29-01-2016, 23:19
Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006 at 4:00 AM Ally (Login Ally1313)
I found an article on the internet about how the key to breast enhancement is NOT estrogen, but progesterone. All the herbs that people are taking contain phyto-estrogens, so they mimic estrogen. Estrogen is supposed to increase body fat from the belly down, not the boobs...
http://www.totalityofbeing.com/ArchivedBreastShape.html
He mentions that wild yam contains progesterone, but I heard that the body can't use it in that form(??). I think the best bet is progesterone cream, 100% USP grade. You're supposed to use it from about the 14th day to the 28th day or something, I'm not entirely sure.
Any feedback would be welcome!
Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 6:27 AM
Progesterone is not the main key, otherwise no woman on this board would grow a centimetre with all the phytoestrogens taken. Dr. Wong has the right idea, but his article mainly applies to women who are estrogen dominant. The key is balance between progesterone and estrogen. Too much or too little of either hormone will not make grow breasts. For those women who already have enough estrogen, then yes, progesterone would be good to balance out the estrogen. For women with enough progesterone, then estrogen would be a wise idea. There is no one-hormone-fits-all, which is why NBE is a trial and error process.
valeryblack
(Login valeryblack)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 6:44 AM
How can I find out if I'm estrogen dominant or not?
Darisha
(Login Darisha)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 7:03 AM
Hi Valeryblack, you can go to www.johnleemd.com and at the bottom of the page take the "hormone balance test" for women. You can't get a complete 100% accurate reading but you can get an idea with just some symptoms you describe in the test. Hope this helps.
valeryblack
(Login valeryblack)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 11:25 AM
thanks. It seem I have low progesterone and am estrogen dominant. Would it then be a bad idea for me to use Wonderup? Where can I buy progesterone cream? (with shipping to Europe)
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 12:34 PM
I disagree, from all the info I've gathered so far I have reasons to believe that estrogen is the main thing - usually. Any generalized claim like that one is not very accurate to begin with, cause we don't all have the same conditions in our bodies, but very diverse and opposite even - some are estrogen dominant, some defficient, some have too much progestins, some have excess angrogens, etc... In estrogen deficiency, I'm quite sure that progesterone compared to estrogen is the main imbalance that stalls development of breasts. In this case it's good to introduce estrogenic agents into the body, while introducing strong progestins like in certain BCP can stall NBE. I believe this is my case and I'll be able to test this hypothesis when I start red clover in my routine, which is estrogenic and also gets rid of excess progesterone.
Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 5:29 PM
I disagree as well. I have heard and am also convinced that IMBALANCE is the key to growth. Think about the times when growth naturally occurs: puberty, pregnancy. I would venture to say that at periods when we are neither experiencing puberty nor pregnancy our hormones are at balanced or near balanced state. I'm no expert, though.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 7:14 PM
Well depends what you call balance. As far as I know the levels of hormones don't drop after puberty (but after menopuse), so we are in the same balance. I think balance would sooner be the key to growth, balance as some standard values at which hormones do their job, which includes make breasts grow to a certian size determined by genes and other factors. Imbalance are levels at which hormones don't do their job optimally and so hinder development.
Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 10:15 PM
4pomegranate: I am curious: what makes you believe that during puberty or pregnancy, our bodies become hormonally imbalanced?
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 3:27 AM
I read the progesterone article as well as a bunch of other articles about NBE and hormones...it seems that maybe we need to be taking a lot of BOTH phytoestrogens AND natural progesterones. But the whole hormone thing is still really confusing to me.
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 5:17 AM
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree I've been taking estrogen rich plants for the past YEAR and have grown absolutely nothing. All my hormone levels were whack, I ended up taking lots of estrogen and very little progesterone, and have nothing to show for it. The doctor finally prescribed a progesterone pill for me to take and we'll just have to see if I grow. All I hear is that progesterone is responsible for upper body growth (boobs) while estrogen is responsible for lower body growth (hips).
Ally
(Login Ally1313)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 5:38 AM
I know that my estrogen level is normal, but I have no idea about my progesterone levels. I am going to take more progesterone-rich herbs, and probably very little estrogen rich stuff. It IS also true that most women are estrogen-dominant, so upping progesterone would help.
But then why is it that during the 14th or so day of your menstrual cycle, progesterone levels SPIKE, estrogen levels decrease, and that's when your boobs tend to swell?
I don't know, now I'm confused (sigh).
Anonymous
(Login organic_angel)
Balance, not dominance is key
December 12 2006, 8:40 AM
Hello organic boobie friends,
I have to add to this thread and say that I have very open communication with my naturopath about my nbe quest. This is a combination of her medical knowledge; mine; and my personal experience.
BOTH estrogen and progesterin are needed for breast growth and health. Too much of either, will stall any routine. That is evident in why one person's routine can be successful with much lower amounts of something that may have mostly or all phytoestrogen ingredients, and for others, this sends them into estrogen overload. This is especially true for menapausal women. ALL hormones decline when in perimenapause and menapause. Ovaries secrete estrogen; progesterin and testosterone. They all decrease with age and especially when entering menapause.
That being said, this is my reasoning for starting my latest routine with BO being the main ingredient/factor. BO affects your ovaries, which again are responsible for balancing ALL necessary hormones. Another thought....PM states to use it during a particular phase of your cycle. Hormone Balance. Phytoestrogens are probably most successful for younger women, while glandulars I believe would be successful for young and older women alike. I started my routine today as a matter of fact, however, I've been taking homeopathic testosterone (temporary) to kick down my extreme estrogen dominance. I have been massaging with cocoa butter and vit E, while waiting for BO and other goodies to arrive. I have to tell you, that in the 10 days I've been doing this.....I've plumped up. Most noticeably on the sides and the nipple area. I also have had a couple slight "twinges" deep in my nipple area. And this is without having started my routine. This makes me very hopeful, and it seems to also justify that hormone balance theory as well.
So, I personally think balance is key, and age factoring into that, and what your body is or isn't responding to. I stumbled across a very comprehensive online hormone profile test not too long ago. I'll see if I can rediscover it and pass it on. It's much, much more indepth than any of the ones I've seen mentioned here.
Organic Boobie Blessings to All
Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 3:47 PM
Like I said before, I'm no expert. Our hormones do shift during pregnancy, that much is obvious to all of us, both progesterone and estrogen are produced in mass amounts, creating an "imbalance" in our bodies it does not experience at any other natural time. There are more hormones to consider also when thinking about balance, like testosterone. I really do not think that we would grow if these hormones were all at an equal ordinary level. There's more information on how our hormones shift during pregnancy here:
http://www.paternityangel.com/Articles_z...sIntro.htm
Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 4:01 PM
Oh yeah, and I forgot to add in puberty. Puberty is when our bodies suddennly introduce an increase of hormones, resulting in growth. This increase is an "imbalance" to what our bodies were used to. Isn't that what we're trying to do here? Give our bodies a boost to start a change similar to that first time?
Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 13 2006, 3:42 AM
Aly- breast swelling is a sign of estrogen being present where it should not be. Technically, when progesterone and estradiol levels are balanced, breast swelling and tenderness should be gone. If breast pain or swelling occurs, it means estrogen is dominant over the progesterone, and is taking over the house, so to speak.
Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 13 2006, 3:49 AM
4pomegranate- I understand what you mean, but technically, during times such as puberty or pregnancy, our bodies do not become imbalanced. In fact, the amount of hormone secretions rise to keep the body in balance, otherwise, it would cause all sorts of problems. Increasing hormones during puberty or pregnancy does not mean imbalance, but rather a sign that ones body is working properly. The amount of each hormone produced is at its normal level when looked at during the situation of each expectant change (puberty or pregnancy). Each hormone interacts with or stimulates another hormone to a certain degree.
Take pregnancy, for example. Progesterone is present in higher than normal amounts to accommodate the fetus. However, if progesterone levels drop, and the progesterone ratio becomes imbalanced, it would result in miscarriage, or if one is further along, contradictions, and an early birth. If during pregnancy, our hormone levels remain the same as when the body is not pregnant, that would qualify as a hormonal imbalance. If, after a woman has given birth, her hormonal levels remain the same as when she was pregnant, that would qualify as a hormonal imbalance. We are not suppose to assume that changing hormone levels during puberty or pregnancy are out of proportion, as they are not. We are suppose to look at hormones in the context of each time frame, to see whether hormone levels are proper as they are needed.
Same thing applies to puberty. The secretion of the hormone estrogen increases during puberty, as does progesterone. When those two hormones, together with prolactin, HGH, and prostaglandins, are properly balanced, they cause the breast tissue to expand with fat deposition, development of the lobules, and alveoli, etc. After that, when the hormones have time to settle, estrogen and progesterone no longer occur at the same time, but rather work in a scheduled time frame. Neither hormone is ever completely shut off, but adjusts its amount in accordance of where the body is at in its cycle. If, after puberty ended, estrogen and progesterone would continue to secrete at the same time, as during puberty, a typical womans breasts would never stop growing, until she would reach the proportions of Chelsea Charms or Maxi Mounds.
If we want to look at it from another angle, because estrogen and progesterone lower down during various points of the cycle, they are never in complete balance with one another; one hormone will always be greater than the other at its respective point. This helps to produce a regular menstruation cycle, so your body is fine for it, and considers this "balanced". However, for some women, one hormone takes over more than it should. The main cases appears to be estrogen taking over, even if it is progesterones time to secrete and work just before ones period is to start. That can produce an estrogen dominance effect, which results in things such as PMS, infertility, mood swings, endometriosis, increased risk of uterine and breast cancers, depression, weight gain, polycystic ovaries, acne, decreased sex drive, and many other unfortunate symptoms and conditions.
For me, being estrogen dominant, taking herbs to help stimulate more progesterone in my body has been helpful not only for PMS, but also for breast growth. Its been good in balancing out my hormone levels, or recreating a second puberty. However, I must point out that even though progesterone has been helpful for me, it it not always the key for every woman's answer to gaining bigger breasts, hence my initial post.
Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 13 2006, 4:06 PM
Well Moonkissed, thanks for going over all of that in depth, but it seems we are merely debating over different perspectives of meaning to the same word.
mad
(no login)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 28 2006, 12:28 AM
wow i am very pissed off at that man. not only does he insist that small breasts are a disability of some sort, but he says his wife's 46DD were fabulous? im sorry not only is that TOO BIG his wife was obviously fat...who the heck wears a 46 band, she must have been like 300 lbs! i do not see how that is fabulous. this guy is what is wrong with this world and part of the reason so many of us are unhappy with our natural size. maybe if men like that didnt exist, most of us would be fine with our A cups
December 11 2006 at 4:00 AM Ally (Login Ally1313)
I found an article on the internet about how the key to breast enhancement is NOT estrogen, but progesterone. All the herbs that people are taking contain phyto-estrogens, so they mimic estrogen. Estrogen is supposed to increase body fat from the belly down, not the boobs...
http://www.totalityofbeing.com/ArchivedBreastShape.html
He mentions that wild yam contains progesterone, but I heard that the body can't use it in that form(??). I think the best bet is progesterone cream, 100% USP grade. You're supposed to use it from about the 14th day to the 28th day or something, I'm not entirely sure.
Any feedback would be welcome!
Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 6:27 AM
Progesterone is not the main key, otherwise no woman on this board would grow a centimetre with all the phytoestrogens taken. Dr. Wong has the right idea, but his article mainly applies to women who are estrogen dominant. The key is balance between progesterone and estrogen. Too much or too little of either hormone will not make grow breasts. For those women who already have enough estrogen, then yes, progesterone would be good to balance out the estrogen. For women with enough progesterone, then estrogen would be a wise idea. There is no one-hormone-fits-all, which is why NBE is a trial and error process.
valeryblack
(Login valeryblack)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 6:44 AM
How can I find out if I'm estrogen dominant or not?
Darisha
(Login Darisha)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 7:03 AM
Hi Valeryblack, you can go to www.johnleemd.com and at the bottom of the page take the "hormone balance test" for women. You can't get a complete 100% accurate reading but you can get an idea with just some symptoms you describe in the test. Hope this helps.
valeryblack
(Login valeryblack)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 11:25 AM
thanks. It seem I have low progesterone and am estrogen dominant. Would it then be a bad idea for me to use Wonderup? Where can I buy progesterone cream? (with shipping to Europe)
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 12:34 PM
I disagree, from all the info I've gathered so far I have reasons to believe that estrogen is the main thing - usually. Any generalized claim like that one is not very accurate to begin with, cause we don't all have the same conditions in our bodies, but very diverse and opposite even - some are estrogen dominant, some defficient, some have too much progestins, some have excess angrogens, etc... In estrogen deficiency, I'm quite sure that progesterone compared to estrogen is the main imbalance that stalls development of breasts. In this case it's good to introduce estrogenic agents into the body, while introducing strong progestins like in certain BCP can stall NBE. I believe this is my case and I'll be able to test this hypothesis when I start red clover in my routine, which is estrogenic and also gets rid of excess progesterone.
Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 5:29 PM
I disagree as well. I have heard and am also convinced that IMBALANCE is the key to growth. Think about the times when growth naturally occurs: puberty, pregnancy. I would venture to say that at periods when we are neither experiencing puberty nor pregnancy our hormones are at balanced or near balanced state. I'm no expert, though.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 7:14 PM
Well depends what you call balance. As far as I know the levels of hormones don't drop after puberty (but after menopuse), so we are in the same balance. I think balance would sooner be the key to growth, balance as some standard values at which hormones do their job, which includes make breasts grow to a certian size determined by genes and other factors. Imbalance are levels at which hormones don't do their job optimally and so hinder development.
Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 11 2006, 10:15 PM
4pomegranate: I am curious: what makes you believe that during puberty or pregnancy, our bodies become hormonally imbalanced?
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 3:27 AM
I read the progesterone article as well as a bunch of other articles about NBE and hormones...it seems that maybe we need to be taking a lot of BOTH phytoestrogens AND natural progesterones. But the whole hormone thing is still really confusing to me.
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 5:17 AM
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree I've been taking estrogen rich plants for the past YEAR and have grown absolutely nothing. All my hormone levels were whack, I ended up taking lots of estrogen and very little progesterone, and have nothing to show for it. The doctor finally prescribed a progesterone pill for me to take and we'll just have to see if I grow. All I hear is that progesterone is responsible for upper body growth (boobs) while estrogen is responsible for lower body growth (hips).
Ally
(Login Ally1313)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 5:38 AM
I know that my estrogen level is normal, but I have no idea about my progesterone levels. I am going to take more progesterone-rich herbs, and probably very little estrogen rich stuff. It IS also true that most women are estrogen-dominant, so upping progesterone would help.
But then why is it that during the 14th or so day of your menstrual cycle, progesterone levels SPIKE, estrogen levels decrease, and that's when your boobs tend to swell?
I don't know, now I'm confused (sigh).
Anonymous
(Login organic_angel)
Balance, not dominance is key
December 12 2006, 8:40 AM
Hello organic boobie friends,
I have to add to this thread and say that I have very open communication with my naturopath about my nbe quest. This is a combination of her medical knowledge; mine; and my personal experience.
BOTH estrogen and progesterin are needed for breast growth and health. Too much of either, will stall any routine. That is evident in why one person's routine can be successful with much lower amounts of something that may have mostly or all phytoestrogen ingredients, and for others, this sends them into estrogen overload. This is especially true for menapausal women. ALL hormones decline when in perimenapause and menapause. Ovaries secrete estrogen; progesterin and testosterone. They all decrease with age and especially when entering menapause.
That being said, this is my reasoning for starting my latest routine with BO being the main ingredient/factor. BO affects your ovaries, which again are responsible for balancing ALL necessary hormones. Another thought....PM states to use it during a particular phase of your cycle. Hormone Balance. Phytoestrogens are probably most successful for younger women, while glandulars I believe would be successful for young and older women alike. I started my routine today as a matter of fact, however, I've been taking homeopathic testosterone (temporary) to kick down my extreme estrogen dominance. I have been massaging with cocoa butter and vit E, while waiting for BO and other goodies to arrive. I have to tell you, that in the 10 days I've been doing this.....I've plumped up. Most noticeably on the sides and the nipple area. I also have had a couple slight "twinges" deep in my nipple area. And this is without having started my routine. This makes me very hopeful, and it seems to also justify that hormone balance theory as well.
So, I personally think balance is key, and age factoring into that, and what your body is or isn't responding to. I stumbled across a very comprehensive online hormone profile test not too long ago. I'll see if I can rediscover it and pass it on. It's much, much more indepth than any of the ones I've seen mentioned here.
Organic Boobie Blessings to All
Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 3:47 PM
Like I said before, I'm no expert. Our hormones do shift during pregnancy, that much is obvious to all of us, both progesterone and estrogen are produced in mass amounts, creating an "imbalance" in our bodies it does not experience at any other natural time. There are more hormones to consider also when thinking about balance, like testosterone. I really do not think that we would grow if these hormones were all at an equal ordinary level. There's more information on how our hormones shift during pregnancy here:
http://www.paternityangel.com/Articles_z...sIntro.htm
Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 12 2006, 4:01 PM
Oh yeah, and I forgot to add in puberty. Puberty is when our bodies suddennly introduce an increase of hormones, resulting in growth. This increase is an "imbalance" to what our bodies were used to. Isn't that what we're trying to do here? Give our bodies a boost to start a change similar to that first time?
Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 13 2006, 3:42 AM
Aly- breast swelling is a sign of estrogen being present where it should not be. Technically, when progesterone and estradiol levels are balanced, breast swelling and tenderness should be gone. If breast pain or swelling occurs, it means estrogen is dominant over the progesterone, and is taking over the house, so to speak.
Moonkissed
(Login Moonkissed)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 13 2006, 3:49 AM
4pomegranate- I understand what you mean, but technically, during times such as puberty or pregnancy, our bodies do not become imbalanced. In fact, the amount of hormone secretions rise to keep the body in balance, otherwise, it would cause all sorts of problems. Increasing hormones during puberty or pregnancy does not mean imbalance, but rather a sign that ones body is working properly. The amount of each hormone produced is at its normal level when looked at during the situation of each expectant change (puberty or pregnancy). Each hormone interacts with or stimulates another hormone to a certain degree.
Take pregnancy, for example. Progesterone is present in higher than normal amounts to accommodate the fetus. However, if progesterone levels drop, and the progesterone ratio becomes imbalanced, it would result in miscarriage, or if one is further along, contradictions, and an early birth. If during pregnancy, our hormone levels remain the same as when the body is not pregnant, that would qualify as a hormonal imbalance. If, after a woman has given birth, her hormonal levels remain the same as when she was pregnant, that would qualify as a hormonal imbalance. We are not suppose to assume that changing hormone levels during puberty or pregnancy are out of proportion, as they are not. We are suppose to look at hormones in the context of each time frame, to see whether hormone levels are proper as they are needed.
Same thing applies to puberty. The secretion of the hormone estrogen increases during puberty, as does progesterone. When those two hormones, together with prolactin, HGH, and prostaglandins, are properly balanced, they cause the breast tissue to expand with fat deposition, development of the lobules, and alveoli, etc. After that, when the hormones have time to settle, estrogen and progesterone no longer occur at the same time, but rather work in a scheduled time frame. Neither hormone is ever completely shut off, but adjusts its amount in accordance of where the body is at in its cycle. If, after puberty ended, estrogen and progesterone would continue to secrete at the same time, as during puberty, a typical womans breasts would never stop growing, until she would reach the proportions of Chelsea Charms or Maxi Mounds.
If we want to look at it from another angle, because estrogen and progesterone lower down during various points of the cycle, they are never in complete balance with one another; one hormone will always be greater than the other at its respective point. This helps to produce a regular menstruation cycle, so your body is fine for it, and considers this "balanced". However, for some women, one hormone takes over more than it should. The main cases appears to be estrogen taking over, even if it is progesterones time to secrete and work just before ones period is to start. That can produce an estrogen dominance effect, which results in things such as PMS, infertility, mood swings, endometriosis, increased risk of uterine and breast cancers, depression, weight gain, polycystic ovaries, acne, decreased sex drive, and many other unfortunate symptoms and conditions.
For me, being estrogen dominant, taking herbs to help stimulate more progesterone in my body has been helpful not only for PMS, but also for breast growth. Its been good in balancing out my hormone levels, or recreating a second puberty. However, I must point out that even though progesterone has been helpful for me, it it not always the key for every woman's answer to gaining bigger breasts, hence my initial post.
Anonymous
(Login 4pomegranate)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 13 2006, 4:06 PM
Well Moonkissed, thanks for going over all of that in depth, but it seems we are merely debating over different perspectives of meaning to the same word.
mad
(no login)
Re: Progesterone is key, not estrogen!
December 28 2006, 12:28 AM
wow i am very pissed off at that man. not only does he insist that small breasts are a disability of some sort, but he says his wife's 46DD were fabulous? im sorry not only is that TOO BIG his wife was obviously fat...who the heck wears a 46 band, she must have been like 300 lbs! i do not see how that is fabulous. this guy is what is wrong with this world and part of the reason so many of us are unhappy with our natural size. maybe if men like that didnt exist, most of us would be fine with our A cups