[gogirlanime]

Hello all my busty beauties I have missed you all I recently got a blood test from my doctor and unfortunately I still have too much estrogen in my body to begin my NBE. My doctor recommends that I take vitex for another 6 months (July 12th will mark that day and then I can start NBE)

Here is the awesome thing though, my breasts have grown 2 inches even though I've been losing weight!

I think taking the vitex to balance myself has brought my excess estrogen down so now my boobs are growing because I have the right amount of estrogen in my body

I have also lost 40 pounds since I was last here I have another 60 to lose and if my boobs don't stay at a D cup (I don't think they will ) I will be doing NBE

Some questions: (please and thank you)

I've tried PM and I've just come to the conclusion that my body does not like it no matter how little of a dosage I start out with I always get excess estrogen (or in my last case estrogen dominance) and I have to stop right away. I tried FG & SP together and that seemed to be working I took 3,000mg of FG and 320mg of concentrated Saw Palmetto. I saw an inch of growth in two weeks!

1. What is the deal with Fennel? I keep reading that it actually grows breast tissue instead of storing fat. I've heard rumors that when you take Fennel you don't have to take it or other herbs to maintain your size once you reach goal. How much is recommended a day to take? Does it grow breast tissue better than other herbs or does it have the same effects as FG, PM, etc? Has anyone had good success with Fennel or Fennel instead of FG?

2. I have read here the following:
A. One potential risk is that dong quai has been found to stimulate the growth of breast cancer cells (estrogen receptor-positive and negative) in test tube studies.
B. Fenugreek contains a compound called diosgenin. In laboratories, diosgenin can be converted to estrogen and progesterone but that same conversion doesn't occur naturally in the body.
C. Used in the brewing of beer, hops contain a potent phytoestrogen called 8-prenylnaringenin which has 0.2-20% the potency of estradiol, the main human estrogen.
D. (Just for fun) We don't know why saw palmetto would work as a bust-enhancer. There is no scientific evidence linking DHT or testosterone levels from saw palmetto with breast enlargement. (naive )
E. [Wild Yam] Diosgenin can be converted to estrogen and progesterone, but it must be done in a lab because the human body can't convert it on its own.

How valid are these statements? Especially B and E this person is suggesting that our bodies cannot make use of the phytohormones in Wild Yam and Fenugreek?

3. Has anyone had good success getting NBE adding maca to their regiment? I am currently taking maca with my vitex to help give my body extra DHEA production for a bigger butt. Does maca interfere with NBE? I figure it would because it is an adaptogen and will help the body create more DHEA and DHEA adapts to create more estrogen or testosterone in the body depending on what it needs. So if you take for example PM with maca wouldn't the maca balance your hormones making the phytoestrogen in the PM neutralized and useless? Has anyone had good success with maca and it not interfering with NBE, can you get butt and boob growth at the same time with this method?

4. It is always important to take an aromatase when doing NBE correct? Is 3,000mg of EPO a good way to keep progesterone at a healthy range when taking strong phytoestrogens? I don't want to become estrogen dominant again.

5. I keep reading that Wild Yam is undetermined, is it an aromatase or a phytoestrogen (does it give your body more progesterone or estrogen) no doctors or people on the internet seem to agree with it, why is it included into the FG, SP, WY program? Is it used as the aromatase or a second phytoestrogen in this program?

Thank you!!

[Isabelle]

Hi Gogirlanime,

Congratulations with the weight loss. Fat cells produce estrogen. So losing more weight will help you get rid of estrogen dominance.

I have numbered my answers:

1. Fennel is a phyto-progestin, and it increases prolactin. Most people who use it use it together with fenugreek. In a teenage girl, it takes the estrogens years to lengthen the milk ducts, before progesterone develops glands and areolas to round the breasts out, and prolactin causes swelling. So use it towards the end of your program, not in the beginning. 500 mg is more than enough.

2.
A. All phyto-estrogens grow estrogen sensitive cancer cells in test tubes. It's the standard test to prove that an herb is estrogenic. Nothing to worry about, unless you already have breast cancer. Then stop all dietary estrogens immediately.
B. Yet increases in serum progesterone and prolactin were measured in people who took diosgenin orally.
C. Xanthohumol in hops digests to more 8-prenylnaringenin. Before digestion, there is up to 10 times more xanthohumol than 8-prenylnaringenin in hops.
D. The anterior pituitary gland keeps the total amount of sex steroids constant. So if there is no DHT, there is room for more estrogens and progesterone.
E. See my answer to B. It does increase progesterone and prolactin, even though that probably doesn't happen through direct chemical conversion.

3. Maca helps NBE. Testosterone is made from DHEA, and estrogens are made from testosterone. It helped me grow, but my butt only improved in shape, not much in inches.

4. Don't take an aromatase inhibitor in NBE. Use fenugreek to increase progesterone. That restores the balance with estrogen. If fenugreek is not enough, add fennel.

Aromatase is an enzyme in your body that makes estrogens from testosterone. You can not "take an aromatase". What you can take is an aromatase inhibitor. That blocks your body's aromatase, so testosterone can't get close to it.

5. Wild yam contains diosgenin, so it increases progesterone and prolactin, like fenugreek. Secondly, wild yam contains β-Sitosterol, which is an anti-androgen. Thirdly, wild yam inhibits the metabolism of estrone to 16α-hydroxyestrone, which means it slows the breakdown of your body's own estrogens to useless stuff.

[gogirlanime]

Thank you so so much Isabelle I hope I can be just as knowledgable soon so I can "take the weight off" of answering some questions for new members from ya

[lled34aa]

wow. so much knowledge. thanks so much!

isabelle, can you think of any reason why no matter how much PM i take (and i've tried many different brands of PM), i don't seem to get any symptoms of estrogen dominance. i've tried PM by itself, varying the dosage, PM with herbs, PM with maca... etc... i've grown a little bit in the past year, but i'm just puzzled when i hear so many girls on here can't tolerate PM, yet i've tried in the upwards of 2g of PM a day in the past just to see what would happen and nothing!

also, is it normal to experience lowered libido when taking hops?

[Isabelle]

Hi lled,

First of all, yes, hops lowers libido, because it's a Central Nervous System depressant, because it's a phyto-estrogen, and because it's an anti-androgen. I balance it with maca and oats, and that works.

The obvious reason why PM would not work for you is mochaccino's observation:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41168#pid41168
The cosupplementation study she refers to is linked seven posts higher up in my program thread. The phyto-estrogens in soy, hops, and flax are not the really active ones. They have to be digested to more active phyto-estrogens. While the researchers were assigning people to test groups for a study on cosupplementation of soy, hops, and flax, they found that many people did not have the intestinal bacteria needed to digest the phyto-estrogens to really active estrogens. Moreover, they found that if you don't have the bacteria to digest hops, that doesn't mean you don't have the bacteria to digest soy or flax, and the other way round.

I tried soy, red clover, and many other isoflavone herbs before I found hops worked for me.

Unfortunately, there is no similar study for PM. But there is doubt that miroestrol is the really active phyto-estrogen in PM:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/np990547v

If hops doesn't work, you can still try flax and soy. Or try them together, like in Eve M's program.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Gogirlanime,

Hey so glad to see you back.. congrats on your weightloss and tita grow..sometimes just not doing anything much makes it work.. Thank you for asking those questions, that took alot of thinking and typing and well written..thank you very much.. you asked everything I was thinking about especially Wild Yam.. Thank you as usual Isabelle for the answers.. I am thinking for me reaching premenopause WY would be good ..you mention it blocks estrone which can be high at my age and especially women in menopause but you mention this "which means it slows the breakdown of your body's own estrogens to useless stuff" what do you mean useless stuff..meaning the good estrogen goes to waste?.. anyway I have be taking low WY again today and the cream too and took 1 PM no maca going to stop maca for now again but so far when I take the WY and cream I feel so much better..my neck pain is much better and my thinking and energy is better..so I am going to do WY and PM together and see how that goes..only small amounts of PM for short times and then maybe add in 2nd cycle GR or FG not sure..sadly I cant take hops or even touch it..dad said he will use it he said like Isabelle it has good stuff for your body..well of cause not me..I cant use alfalfa either ..everytime it also makes my rash worse and other things..

I wish you the best girl..so glad your doing better even though your estrogen is still high..

[Isabelle]

Hi Susan,

The body metabolizes estrone to 16α-hydroxyestrone and to 2-hydroxyestrone. Neither of them is estrogenic, that's what I mean by "useless". This also means your body has to make estrogens continually to make up for the loss.

WY blocks the way to 16α-hydroxyestrone. So you lose estrogens slower. I agree WY is a good one for peri-menopause, because hormones can go up or down fast at this time, and WY, like licorice, affects all four main NBE hormones: the diosgenin increases progesterone and prolactin, the β-sitosterol is an anti-androgen, and estrogens increase because estrone is not broken down to 16α-hydroxyestrone.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle,

Well I am going to stick with WY cause I am so far feeling better each day..I dont know if you new that WY helps DHEA..either you told me or I know I read it somewhere.... I am doing PM, WY, going to stop PC till 2nd cycle unless needed (will play by ear) and taking supps to support skin, hair, joints etc..this is more important then the tita growth..but do want some good size ones..I think as we both said in the past balance is the key well with some extra to get the growth but not to go over the top no pun intended and wack the hormones to where you put a halt to everything especially health.. and Gogirl is doing it right too making sure her health is good first.. sorry Gogirl for rambling on and taking over your thread..

Thank you Isabelle..

How are you doing Gogirl..let me guess doing a ton of reading..