11-01-2016, 00:13
Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 19 2009 at 8:51 PM BooBoo (Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
It seems that most of the discussion here is geared toward one of the forms of Estrogen Dominance and how to overcome it, but what about those of us that seem to be deficient? I've not had the saliva or blood tests taken, but I exhibit many of the classic symptoms of menopause (night sweats, hot flashes, changes in body odor, etc) with very few of the overlapping symptoms. Mind you, I am only 27, am on the pill, and have 100% regular periods thanks to it.
Does this change your general guidelines for max doses? I'm 5' 2", 153 lbs. More than I would like to weigh (130 is a good weight for me), but I am an hourglass and carry my weight evenly, so I look like I weigh less, at least. I also have a large frame and am a 38B. I've never had children.
I began with the Greenbush 90 day kit just shy of 2 months ago and I followed your guide for ramping up. I have been a bit lax with the batter as it's terribly grainy, but I have kept up with it at least a few times a week. I have had plenty of growing pains, but no signs of growth or even fullness. On the single skip day, taking no herbs stopped my pains in their tracks and caused me to spot (not surprising since just a missed day or two of my BC pill will cause my period to start due to my already low estrogen levels).
So, I guess I'm asking if you think I should carry on as I am and hope for the best, or are their exceptions to your rules? Or do you have any other suggestions that might push me over that final bump and jumpstart my growth? Thanks in advance for any insight you might provide.
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 19 2009, 10:09 PM
BooBoo,
What pill are you on?
>>"and have 100% regular periods thanks to it"
What problems does the pill address for you?
Are you having those side effects (night sweats, hot flashes, changes in body odor, etc) while on the pill or before?
Your description sounds like you had abnormal periods in some way (details please), started taking the pill, get the above mentioned side effects, spot when doing BE and taking a day off on day 14, and are seeing absolutely no results. Is this correct?
The spotting is typically a sign of low progesterone.
You are the first that has reported spotting by skipping day 14. Skipping day 14 was specifically designed to avoid spotting.
You are living proof that my rules have exceptions. Hopefully we can figure this out. It could be that the combination of BE and your BC pill, along with whatever problems that the BC pill addresses is unhealthy for you. I recommend that you discontinue BE immediately.
Wahaika
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 19 2009, 10:27 PM
Thanks for replying. I'm on Ortho Novum 7/7/7. It's not that I was out of whack before, just the norm for the age I was when I began taking the pill (20), i.e. more prone to irregularity due to stress and heavier bleeding with more cramps. What I was really getting at is that NBE hasn't had any ill effects on my cycle, as it does for some.
The symptoms of estrogen deficiency began a year or two ago, 4 or 5 years after starting the pill. My Dr said that some women do begin to produce less estrogen while on the pill for a while. The NBE herbs have actually *helped* a lot of the symptoms, though they have not disappeared completely.
That one day of spotting was a first. I had not had that problem before with herbs or BO (failed attempt as I wasn't able to see it through at the time), nor have I had it since.
There is one other thing that may have factored into the spotting. I began an exercise program about a month ago. One of its touted benefits is hormone regulation and a lot of women complain about spotting in their first month or two of doing it, esp near mid-cycle. My spotting occurred in my first week of that program. So it may be that the workout was mucking things up enough that, in conjunction with the skipped day, I spotted.
As for stopping NBE, I really hope it doesn't come down to that. Breast growth aside, the minimization of so many of the other symptoms has greatly improved my quality of life and I'd hate to give that up.
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 26 2009, 6:02 PM
Bumping this for Wahaika
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 27 2009, 1:33 AM
BooBoo,
What is the dosage regimen for the Ortho Novum 7/7/7 ?
I can believe easily that you are getting estrogen deficiency symptoms. It seems to me that something like Ortho will eventually start a downregulation of estrogen production due to the negative feedback system. Another problem that I just learned about is that BC pills raise SHBG sky high which would bind up testosterone and estrogen (I have no idea why this would not also bind up the estrogen from the Ortho pills). So one of the things you will have to do for sure is to take things that will lower SHBG like wild oats extract, stinging nettle root, etc.
Wahaika
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 27 2009, 2:43 AM
Hmmm, that's interesting about the SHBG increase. I wasn't aware of that myself. I'll have to do some research. Any specific recommendation on which supplement to take? What are the possible side effects of adding such a thing?
For the 7/7/7, pulled from the Net, "Each white tablet contains 0.5 mg of norethindrone and 0.035 mg of ethinyl estradiol. Each light peach tablet contains 0.75 mg of norethindrone and 0.035 mg of ethinyl estradiol. Each peach tablet contains 1 mg of norethindrone and 0.035 mg of ethinyl estradiol. Each green tablet contains only inert ingredients."
Each color is taken for 7 days, in the order presented above. Thanks, as always, for your time.
This message has been edited by Boo_Boo_Bear on May 27, 2009 5:48 AM
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 27 2009, 8:19 PM
After some research, Stinging Nettle Root is winning in my eyes due to some other positive effects (anti-inflammatory capabilities). So, unless you have any objections / better suggestions, I think that's what I am leaning toward. So that leaves me with my original question: will this have any side effects? I see that the Nettle itself does not, but will the lowering of the SHBG have any? It *should* decreased or get rid of my deficiency symptoms eventually, correct? Anything else to keep watch for? Also, what dosage would you suggest?
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 28 2009, 12:27 AM
BooBoo,
I need to stress that this is total guesswork on my part. Please correct me where needed as I try to put the puzzle pieces together:
You got to an age (20) that you started taking Ortho Novum not to fix any real abnormalities but because it was the thing to do for your age and to address stress related symptoms, heavy bleeding, and cramps (all estrogen dominant symptoms so estrogen is already relatively high).
Your doctor said that "some women do begin to produce less estrogen while on the pill for a while" and the symptoms began to disappear, but not completely. Interesting.
Here is what I think is happening. The "estrogen" in Ortho artificially raised your estrogen levels. When either estrogen or testosterone are raised, SHBG naturally raises also. This would have the effect of lowering free testosterone and free estrogen because there is more SHBG to bind to it/them. It is also possible that your negative feedback system downregulated estrogen production to compensate. You may be on the roller coaster ride back up. This could explain the menopause like symptoms that you described in your first post, after having been on Ortho for 4 or 5 years. It would be interesting to see the correlation between the symptoms, the cycle days, and the days that you take the Ortho pills.
Have you experienced any acne in the past 5 years?
Further, the pills show a steady amount of estrogenic substance until a sudden drop on day 22. I can understand why the drop, but production at a steady rate is not what the body does. There is a ramp up for the first 14 days then a drop followed by a level off until day 22 or so. But the purpose of the steady rate could be meant to be a stabilizing effect.
Norethindrone taken by itself appears to be recommended for the second half of the cycle, but Ortho Novum starts on day one and increases steadily all the way to day 22.
http://www.medicinenet.com/norethindrone...rticle.htm
There are a few things to try. One is definitely stinging nettle root and/or wild oats extract. But another is to discontinue Ortho and see if that is causing the problems. It may be that your system is beginning to reject it. It may be that your system needs a rest or a change to a different BC. On that, you would need an opinion from your doctor, but that is what it looks like to me. I have never been a fan of BC when it comes to general health.
I don't think that you will experience any negative side effect by taking stinging nettle root, but if you do, you can expect some combination of effects due to increased free testosterone and estrogen. This could be anything from higher libido to aggression to the other end of the scale of weepiness, PMS, moodiness, and even more spotting if it really got bad. But what I think you would be doing is revealing how the Ortho is keeping your system from running naturally. In other words, if you experience spotting, you are showing that your system is already too high on estrogen which is most likely caused by the Ortho, in my opinion. You are just using stinging nettle to pull the curtain back to expose it. Does that make sense?
Wahaika
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 28 2009, 1:10 AM
Yes, it makes quite a bit of sense though I have a couple points of clarification. Regarding my symptoms of the cramps and heavier bleeding disappearing on BC, that is extremely common for almost all women due to the fact that the pill alters the uterine lining, so I don't think that it points to an excess of estrogen prior to beginning it. I've never had any other symptoms to suggest it, either.
For your question about where in the cycle the symptoms occur, they can be ignored most of the time, but the week of sugar pills they are unbearable. Or rather, they were before beginning herbs. Now they can be tolerated, but they are still exceptionally noticeable at that time.
I have the occasional breakout like everyone, but I've never had issues with acne, before the pill or to date. Thankfully my family is blessed with clear skin, though mine is terribly dry.
I'm not certain of all the reasons, but I know that the seemingly illogical dosages in the pill have the dual purpose of cycle regulation and prohibiting ovulation.
Discontinuing BC isn't an option at this time, but I'll keep possibly switching types in mind. I'm due for my yearly in a couple months, so maybe by then I'll have something more to discuss with my Dr.
Given the types of side effects possible, I'm not too worried. I'm a very even keeled person and don't have issues keeping my emotions in check. I'll be glad to learn more about what's happening to my body so that I can make more informed choices about my health.
So I guess the last question I have, before I stop bugging you, is regarding the dose. I've looked through the programs where it was used and the doses ranged from 500 - 3,000 mg and few state WHY they were taking it. My guess would be that that would greatly effect one's dosing needs. So, I'd appreciate any input on that and I thank you again for all the time and effort you've put in.
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 28 2009, 1:58 AM
BooBoo,
Stinging Nettle does 2 things as far as BE is concerned. It is a 5-Alpha Reductase inhibitor which is the enzyme connection from testosterone to DHT, and it binds to SHBG. Both mechanisms raise free testosterone making it available for aromatization to estrogen.
As for the dosage, 500 to 3000mg is OK. I would not suggest a dosage on that particular one because of the sensitivity of ones body, how much testosterone and or estrogen there is to free up, how high ones 5-Alpha Reductase and/or SHBG levels are, etc. The best thing to do is to ramp it up and see how the different steps affect you. You might also use wild oats extract (for SHBG) and pumpkin seed oil (for 5-Alpha Reductase) as well.
I know that wasn't very precise, but ramping up the dosage really is the best way to determine what works best.
Wahaika
This message has been edited by Wahaika on May 28, 2009 2:02 AM
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 28 2009, 2:11 AM
Perfectly reasonable answer, thank you.
May 19 2009 at 8:51 PM BooBoo (Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
It seems that most of the discussion here is geared toward one of the forms of Estrogen Dominance and how to overcome it, but what about those of us that seem to be deficient? I've not had the saliva or blood tests taken, but I exhibit many of the classic symptoms of menopause (night sweats, hot flashes, changes in body odor, etc) with very few of the overlapping symptoms. Mind you, I am only 27, am on the pill, and have 100% regular periods thanks to it.
Does this change your general guidelines for max doses? I'm 5' 2", 153 lbs. More than I would like to weigh (130 is a good weight for me), but I am an hourglass and carry my weight evenly, so I look like I weigh less, at least. I also have a large frame and am a 38B. I've never had children.
I began with the Greenbush 90 day kit just shy of 2 months ago and I followed your guide for ramping up. I have been a bit lax with the batter as it's terribly grainy, but I have kept up with it at least a few times a week. I have had plenty of growing pains, but no signs of growth or even fullness. On the single skip day, taking no herbs stopped my pains in their tracks and caused me to spot (not surprising since just a missed day or two of my BC pill will cause my period to start due to my already low estrogen levels).
So, I guess I'm asking if you think I should carry on as I am and hope for the best, or are their exceptions to your rules? Or do you have any other suggestions that might push me over that final bump and jumpstart my growth? Thanks in advance for any insight you might provide.
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 19 2009, 10:09 PM
BooBoo,
What pill are you on?
>>"and have 100% regular periods thanks to it"
What problems does the pill address for you?
Are you having those side effects (night sweats, hot flashes, changes in body odor, etc) while on the pill or before?
Your description sounds like you had abnormal periods in some way (details please), started taking the pill, get the above mentioned side effects, spot when doing BE and taking a day off on day 14, and are seeing absolutely no results. Is this correct?
The spotting is typically a sign of low progesterone.
You are the first that has reported spotting by skipping day 14. Skipping day 14 was specifically designed to avoid spotting.
You are living proof that my rules have exceptions. Hopefully we can figure this out. It could be that the combination of BE and your BC pill, along with whatever problems that the BC pill addresses is unhealthy for you. I recommend that you discontinue BE immediately.
Wahaika
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 19 2009, 10:27 PM
Thanks for replying. I'm on Ortho Novum 7/7/7. It's not that I was out of whack before, just the norm for the age I was when I began taking the pill (20), i.e. more prone to irregularity due to stress and heavier bleeding with more cramps. What I was really getting at is that NBE hasn't had any ill effects on my cycle, as it does for some.
The symptoms of estrogen deficiency began a year or two ago, 4 or 5 years after starting the pill. My Dr said that some women do begin to produce less estrogen while on the pill for a while. The NBE herbs have actually *helped* a lot of the symptoms, though they have not disappeared completely.
That one day of spotting was a first. I had not had that problem before with herbs or BO (failed attempt as I wasn't able to see it through at the time), nor have I had it since.
There is one other thing that may have factored into the spotting. I began an exercise program about a month ago. One of its touted benefits is hormone regulation and a lot of women complain about spotting in their first month or two of doing it, esp near mid-cycle. My spotting occurred in my first week of that program. So it may be that the workout was mucking things up enough that, in conjunction with the skipped day, I spotted.
As for stopping NBE, I really hope it doesn't come down to that. Breast growth aside, the minimization of so many of the other symptoms has greatly improved my quality of life and I'd hate to give that up.
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 26 2009, 6:02 PM
Bumping this for Wahaika
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 27 2009, 1:33 AM
BooBoo,
What is the dosage regimen for the Ortho Novum 7/7/7 ?
I can believe easily that you are getting estrogen deficiency symptoms. It seems to me that something like Ortho will eventually start a downregulation of estrogen production due to the negative feedback system. Another problem that I just learned about is that BC pills raise SHBG sky high which would bind up testosterone and estrogen (I have no idea why this would not also bind up the estrogen from the Ortho pills). So one of the things you will have to do for sure is to take things that will lower SHBG like wild oats extract, stinging nettle root, etc.
Wahaika
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 27 2009, 2:43 AM
Hmmm, that's interesting about the SHBG increase. I wasn't aware of that myself. I'll have to do some research. Any specific recommendation on which supplement to take? What are the possible side effects of adding such a thing?
For the 7/7/7, pulled from the Net, "Each white tablet contains 0.5 mg of norethindrone and 0.035 mg of ethinyl estradiol. Each light peach tablet contains 0.75 mg of norethindrone and 0.035 mg of ethinyl estradiol. Each peach tablet contains 1 mg of norethindrone and 0.035 mg of ethinyl estradiol. Each green tablet contains only inert ingredients."
Each color is taken for 7 days, in the order presented above. Thanks, as always, for your time.
This message has been edited by Boo_Boo_Bear on May 27, 2009 5:48 AM
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 27 2009, 8:19 PM
After some research, Stinging Nettle Root is winning in my eyes due to some other positive effects (anti-inflammatory capabilities). So, unless you have any objections / better suggestions, I think that's what I am leaning toward. So that leaves me with my original question: will this have any side effects? I see that the Nettle itself does not, but will the lowering of the SHBG have any? It *should* decreased or get rid of my deficiency symptoms eventually, correct? Anything else to keep watch for? Also, what dosage would you suggest?
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 28 2009, 12:27 AM
BooBoo,
I need to stress that this is total guesswork on my part. Please correct me where needed as I try to put the puzzle pieces together:
You got to an age (20) that you started taking Ortho Novum not to fix any real abnormalities but because it was the thing to do for your age and to address stress related symptoms, heavy bleeding, and cramps (all estrogen dominant symptoms so estrogen is already relatively high).
Your doctor said that "some women do begin to produce less estrogen while on the pill for a while" and the symptoms began to disappear, but not completely. Interesting.
Here is what I think is happening. The "estrogen" in Ortho artificially raised your estrogen levels. When either estrogen or testosterone are raised, SHBG naturally raises also. This would have the effect of lowering free testosterone and free estrogen because there is more SHBG to bind to it/them. It is also possible that your negative feedback system downregulated estrogen production to compensate. You may be on the roller coaster ride back up. This could explain the menopause like symptoms that you described in your first post, after having been on Ortho for 4 or 5 years. It would be interesting to see the correlation between the symptoms, the cycle days, and the days that you take the Ortho pills.
Have you experienced any acne in the past 5 years?
Further, the pills show a steady amount of estrogenic substance until a sudden drop on day 22. I can understand why the drop, but production at a steady rate is not what the body does. There is a ramp up for the first 14 days then a drop followed by a level off until day 22 or so. But the purpose of the steady rate could be meant to be a stabilizing effect.
Norethindrone taken by itself appears to be recommended for the second half of the cycle, but Ortho Novum starts on day one and increases steadily all the way to day 22.
http://www.medicinenet.com/norethindrone...rticle.htm
There are a few things to try. One is definitely stinging nettle root and/or wild oats extract. But another is to discontinue Ortho and see if that is causing the problems. It may be that your system is beginning to reject it. It may be that your system needs a rest or a change to a different BC. On that, you would need an opinion from your doctor, but that is what it looks like to me. I have never been a fan of BC when it comes to general health.
I don't think that you will experience any negative side effect by taking stinging nettle root, but if you do, you can expect some combination of effects due to increased free testosterone and estrogen. This could be anything from higher libido to aggression to the other end of the scale of weepiness, PMS, moodiness, and even more spotting if it really got bad. But what I think you would be doing is revealing how the Ortho is keeping your system from running naturally. In other words, if you experience spotting, you are showing that your system is already too high on estrogen which is most likely caused by the Ortho, in my opinion. You are just using stinging nettle to pull the curtain back to expose it. Does that make sense?
Wahaika
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 28 2009, 1:10 AM
Yes, it makes quite a bit of sense though I have a couple points of clarification. Regarding my symptoms of the cramps and heavier bleeding disappearing on BC, that is extremely common for almost all women due to the fact that the pill alters the uterine lining, so I don't think that it points to an excess of estrogen prior to beginning it. I've never had any other symptoms to suggest it, either.
For your question about where in the cycle the symptoms occur, they can be ignored most of the time, but the week of sugar pills they are unbearable. Or rather, they were before beginning herbs. Now they can be tolerated, but they are still exceptionally noticeable at that time.
I have the occasional breakout like everyone, but I've never had issues with acne, before the pill or to date. Thankfully my family is blessed with clear skin, though mine is terribly dry.
I'm not certain of all the reasons, but I know that the seemingly illogical dosages in the pill have the dual purpose of cycle regulation and prohibiting ovulation.
Discontinuing BC isn't an option at this time, but I'll keep possibly switching types in mind. I'm due for my yearly in a couple months, so maybe by then I'll have something more to discuss with my Dr.
Given the types of side effects possible, I'm not too worried. I'm a very even keeled person and don't have issues keeping my emotions in check. I'll be glad to learn more about what's happening to my body so that I can make more informed choices about my health.
So I guess the last question I have, before I stop bugging you, is regarding the dose. I've looked through the programs where it was used and the doses ranged from 500 - 3,000 mg and few state WHY they were taking it. My guess would be that that would greatly effect one's dosing needs. So, I'd appreciate any input on that and I thank you again for all the time and effort you've put in.
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 28 2009, 1:58 AM
BooBoo,
Stinging Nettle does 2 things as far as BE is concerned. It is a 5-Alpha Reductase inhibitor which is the enzyme connection from testosterone to DHT, and it binds to SHBG. Both mechanisms raise free testosterone making it available for aromatization to estrogen.
As for the dosage, 500 to 3000mg is OK. I would not suggest a dosage on that particular one because of the sensitivity of ones body, how much testosterone and or estrogen there is to free up, how high ones 5-Alpha Reductase and/or SHBG levels are, etc. The best thing to do is to ramp it up and see how the different steps affect you. You might also use wild oats extract (for SHBG) and pumpkin seed oil (for 5-Alpha Reductase) as well.
I know that wasn't very precise, but ramping up the dosage really is the best way to determine what works best.
Wahaika
This message has been edited by Wahaika on May 28, 2009 2:02 AM
BooBoo
(Login Boo_Boo_Bear)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Wahaika - Estrogen Deficiency Question
May 28 2009, 2:11 AM
Perfectly reasonable answer, thank you.
Just my two cents.