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Different herbs for different parts of cycle?
January 8 2007 at 10:54 PM Corrie (Login Corrie73)

Since we've had so much discussion about hormones and imbalances, I am starting to wonder if it might be beneficial to take estrogen promoting herbs during the follicular part of the cycle (day 1 to ovulation) and progesterone promoting herbs during the luteal cycle (ovulation to menstruation). Does anyone think that's a good idea? I wonder if this would work, or if it would be detrimental to certain herbs like vitex that are supposed to be taken long term for best results?




Surf
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EVE MEMBERS
Re: Different herbs for different parts of cycle?
January 9 2007, 12:09 AM

I've been thinking about the same thing for a while now!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Customizing the herbs you take according to where you are in your cycle. I'm not sure if it would be beneficial or detrimental. Would it help with NBE to have a consistent level of estrogen or should it naturally increase and decline with our cycles? And progestrone, and ... ?????



Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Exactly!
January 9 2007, 2:01 AM

The reason I have started wondering about this is because about a week ago I decided to take a short break from all of the phytoestrogenic herbs. I continued taking some of the other herbs though, like vitex (for PMS), damiana (for libido) and wild yam and saw palmetto (just because). I figured that with vitex and wild yam, they are not actually estrogenic or progesteronic(?), but that they encourage your body to make the hormones it needs. Therefore, continuing them would be good for PMS, hormone balancing, etc. And maybe NBE too! With saw palmetto, I understand that it is not a phytoestrogen either, and that it works best with long-term use, so I didn't want to take a break from it yet. I simply stopped the high doses of fenugreek and fennell that I was taking. AND, I feel like I am growing just as well, if not better now than I was before! Especially since I was stalling. I plan to add fenugreek back into my program in low doses, and ramp up I guess, on day 1 of my cycle, which should be in about 1 more week or so. But this really has me wondering if we should be taking high doses of phytoestrogens during the first part of the cycle when the body is high in estrogen anyways, and high doses of the progesterone-type herbs during the last half of the cycle when progesterone dominates in the body. Maybe one of us should try it as a guinea pig!



mark
(Login sunnyMark)
Re: Different herbs for different parts of cycle?
January 9 2007, 10:57 AM

this sounds interesting, i've been taking wonderup which contains fennel and fenugreek among other things and my boobs grow mainly during the last two weeks of my cycle. now i'm so confused that i don't know if this supports your theory or goes against it?



Moon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Different herbs for different parts of cycle?
January 9 2007, 1:55 PM

I've seen routines that change throughout the cycle, if I remeber corectly they were devised so that the doses increased towards the end, I dunno why. But I'm curious why did you put estrogenic herbs in the first part of the cycle and progesteronic in the second (as progesterone is high in the second and estrogen in first and second)? I thought wild yam was progesteronic, but I'm not sure.

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herbs on a 2 weeks on/2 weeks off schedule?
February 26 2007 at 9:23 PM lil dunny (Login lil_dunny)

i know pueraria mirifica is recommended to be taken on such a routine. has anybody tried to take herbs (non-PM) on this schedule? does that work well? which herbs were you taking?




Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
herbs on a 2 weeks on/2 weeks off schedule?
February 27 2007, 12:46 AM

Hi lil dunny,

If anyone ever does something like that, it would be good to target the exact two weeks (maybe three) to do, not just simply the first two weeks and the last two weeks. The idea being to make use of the absense of estrogen and progesterone during weeks 4, 1, the rise of estrogen beginning in the latter part of week 1, and the rise in progesterone starting in the latter part of week 2.

Additionally, some form of cycling would also be in order to follow the estrogen curve and progesterone curve. So, you would be taking fenugreek and wild yam (for example) in two separate cycles while ramping each with their respective hormone. It would look something like this:

Given a 28 day cycle, and depending on starting size, weight, etc., ramp fenugreek from 0mg on day 5 to 4000mg on day 14, then down to 2000 until day 18 then ramp quickly to zero by day 22. Ramp Wild Yam from 0mg on day 11 to 4000mg on day 20 until day 23, then ramp to 0 by day 28. Saw Palmetto would remain constant at 1500mg. Borage oil - one gram each night. Take a good multivitamin that also contains a B complex. Massage with something estrogenic like fenugreek extract and EPO or Borage, with heat, should take place no less than once per day continuous. Take 0mg on day 14. This will help keep the cycle on track.

My 2 cents,

Wahaika




Anonymous
(Login lil_dunny)
Re: herbs on a 2 weeks on/2 weeks off schedule?
February 27 2007, 8:03 AM

thank you for the detailed answer. it does make sense though this approach would certainly make the whole process that much more complicated, especially since the exact effect of many herbs is uncertain. hmmm....



lil dunny
(Login lil_dunny)
Re: herbs on a 2 weeks on/2 weeks off schedule?
February 27 2007, 7:59 PM

what attracts me about this schedule is the fact that (theoretically anyway) i wouldn't need to take longer breaks - hopefully the two weeks off everything each month will give my system enough of a clean break to continue afresh with the new cycle.
any more thoughts, anyone?



lil dunny
(Login lil_dunny)
Re: herbs on a 2 weeks on/2 weeks off schedule?
February 28 2007, 10:27 PM

interestingly, Breastfest had similar thoughts about this kind of a routine...
perhaps she would be able to comment? i wonder what it is she read



Breastfest
(Login Breastfest)
reasons...
March 3 2007, 8:28 PM

Hi lil dunny,
For starters, I must tell you that not everything I do has a real scientific basis. Sometimes, I just "feel the need"!!

Anyway, as I have been researching and reading, I have been thinking about PM and the normal hormone cycle. It seems that the most positive results have been coming from adding phytoestrogens. PM is a pretty potent phytoestrogen from what I can tell and they recommend a 15 day rest period. So, putting those two thoughts together, I thought I would try to work with my body's estrogen cycle and only add the phytos when I would normally be upcycling. Wahaika was right on the money when she gave a breakdown of the days. There is a pretty good chart at
http://www.womentowomen.com/images/menst...060809.gif
So, that's the thinking. I don't know if I will be successful at it at this point, but my fingers are crossed that I hit onto something.

Feel free to respond. We're all in this together!



Surf
(Login Surf.)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: herbs on a 2 weeks on/2 weeks off schedule?
March 3 2007, 9:07 PM

The idea of varying herbs with your cycle has been mentioned before on the forum. I am very curious about this and am beginnning to think I might try it.

Has anyone been doing this for any length of time with success?



Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
herbs on a 2 weeks on/2 weeks off schedule?
March 7 2007, 4:20 AM

ehem......he.

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Tried Varying Herbs With Cycle
March 10 2007 at 4:39 AM Corrie (Login Corrie73)

Hi Everyone, here is an update on what happened to me when I attempted to vary my herbs throughout my cycle, in order to support/increase estrogen in the follicular phase and support/increase progesterone during the luteal phase.

Basically, I ramped up fenugreek and damiana (both phytoestrogens) during days 1-14. Then, during days 15-28, I ramped down the phytoestrogens, and ramped up vitex and wild yam (pro-progesterone herbs). (I took saw palmetto at the same level throughout the month.)

I thought this would be a great plan, but it felt like an emotional rollercoaster. During days 1-14, I was emotional and weepy, signs of high estrogen. Then, during days 15-28, my PMS was worse than it's been since I started taking vitex, several months ago. This is weird, because you'd think that the progesterone-supportive herbs would prevent this, but I think it was the wild yam that did it. For some reason, wild yam never seems to agree with me.

So, I have decided to abandon the cycle-customized herb plan, and on day 1 of my new cycle, I started a very simple plan of fenugreek, saw palmetto, damiana and vitex.

Actually, I have found that damiana doesn't agree with me as well during week 4, probably because it suppresses progesterone, and therefore makes PMS worse. So during weeks 3 and 4, I take a little less damiana and a little more vitex, to prevent PMS. I've been doing this all along and it seems to work.

I hope this helps anyone who is thinking of creating a plan that changes during the month. There's been some talk about that on this board. It sounded great to me, but didn't work so well for me in practice.

Good luck to all!




Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Tried Varying Herbs With Cycle
March 10 2007, 5:47 AM

Hey,

I was thinking of try something similar, but I suspected such a program would not work. You mentioned that the vitex did not help— that is because vitex is a slow-acting herb, and may take a couple of months or more to take effect. Taking vitex during the second half of your cycle will do nothing, because it hadn't had enough time to adjust and influence the pituitary gland; even if it did, it would have to spend time undoing the effects of the phytoestrogens. Your plan to reduce your damiana intake during the second part of the cycle, and increase your vitex intake sounds about right.

-------------------------
Those who cannot remember the past will spend a lot of time looking for their cars in mall parking lots. -- Jay Trachman




Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Tried Varying Herbs With Cycle
March 10 2007, 6:35 PM

Hi Moonkissed --

Actually, I have been taking vitex for three or four months now, and it normally works great to prevent PMS. But I notice that if I take too much damiana during weeks 3 and 4, that it counteracts the vitex, to some extent. I guess this is because damiana suppresses progesterone, and low progesterone during the luteal phase is a cause of PMS, as I understand it. I am taking the damiana more for libido than for NBE, although I feel that it does help with NBE too. It works great for libido, so I don't want to quit taking it, but I have been ramping it down during weeks 3 and 4, and ramping vitex up during those weeks, and I take vitex the rest of the month too.

I am just going to stick to a very basic program for now. It seems to be working, gradually. My only issue is that I am also gaining weight, probably from the fenugreek, saw palmetto, and extra food and protein shakes. So, yes, my boobs are bigger, but my butt is now a DD! And my tummy and thighs are looking more curvy too. I am hoping that I can keep this all over voluptuousness in check by working out at the gym, but I've been so busy, I can hardly get in there more than once or twice a week. So, I may have to change my program if I keep gaining weight.

Good luck growing!





Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Tried Varying Herbs With Cycle
March 10 2007, 9:26 PM

Hello Corrie,

I have a TON of questions for you if you have the time to answer them. But for now I only have 2 questions:

* How long did you do your routine?

* Aside from the emotional rollercoaster you get any growth or signs of growth from it?

Thanks,

Wahaika





Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Tried Varying Herbs With Cycle
March 11 2007, 3:00 AM

Hi Wahaika --

First let me say that I really respect the knowledge and experience you bring to this forum. I find it enormously helpful.

To answer your questions:

1) I only tried the phase-specific routine for 1 month. I just couldn't take the moodiness; since I tend to be moody anyways, it was just too much for me. I actually have to customize my routine according to my tendency to be moody, thus the vitex and damiana ramping.

This was not my first month of NBE, however. I started in October, so I've had these herbs in my system for 5-6 months now. What I did do differently during that cycle (last month), was to ramp up fenugreek and damiana during weeks 1 and 2, and then ramp them down during weeks 3 and 4, while ramping up vitex and wild yam. (I still took a smaller amount of vitex during weeks 1 and 2, and took saw palmetto throughout the cycle.)


2) I do not feel that I grew any better on this routine than other months, but I don't think it hurt my growth either. It seems like it might be workable for someone who wasn't as moody as me, or wasn't particularly sensitive to herbs in any way.

Actually, it occurred to me that if I just keep a very simple routine of fenugreek and saw palmetto, along with damiana and vitex, for libido and PMS, respectively, as well as for NBE, that I would probably grow fine, albeit gradually. This is what gave me my initial growth in my first couple of months, and I didn't start thinking about other programs until I stalled out, in the third month or so, probably from taking fenugreek at too high levels.

This month, I went back onto that simple program, and I feel that my growth is moving along again, although I am quite concerned about my weight gain...I weighed myself today and I've gained nearly 10 pounds since starting NBE. However, I am definitely a C cup now, which I am very happy with, so if I can just get into the gym more often and tone up, and not continue to gain weight, then I will just live with these 10 extra pounds; it's worth it to me for the boobs. If I do continue to gain weight, then I'll have to modify my routine, changing to fennel and nettle root. However, I suspect these herbs aren't as strong, so I'd like to avoid that if possible.

I hope this answers your questions.

Thanks,
Corrie