09-09-2012, 17:12
ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX.
April 21 2008 at 9:48 PM jackie (Login classyfashh)
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Seriously, I'm on my 2nd month and like 7 days of taking Vitex and it's making me like REALLY crabby lately. I thought the first 1 and 3/4 of months were doing good but I'm not even on my period anymore and I seriously can't take this, I am getting so mad at everything. And I'm also very anxious randomly. Not only that but before even taking Vitex my boobs NEVER swelled up on my period. Now they constantly do. It's like the opposite though. I'm not as mean on my period anymore but the rest of the month I'm psychotic. I seriously just want to give up. And I don't know why my veins seem to me more clear and visible in my boobs. Is this all a bad sign and should I stop? Or is it possibly a sign of it working? UGHHHHHH !!!!!!! NBE is really screwing with my head now hahahah
Author Reply
sandy
(Login sandy111)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 21 2008, 10:08 PM
I really would like to know what the breast swelling before the period means
is it normal? It happened to me before and i am not on a any herb , i feel the same feeling as if i was on herbs.Is that a kind of estrogen dominace.I used to feel that at the begining of my program when i was introducing extra estrogen.what's going on?
Sorry Jackie for posting here but my question is a little bit like yours about the swelling.
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 3:53 AM
I *think* it might be a good sign. Because in my teens I used to get cycle sweeling all the time but only in my boobs. I was quite well endowed back then (at the time weighed 90-lbs but had an overflowing D cup). If it happened back when i was nothing but boobs, I don't see how it could be a bad thing. So I guess maybe it means there is a good blood supply and hormone activity going on in that area? Just a theory.
Anyone know?
Hopeul88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 4:02 AM
Hm from what I've read in te past cycle swellin relates to estrogen dominance for sure. Andthe month long PMSing would in my opinion also be related to high estrogen levels. Maybe its just the vitex still trying to help your body balance out? or you could just be having a bad month. Hang in there and see how things go in your next cycle I guess, good luck!
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 6:37 AM
I've heard that vitex often temporarily worstens period cramps but ultimately it improves them hugely, so it could apply to other period/hormonal symptoms as well. It's very known that vitex is a slow herb that only reaches its full potential of action at 5, 6 months, so I think it may be worth enduring the temporary hormonal blow, but I guess it depends on how severe it is. Certainly the further in you are, the more of a loss it would be to stop.
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 2:48 PM
Moon, what are your thoughts on the swelling issue? is it a good sign to start having cycle swelling in the boobs? I'm starting to get this again now that I'm on WU. I didn't get this with single herbs though. Makes me wonder what it means.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 4:46 PM
I'm really not sure on the swelling issue. Sweling has been reported to precede growth on NBE. It's also a constant phenomenon at some women while they are not on NBE and not growing. And it's also a PMS symptom. The question is whether this is all the same swelling, or is the growth related swelling limited to boobs only and different in cause and mechanism than the PMS related swelling which might be whole body swelling or bloating? The PMS / estrogen domanance swelling is a conscequence of high estrogen to progesterone ratio and this probably isn't good for NBE. I've never had a milimenter of lutheal swelling, I wonder if this means somehting?
One thing that we can explain is vitex induced swelling - it's a conscequence of the transistent hormonal blow that vitex causes because it opens up the estrogen receptors, so you have a sudden increase in estrogenic activity conscequentially followed by worsening of related symptoms, but eventually this balances out because the progesteron boost starts to kick in.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 5:38 PM
"I've never had a milimenter of lutheal swelling, I wonder if this means somehting? "
Same for me, and I often think about what this means. My guess is, considering the estrogen dominance ladies get it, that we're the kind that don't have enough estrogen? makes sense with me and all my excess androgens bleh.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 6:44 PM
Hopeful - definitely agree! I am quite certain I am estrogen defficient. I'm getting an idea how to explain the good and the bad swelling - swelling could be the conscequence not precisely of high estrogen to progesterone ratio, but simply of high estrogen - so estrogen dominance as well as a healthy cycle, and it would also increase when you increase the levels of estrogen with a more estrogenic program.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 7:32 PM
Hm interesting... and I guess the reason I didn't get any swelling even while on BCPs was because those deal with ovaries' hormone levels right? this definitely makes me tempted to take a bunch of estrogenic herbs (even red clover) but seriously I'm still dealing with new red marks on my fac from that damn fenugreek. So i've been taking it easy, with just SP, hops, fennel when I remember, multivitamin, teas... I would rather have clear skin than trying to grow bigger boobs right now. Oh well, back to getting my tan on
so glad summer is here
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 8:24 PM
Hopeful - I don't have any facts to support it, but I've been thinking that galactogogues maybe aren't good for estrogen deficiency and that purely estrogenic herbs are more suitable - soy, red clover. It's just a hunch tho. But if you've had a reaction to FG I'd definitely subsitute it.
hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 10:50 PM
yeah I think I agree... ok when I muster up the strength to do more NBE stuff again I think I am definitely going with the soy or red clover. best wishes
jackie
(Login classyfashh) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 10:57 PM
Ohkay cool. I'll keep taking them for another 3 months but it's making me like suicidally depressed. Haha minus the suicidal thing but I hope this doesn't leave me like this permanently.
EEEEK. It feels like it's RAISING my estrogen levels which isn't what I'm supposed to be doing.
Ugh.
And I can't stop eating chocolate. That's bad too but whatever
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 12:29 AM
so then wouldn't using progesterone cream just during those first few months counteract the vitex symptoms? Also wondering why is it that when I took fenugreek as a single herb at only 1000mg I had acne from it. but taking 4-6 WU a day (which contains fenugreek extract) I don't get acne at all.
hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 12:32 AM
I got bad acne from fenugreek in the past too but have no idea why the WU didn't...
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 1:02 AM
hopeful did you try WU? did you get acne with it? I really don't understand why but WU has a good amount of fenugreek extract in it and I don't get acne on that. But if I take even a low dose of the single herb I do get acne. And I mean I had it BAAAAAAD! It was disgusting.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 4:30 AM
No I never tried WU, maybe someday, and yes before when I was taking a low dose of the fenugreek too. Let me know if you come with a possible reason why that is because I have no clue. good luck!
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 5:33 AM
the only thing I can think of is that it is in a different form. It is extract in WU. But it seems like it would be the same thing. Comes from the same part of the plant. I did take saw palmetto with the FG and still got the acne. I didn't get acne with any other herb I tried, only FG. The only thing that helped some was pumpkin seed oil but I still had acne, just not as bad. Or maybe there is an ingredient in WU that counteracts the acne? i don't know what some of the herbs are.
Could it be I just finally got used to it and just happened to be at the same time I started WU? Maybe I should try the powdered herbs again for a week or so just to see if I get it again. I am really intreged now. But not sure it is worth the breakout.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 5:47 AM
You and me have too many similarties with this case
I took SP with the fenugreek too and it didn't help but I general I loveee my SP, it totally stops my acne (I would get painful deep ones)
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 6:22 AM
-Moon- : about what we were discussing before, I was reading online about estrogen dificiencies and from what I read taking more potant estrogenic herbs (like say red clover, black cohosh, etc) is actually not that beneficial because its causing our bodies own barely there estrogen to be knocked out with the phytos. Ultimately, even if the phytos do help give us more estrogen it will really only bring us up to a normal range which will not give growth or give just a little.
So what we are supposed to do is take herbs that nourish a woman's own hormone system... so seems like vtex would be good I'm just scared by balancing its going to give me more acne once again
what I'm also wondering is how long have I been producing less estrogen? my whole life since puberty? how come i still developed a girly figure (minus the boobs), a very feminine face, high feminine voice... shouldnt these things along with my breasts have failed to form? or was it perhaps the bit of estrogen i produced went to forming those things but there just wasn't enough for the breasts? so unfortunate...
so which route should i take... soy &/or red clover... or vitex... hm...
This message has been edited by Hopeful88 on Apr 23, 2008 6:42 AM
This message has been edited by Hopeful88 on Apr 23, 2008 6:34 AM
This message has been edited by Hopeful88 on Apr 23, 2008 6:25 AM
chasteberry
(no login) vitex alone April 23 2008, 7:02 AM
i'm new to this forum and relieved to know someone else is having complications with vitex. i'm taking vitex along with full potential, saw palmetto, royal jelly, gelatine and multivitamins. i feel great most of the time except when i'm ovulating, i go absolutely insane!! i almost break up with my boyfriend every month. also my sex drive is up the wall but my growth seems to slow down. i wonder if the combination is wrong. i started my routine in january and grew about half a cup size since but also gained around my hips(boo). can anyone give me some advice?
fengshui
(Login fengshuiTW)
SENIOR MEMBER sorry about this O/T and stupid question.... April 23 2008, 7:28 AM
I have been wondering......really stupid......
What's the difference between "hips" and "butt"?
Checked the English/Chinese dictionary, it means the same in Chinese........
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 9:18 AM
About the acne on FG alone, the only sensible explanation that occurs to me is that WU has a good formula that somehow prevents acne. I think I might mail Vortex and ask them, I am curious what in their formula lowers androgens. They did once say they didn't include SP because it wasn't necessary, so there must be sth else.
I'm also not so sure about my theory that galactogogues wouldn't be good for estrogen deficiency anymore, cause then WU wouldn't have such a high success rate. Sorry for confusing everyone. :p
Hopeful - Do you have the link to where you read that? I'm not sure I believe in the whole competition theory, because then NBE makes zero sense - we grow by diminishing the estrogenic actions in our body. In this case, any herb, the strong ones and the weak ones would diminish it. But whether it really comes to competition depends on the number of receptors relative to hormones. And I would like to know if the competition theory takes that into account, which I don't know. If there are a lot more receptors than hormones, then competition would be virtually nonexistent and herbs would only add the the overall estrogenic action in the body. This certainly agrees the practical experience NBE gave us - you grow on an optimal dose, which means the best added action/competition ration. At too high doses of herbs, we cause too much competition and stall.
I too have thoguht of taking vitex, I actually already have two bottles in reserve and I will probably take it in the fall/winter. Am kinda anxious about the hormonal blow. And then again, I don't think I'm progesterone deficient, at least not on BCP, I did have PMS and some other symptoms while off it. But I know of at least 1 member (Lisa121) that was estrogen deficient and took vitex and she said it was good for her, it cleared up her acne, improved her periods/PMS and she said she was growing on it very slowly too. She didn't report the estrogenic hormonal blow and I've actually been thinking that us estrogen defficient girls might not get that on vitex, since we lack it and have a better estrogen/progesteron ration than estrogen dominant. But Kieyah's suggestion to take PC sounds sensible for anyone that gets it, but I'd asjk some expwert what they think. It is an unusual combination after all.
Again I'm exactly like you in this Hopeful - feminine figure minus boobs, girly voice etc. I have no idea what sort of hormonal profile produces that, but one clue for estrogen deficiency might be when you stoped growing in hight, as estrogen closes the growth plates in the bones. Girls are not supposed to grow for a long time after they get their period, I grew till I was 18,19 I think.
Fengshui - butt are only the buttox, the muscle (gluteus maximus) and hips are the whole area arround and arround, or the sides especially, so reffering the pelvis. I'm not a native English speaker tho so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
Zuri
(no login) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 10:29 AM
Has any of the girls who got acne on their routines tried Evening Primrose Oil? I used to take it some years ago alone just to help me get a clearer skin and it was very very helpful! Moreover it is supposed to help with boobie growth as it contains essential fatty acids.
Regarding what Hopeful said that potent phytoestrogens may cause our body to eventually be less responsive to producing estrogen on its own, I remember I also read this recently, on a site saying about Maca. Maca is supposed to help with hormonal balance by nourishing the hormonal glands. Here is the link to the site:
http://www.natural-progesterone-estrogen...rmones.htm
It's under the title Treating Hormonal Deficiency with MacaActive Supplements
jackie
(Login classyfashh) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 10:47 AM
What are we even talking about now I'm confused.
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 4:36 PM
Sorry Jackie I know we highjacked your thread!
-Moon- this is the site: http://www.natural-hormones.net/treatments.htm it has relatively the same info as the site Zuri posted under alternatve medicine (on both pages). The fact that they are very similar makes me think mayeb they are bogus? But then we have heard about Maca before so maybe they are telling the correct info... I wonder why waxingoon started taking maca in the first place...
Anyways I see your point about NBE not making sense then, they are probably wrong or something... so which do you think is the better route to take strong phytos or just the vitex?
Oh an I did not grow till I was in my late teens like you. I only grew up till I got my period (age 12) and that was it. Height wise (luckily I was one of the tallest in my classes than at 5"5) stayed the same, as well as hairyness and boobs obviously... it all started just before my period and nothing ever progressed more than that. Actually the only thing that has is my god awful acne problems! I had since my period maybe an occasional pimple no big deal, it wasn't until I was 17 that my acne got really bad and became all painful and deep... and left me with all these awful red marks that I try desperately to cover up with makeup everyday *sigh*
Lisa121
(no login) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 6:10 PM
Hi girls, hi Moon, thought I would chip in and tell a bit how it went with me so far. I havent been around much lately, just so busy and not been doing the NBE thing for a while. More concentrating on my weight gain, but am happy to report I am keeping it kind of steady around the 52 kg mark, which is what I started off with, and got bigger boobs with that too (small A cup :-) ), so not really complaining.
I started Vitex in August, September? Not exactly sure, but took a two week break from it just 1 1/2 weeks ago just to give my body and myself a little breather.
As for the estrogenic symptoms, lately I have actually started to get that pre-menstrual swelling too, and some other weird stuff I havent had before either. The weird thing is, which I didnt get before, at least I cant remember, that the night before I get my days now I get night sweats, I mean soaking through everything, and hot and cold flushes these past four months. Then, like clockowrk, the next night my days arrive. How weird is that? Also, where I ate some chocolate during my period before, these past months since taking vitex that craving and started like a week before. I am really no chocolate eater, so that is a bit strange. Does that sound estrogenic?
Generally I feel quite good besides that, it helps my moods, my acne is better even though not gone completely (am only taking 400 mg versus 800 mg a day at the moment though, may ramp up again, I will have to see) and generally my mood is so much better than it ever was on the pill, and without anything it is just plain hell!!!
Since coming off the pill my cycle was a bit off, before I took it (like 10 years ago) it was bang on 28 days. The Vitex has stablised that again I think I am now around 30 days and it has helped with period pains, even though they were still quite bad about two months ago, they have gotten better now. So, it really seems to take its time to work.
So, I think it helps with the overdose of testosterone, even though it hasnt gotten rid of it all it seems (still sweaty and some acne) but I never expected wonders and not in such a short time. Also I read that it can take up to two years of treatment in combo with SP or Nettle, so I may add the Nettle again soon as well, I am just so pill taking tired at the moment that I barely manage to swallow the one Vitex a day.
I will just keep going like this just now, my guess is it will balance it out in the end, I never was estrogen dominant before and feel like I have enough of it now, so I think it may swing this and that way and then just get it right. At least I hope so!
I try and drink some soy milk too, that does seem to give my boobs a bit of a boost and will try with the massages and special lotion again. I would just like another 2 cm or so that my boobs look as big as they do with those bras on, as I just cant bring myself to wear those. Just too uncomfortable! :-)
Hope I didnt go on too much, good luck to all of you guys though, and overall the vitex has helped me a lot more than it has bothered me so far, so I would recommend it to anyone with that elevated testosterone problem.
And I am sure those estrogenic symptoms pass, I feel a bit better already, the past two months were a bit strange but am just past my period there and it was astonishingly little pain and my boobs, even on day six today seem as full as before my period, so not too much pre period swelling there even though they felt they got bigger, at least I seem to have kept that. And they actually have been tingling too :-).
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 24 2008, 1:34 PM
Hi Lisa, nice hearing from you! Thanks for the detailed recount of your experience, I think it's an important insight since not many people who are not estrogen dominant tried it. I've been wondering if parhaps NBE after a long treatment with vitex could be more effective as the hormones are more balanced then. Will be interesting to try, too bad it takes so long tho lol. I'm gonna give it a shot in fall.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 24 2008, 5:15 PM
Thank you for sharing Lisa! It definitely helps to hear your experiences with vitex since you havethe same problems as us glad it worked well for you. But yes as -Moon- said, yikes thats alot of months haha... I would go and buy it real soon but I just know I'm not going to have time because of summer events... I don't even remember to massages everyday anymore. Maybe I should wait till fall too...
Lisa121
(no login) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. May 5 2008, 5:42 PM
Girls, just a question maybe more to those of you who are estrogen dominant. Is it normal to experience sore to touch nipples in the middle of your cycle?
I am not sure if this is just a side effect of taking the vitex unrelated to growth or if it is growing pains. I know I will know more by the end of the month, I am still wondering though and it is still three weeks until I know.
The past four days my nipples have been sore to touch, so am wondering what is going on as I am not really doing anything besides taking the vitex and started taking some hawthorn a week ago due to other complaints. I cant imagine that would do anything either.
So, vitex maybe finally causing some growth, or just causing some pain and not doing anything to make my boobs a bit bigger???
jackie
(Login classyfashh) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. May 8 2008, 1:03 AM
Lisa-
I had the same problem a few weeks ago. I can't remember if I was on my period or not but my nipples were extremelyyyyyy sore. And yes I was taking Vitex.
It sort of felt like a stinging pain and I had to massage it but when I did it would kind of feel weird. It's hard to explain but the pain was unbearable.
Maybe it is growth?!? I'm not sure though. We will see I suppose.
Lisa121
(no login) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. May 8 2008, 8:08 PM
Hi Jackie, thanks for the reply. How long have you been taking vitex for?
The pain is now almost gone, after about five or six days. It was a stabbing pain like you describe as well, I wanted to massage as well but it was just too sore.
I think my boobs look a bit fuller today, but it is always such a subjective experience and my tape measure doesnt give me any clear results. I also think I have lost about two kilos or so in the past two weeks and for that my boobs look pretty full and big, bigger than normal actually, so this seems positive. It may just be swelling but somehow I dont think so. I guess time will tell. If I have a repeat of these pains next month I guess it is growing pains, wouldnt that be nice! :-)
If you dont mind, maybe keep me updated and I will do the same.
April 21 2008 at 9:48 PM jackie (Login classyfashh)
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Seriously, I'm on my 2nd month and like 7 days of taking Vitex and it's making me like REALLY crabby lately. I thought the first 1 and 3/4 of months were doing good but I'm not even on my period anymore and I seriously can't take this, I am getting so mad at everything. And I'm also very anxious randomly. Not only that but before even taking Vitex my boobs NEVER swelled up on my period. Now they constantly do. It's like the opposite though. I'm not as mean on my period anymore but the rest of the month I'm psychotic. I seriously just want to give up. And I don't know why my veins seem to me more clear and visible in my boobs. Is this all a bad sign and should I stop? Or is it possibly a sign of it working? UGHHHHHH !!!!!!! NBE is really screwing with my head now hahahah
Author Reply
sandy
(Login sandy111)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 21 2008, 10:08 PM
I really would like to know what the breast swelling before the period means
is it normal? It happened to me before and i am not on a any herb , i feel the same feeling as if i was on herbs.Is that a kind of estrogen dominace.I used to feel that at the begining of my program when i was introducing extra estrogen.what's going on?Sorry Jackie for posting here but my question is a little bit like yours about the swelling.
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 3:53 AM
I *think* it might be a good sign. Because in my teens I used to get cycle sweeling all the time but only in my boobs. I was quite well endowed back then (at the time weighed 90-lbs but had an overflowing D cup). If it happened back when i was nothing but boobs, I don't see how it could be a bad thing. So I guess maybe it means there is a good blood supply and hormone activity going on in that area? Just a theory.
Anyone know?
Hopeul88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 4:02 AM
Hm from what I've read in te past cycle swellin relates to estrogen dominance for sure. Andthe month long PMSing would in my opinion also be related to high estrogen levels. Maybe its just the vitex still trying to help your body balance out? or you could just be having a bad month. Hang in there and see how things go in your next cycle I guess, good luck!
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 6:37 AM
I've heard that vitex often temporarily worstens period cramps but ultimately it improves them hugely, so it could apply to other period/hormonal symptoms as well. It's very known that vitex is a slow herb that only reaches its full potential of action at 5, 6 months, so I think it may be worth enduring the temporary hormonal blow, but I guess it depends on how severe it is. Certainly the further in you are, the more of a loss it would be to stop.
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 2:48 PM
Moon, what are your thoughts on the swelling issue? is it a good sign to start having cycle swelling in the boobs? I'm starting to get this again now that I'm on WU. I didn't get this with single herbs though. Makes me wonder what it means.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 4:46 PM
I'm really not sure on the swelling issue. Sweling has been reported to precede growth on NBE. It's also a constant phenomenon at some women while they are not on NBE and not growing. And it's also a PMS symptom. The question is whether this is all the same swelling, or is the growth related swelling limited to boobs only and different in cause and mechanism than the PMS related swelling which might be whole body swelling or bloating? The PMS / estrogen domanance swelling is a conscequence of high estrogen to progesterone ratio and this probably isn't good for NBE. I've never had a milimenter of lutheal swelling, I wonder if this means somehting?
One thing that we can explain is vitex induced swelling - it's a conscequence of the transistent hormonal blow that vitex causes because it opens up the estrogen receptors, so you have a sudden increase in estrogenic activity conscequentially followed by worsening of related symptoms, but eventually this balances out because the progesteron boost starts to kick in.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 5:38 PM
"I've never had a milimenter of lutheal swelling, I wonder if this means somehting? "
Same for me, and I often think about what this means. My guess is, considering the estrogen dominance ladies get it, that we're the kind that don't have enough estrogen? makes sense with me and all my excess androgens bleh.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 6:44 PM
Hopeful - definitely agree! I am quite certain I am estrogen defficient. I'm getting an idea how to explain the good and the bad swelling - swelling could be the conscequence not precisely of high estrogen to progesterone ratio, but simply of high estrogen - so estrogen dominance as well as a healthy cycle, and it would also increase when you increase the levels of estrogen with a more estrogenic program.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 7:32 PM
Hm interesting... and I guess the reason I didn't get any swelling even while on BCPs was because those deal with ovaries' hormone levels right? this definitely makes me tempted to take a bunch of estrogenic herbs (even red clover) but seriously I'm still dealing with new red marks on my fac from that damn fenugreek. So i've been taking it easy, with just SP, hops, fennel when I remember, multivitamin, teas... I would rather have clear skin than trying to grow bigger boobs right now. Oh well, back to getting my tan on
so glad summer is hereMoon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 8:24 PM
Hopeful - I don't have any facts to support it, but I've been thinking that galactogogues maybe aren't good for estrogen deficiency and that purely estrogenic herbs are more suitable - soy, red clover. It's just a hunch tho. But if you've had a reaction to FG I'd definitely subsitute it.
hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 10:50 PM
yeah I think I agree... ok when I muster up the strength to do more NBE stuff again I think I am definitely going with the soy or red clover. best wishes
jackie
(Login classyfashh) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 22 2008, 10:57 PM
Ohkay cool. I'll keep taking them for another 3 months but it's making me like suicidally depressed. Haha minus the suicidal thing but I hope this doesn't leave me like this permanently.
EEEEK. It feels like it's RAISING my estrogen levels which isn't what I'm supposed to be doing.
Ugh.
And I can't stop eating chocolate. That's bad too but whatever
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 12:29 AM
so then wouldn't using progesterone cream just during those first few months counteract the vitex symptoms? Also wondering why is it that when I took fenugreek as a single herb at only 1000mg I had acne from it. but taking 4-6 WU a day (which contains fenugreek extract) I don't get acne at all.
hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 12:32 AM
I got bad acne from fenugreek in the past too but have no idea why the WU didn't...
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 1:02 AM
hopeful did you try WU? did you get acne with it? I really don't understand why but WU has a good amount of fenugreek extract in it and I don't get acne on that. But if I take even a low dose of the single herb I do get acne. And I mean I had it BAAAAAAD! It was disgusting.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 4:30 AM
No I never tried WU, maybe someday, and yes before when I was taking a low dose of the fenugreek too. Let me know if you come with a possible reason why that is because I have no clue. good luck!
kieyah
(Login kieyah)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 5:33 AM
the only thing I can think of is that it is in a different form. It is extract in WU. But it seems like it would be the same thing. Comes from the same part of the plant. I did take saw palmetto with the FG and still got the acne. I didn't get acne with any other herb I tried, only FG. The only thing that helped some was pumpkin seed oil but I still had acne, just not as bad. Or maybe there is an ingredient in WU that counteracts the acne? i don't know what some of the herbs are.
Could it be I just finally got used to it and just happened to be at the same time I started WU? Maybe I should try the powdered herbs again for a week or so just to see if I get it again. I am really intreged now. But not sure it is worth the breakout.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 5:47 AM
You and me have too many similarties with this case
I took SP with the fenugreek too and it didn't help but I general I loveee my SP, it totally stops my acne (I would get painful deep ones)
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 6:22 AM
-Moon- : about what we were discussing before, I was reading online about estrogen dificiencies and from what I read taking more potant estrogenic herbs (like say red clover, black cohosh, etc) is actually not that beneficial because its causing our bodies own barely there estrogen to be knocked out with the phytos. Ultimately, even if the phytos do help give us more estrogen it will really only bring us up to a normal range which will not give growth or give just a little.
So what we are supposed to do is take herbs that nourish a woman's own hormone system... so seems like vtex would be good I'm just scared by balancing its going to give me more acne once again
what I'm also wondering is how long have I been producing less estrogen? my whole life since puberty? how come i still developed a girly figure (minus the boobs), a very feminine face, high feminine voice... shouldnt these things along with my breasts have failed to form? or was it perhaps the bit of estrogen i produced went to forming those things but there just wasn't enough for the breasts? so unfortunate...
so which route should i take... soy &/or red clover... or vitex... hm...
This message has been edited by Hopeful88 on Apr 23, 2008 6:42 AM
This message has been edited by Hopeful88 on Apr 23, 2008 6:34 AM
This message has been edited by Hopeful88 on Apr 23, 2008 6:25 AM
chasteberry
(no login) vitex alone April 23 2008, 7:02 AM
i'm new to this forum and relieved to know someone else is having complications with vitex. i'm taking vitex along with full potential, saw palmetto, royal jelly, gelatine and multivitamins. i feel great most of the time except when i'm ovulating, i go absolutely insane!! i almost break up with my boyfriend every month. also my sex drive is up the wall but my growth seems to slow down. i wonder if the combination is wrong. i started my routine in january and grew about half a cup size since but also gained around my hips(boo). can anyone give me some advice?
fengshui
(Login fengshuiTW)
SENIOR MEMBER sorry about this O/T and stupid question.... April 23 2008, 7:28 AM
I have been wondering......really stupid......
What's the difference between "hips" and "butt"?
Checked the English/Chinese dictionary, it means the same in Chinese........
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 9:18 AM
About the acne on FG alone, the only sensible explanation that occurs to me is that WU has a good formula that somehow prevents acne. I think I might mail Vortex and ask them, I am curious what in their formula lowers androgens. They did once say they didn't include SP because it wasn't necessary, so there must be sth else.
I'm also not so sure about my theory that galactogogues wouldn't be good for estrogen deficiency anymore, cause then WU wouldn't have such a high success rate. Sorry for confusing everyone. :p
Hopeful - Do you have the link to where you read that? I'm not sure I believe in the whole competition theory, because then NBE makes zero sense - we grow by diminishing the estrogenic actions in our body. In this case, any herb, the strong ones and the weak ones would diminish it. But whether it really comes to competition depends on the number of receptors relative to hormones. And I would like to know if the competition theory takes that into account, which I don't know. If there are a lot more receptors than hormones, then competition would be virtually nonexistent and herbs would only add the the overall estrogenic action in the body. This certainly agrees the practical experience NBE gave us - you grow on an optimal dose, which means the best added action/competition ration. At too high doses of herbs, we cause too much competition and stall.
I too have thoguht of taking vitex, I actually already have two bottles in reserve and I will probably take it in the fall/winter. Am kinda anxious about the hormonal blow. And then again, I don't think I'm progesterone deficient, at least not on BCP, I did have PMS and some other symptoms while off it. But I know of at least 1 member (Lisa121) that was estrogen deficient and took vitex and she said it was good for her, it cleared up her acne, improved her periods/PMS and she said she was growing on it very slowly too. She didn't report the estrogenic hormonal blow and I've actually been thinking that us estrogen defficient girls might not get that on vitex, since we lack it and have a better estrogen/progesteron ration than estrogen dominant. But Kieyah's suggestion to take PC sounds sensible for anyone that gets it, but I'd asjk some expwert what they think. It is an unusual combination after all.
Again I'm exactly like you in this Hopeful - feminine figure minus boobs, girly voice etc. I have no idea what sort of hormonal profile produces that, but one clue for estrogen deficiency might be when you stoped growing in hight, as estrogen closes the growth plates in the bones. Girls are not supposed to grow for a long time after they get their period, I grew till I was 18,19 I think.
Fengshui - butt are only the buttox, the muscle (gluteus maximus) and hips are the whole area arround and arround, or the sides especially, so reffering the pelvis. I'm not a native English speaker tho so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
Zuri
(no login) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 10:29 AM
Has any of the girls who got acne on their routines tried Evening Primrose Oil? I used to take it some years ago alone just to help me get a clearer skin and it was very very helpful! Moreover it is supposed to help with boobie growth as it contains essential fatty acids.
Regarding what Hopeful said that potent phytoestrogens may cause our body to eventually be less responsive to producing estrogen on its own, I remember I also read this recently, on a site saying about Maca. Maca is supposed to help with hormonal balance by nourishing the hormonal glands. Here is the link to the site:
http://www.natural-progesterone-estrogen...rmones.htm
It's under the title Treating Hormonal Deficiency with MacaActive Supplements
jackie
(Login classyfashh) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 10:47 AM
What are we even talking about now I'm confused.
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 4:36 PM
Sorry Jackie I know we highjacked your thread!
-Moon- this is the site: http://www.natural-hormones.net/treatments.htm it has relatively the same info as the site Zuri posted under alternatve medicine (on both pages). The fact that they are very similar makes me think mayeb they are bogus? But then we have heard about Maca before so maybe they are telling the correct info... I wonder why waxingoon started taking maca in the first place...
Anyways I see your point about NBE not making sense then, they are probably wrong or something... so which do you think is the better route to take strong phytos or just the vitex?
Oh an I did not grow till I was in my late teens like you. I only grew up till I got my period (age 12) and that was it. Height wise (luckily I was one of the tallest in my classes than at 5"5) stayed the same, as well as hairyness and boobs obviously... it all started just before my period and nothing ever progressed more than that. Actually the only thing that has is my god awful acne problems! I had since my period maybe an occasional pimple no big deal, it wasn't until I was 17 that my acne got really bad and became all painful and deep... and left me with all these awful red marks that I try desperately to cover up with makeup everyday *sigh*
Lisa121
(no login) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 23 2008, 6:10 PM
Hi girls, hi Moon, thought I would chip in and tell a bit how it went with me so far. I havent been around much lately, just so busy and not been doing the NBE thing for a while. More concentrating on my weight gain, but am happy to report I am keeping it kind of steady around the 52 kg mark, which is what I started off with, and got bigger boobs with that too (small A cup :-) ), so not really complaining.
I started Vitex in August, September? Not exactly sure, but took a two week break from it just 1 1/2 weeks ago just to give my body and myself a little breather.
As for the estrogenic symptoms, lately I have actually started to get that pre-menstrual swelling too, and some other weird stuff I havent had before either. The weird thing is, which I didnt get before, at least I cant remember, that the night before I get my days now I get night sweats, I mean soaking through everything, and hot and cold flushes these past four months. Then, like clockowrk, the next night my days arrive. How weird is that? Also, where I ate some chocolate during my period before, these past months since taking vitex that craving and started like a week before. I am really no chocolate eater, so that is a bit strange. Does that sound estrogenic?
Generally I feel quite good besides that, it helps my moods, my acne is better even though not gone completely (am only taking 400 mg versus 800 mg a day at the moment though, may ramp up again, I will have to see) and generally my mood is so much better than it ever was on the pill, and without anything it is just plain hell!!!
Since coming off the pill my cycle was a bit off, before I took it (like 10 years ago) it was bang on 28 days. The Vitex has stablised that again I think I am now around 30 days and it has helped with period pains, even though they were still quite bad about two months ago, they have gotten better now. So, it really seems to take its time to work.
So, I think it helps with the overdose of testosterone, even though it hasnt gotten rid of it all it seems (still sweaty and some acne) but I never expected wonders and not in such a short time. Also I read that it can take up to two years of treatment in combo with SP or Nettle, so I may add the Nettle again soon as well, I am just so pill taking tired at the moment that I barely manage to swallow the one Vitex a day.
I will just keep going like this just now, my guess is it will balance it out in the end, I never was estrogen dominant before and feel like I have enough of it now, so I think it may swing this and that way and then just get it right. At least I hope so!
I try and drink some soy milk too, that does seem to give my boobs a bit of a boost and will try with the massages and special lotion again. I would just like another 2 cm or so that my boobs look as big as they do with those bras on, as I just cant bring myself to wear those. Just too uncomfortable! :-)
Hope I didnt go on too much, good luck to all of you guys though, and overall the vitex has helped me a lot more than it has bothered me so far, so I would recommend it to anyone with that elevated testosterone problem.
And I am sure those estrogenic symptoms pass, I feel a bit better already, the past two months were a bit strange but am just past my period there and it was astonishingly little pain and my boobs, even on day six today seem as full as before my period, so not too much pre period swelling there even though they felt they got bigger, at least I seem to have kept that. And they actually have been tingling too :-).
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 24 2008, 1:34 PM
Hi Lisa, nice hearing from you! Thanks for the detailed recount of your experience, I think it's an important insight since not many people who are not estrogen dominant tried it. I've been wondering if parhaps NBE after a long treatment with vitex could be more effective as the hormones are more balanced then. Will be interesting to try, too bad it takes so long tho lol. I'm gonna give it a shot in fall.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. April 24 2008, 5:15 PM
Thank you for sharing Lisa! It definitely helps to hear your experiences with vitex since you havethe same problems as us
glad it worked well for you. But yes as -Moon- said, yikes thats alot of months haha... I would go and buy it real soon but I just know I'm not going to have time because of summer events... I don't even remember to massages everyday anymore. Maybe I should wait till fall too...Lisa121
(no login) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. May 5 2008, 5:42 PM
Girls, just a question maybe more to those of you who are estrogen dominant. Is it normal to experience sore to touch nipples in the middle of your cycle?
I am not sure if this is just a side effect of taking the vitex unrelated to growth or if it is growing pains. I know I will know more by the end of the month, I am still wondering though and it is still three weeks until I know.
The past four days my nipples have been sore to touch, so am wondering what is going on as I am not really doing anything besides taking the vitex and started taking some hawthorn a week ago due to other complaints. I cant imagine that would do anything either.
So, vitex maybe finally causing some growth, or just causing some pain and not doing anything to make my boobs a bit bigger???
jackie
(Login classyfashh) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. May 8 2008, 1:03 AM
Lisa-
I had the same problem a few weeks ago. I can't remember if I was on my period or not but my nipples were extremelyyyyyy sore. And yes I was taking Vitex.
It sort of felt like a stinging pain and I had to massage it but when I did it would kind of feel weird. It's hard to explain but the pain was unbearable.
Maybe it is growth?!? I'm not sure though. We will see I suppose.
Lisa121
(no login) Re: ANGRYYY !!!! STUPID VITEX. May 8 2008, 8:08 PM
Hi Jackie, thanks for the reply. How long have you been taking vitex for?
The pain is now almost gone, after about five or six days. It was a stabbing pain like you describe as well, I wanted to massage as well but it was just too sore.
I think my boobs look a bit fuller today, but it is always such a subjective experience and my tape measure doesnt give me any clear results. I also think I have lost about two kilos or so in the past two weeks and for that my boobs look pretty full and big, bigger than normal actually, so this seems positive. It may just be swelling but somehow I dont think so. I guess time will tell. If I have a repeat of these pains next month I guess it is growing pains, wouldnt that be nice! :-)
If you dont mind, maybe keep me updated and I will do the same.