they easily create estrogen dominance if over-used? Could these overly potent herbs increase the risk of cancer? I worry about this because so many women are of the opinion that is some is good, then more is better.

One other thing the article mentioned was the herb bloodroot. It is the most progesteronic herb (highest amount per 2 grams and greatest binding capacity). I don't recall anyone ever mentioning it as an NBE herb. I will be doing a bit of research on it and see what I can come up with.

waxingmoon



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Bloodroot is BAD
March 5 2007, 4:11 AM

Ok, that didn't take me long:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodroot

Basically, bloodroot is good for nothing but getting rid of warts. It is otherwise a bad news herb that has been responsible for a few deaths when people have mistakenly injested it.

Bad internally, bad externally (destroys skin cells- thus the 'wart' removing action).

Warning, warning, danger Will Robinson (image of robot flailing arms goes here)...

Do not use Bloodroot.

waxingmoon

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Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007 at 10:08 PM Corrie (Login Corrie73)

http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2005/09/08/heh-heh-heh/

This article was written by a lady struggling with infertility, so her perspective is a little different than what we are aiming for here, but the article is very interesting regarding anti-progesterone.

She says that herbs with phytoprogestins like damiana and red clover, actually block progesterone in the body.

This would be bad for us PMS girls who are already low on progesterone. She also seems to make a correlation between low progesterone and infertility (also mentioned on Dr. John Lee's site). So...if she is correct, and damiana and red clover block progesterone, then they would not be good to take, unless one had excess progesterone, something I have not heard of. Also, I wonder if those herbs would counteract the effects of pro-progesterone herbs, like vitex.

I am actually taking damiana, not for NBE specifically, but for low libido, and it has worked wonders for that. So I am not going to quit taking it. But I wonder if it is another mechanism that makes it work for libido, besides the progesterone/estrogen balance. Because I know that I am low-progesterone (since I have had severe PMS and lots of improvement from vitex), so I doubt that lowering my progesterone could be helping me, unless the damiana is helping me in some completely different way.

I was thinking of taking red clover in my new program that I'll be starting soon, but now I think I may just stick to fenugreek and saw palmetto (in addition to the other herbs I already take, like vitex and damiana).

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.




Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007, 10:21 PM

Here is another point about this:

I was just reading the discussion about libido on the vitex thread and this occured to me. IF it were true that vitex lowers libido AND it were true that damiana raised libido THEN we could say that:

higher progesterone = lower libido
lower progesterone = higher libido

UNLESS something other than the estrogen/progesterone activity of the herbs was accounting for their effects on libido.

The alternate names for the herbs are kind of interesting:

Vitex = chaste tree berry
Damiana = turnera aphrodisiaca

I, for one, am actually taking both of these herbs now. (Damiana for libido and vitex for pms.)



Corrie
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More evidence of this...
January 4 2007, 10:34 PM

Saw Palmetto is said to be both estrogenic and anti-progesterone...AND it is said to increase libido in women.



Moon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007, 10:40 PM

The link unfortunately doesn't work for me.
I think you got your answer, red clover probably wouldn't be good for you. I dunno if you are right on the progesterone libido relationship, but usually things are a lot more complex than that, still some simplifications are sometimes remotely accurate and useful for orientation. I actually thought that I might be too high on progesterone, or at least 'progesterone dominant' eg high progesterone compared to estrogen, that would be the same as estrogen defficient and it's the most common imballance. Maybe lowering progesterone a little to smooth out that dominance is beneficial, even if one doesn't have extremely excessive progesterone. I wonder though if red clover binds only the body's progesterone or also the sintetic progesterone in BCP, which is a very strong one.



violet
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007, 11:04 PM

Definitely a very interesting article.

From what I've read prior to starting NBE and choosing my routine:
Libido depends of many factors, progesterone doesn't lower one's libido, in fact, when you raise progesterone, dopamine levels tend to be raised as well. Dopamine is responsible for feelings of well being and excitement. Libido also depends on testosterone, not only in men but in women as well. That's why vitex may lower ,increase or simply do not affect one's libido, vitex balances the ratio between estrogen and progesterone, also may have an anti-androgenic effect and lower prolactin levels when they're in excess.



sunrise
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wild yam & libido
January 5 2007, 3:26 AM

I think wild yam is very effective in increasing libido. I am actually not inclined to take it since I don't have a partner! LOL!