12-05-2011, 09:56
Wild Yam or Red Clover
December 10 2008 at 7:02 PM wantogrow (no login)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am already taking SP, FG and Fennel, but would like to add Wild Yam to the routine (Greenbush Kit #2).
Others recommend the same, but instead of WY, using Red Clover.
Which one do I use - WY or RC?
I am also on Yasmin BCP, but hear it should still be ok. I need some serious growth here and would like to see at least some results in the near future.
Thanks.
Author Reply
Sunshine
(no login) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 10 2008, 8:58 PM
Hi,
I don't know much about WY or Red clover, but awhile ago, there was a post on here about Pammy's program from the BE board that other people apparently had some success with as well (sorry I don't have any stats for you). She took Fenugreek, Saw Palmetto, Wild Yam, and EPO and Flaxseed oil, so it's pretty similar to what you're taking.
Sorry if that's not helpful at all.. just when I read you the herbs you're taking, I was reminded of Pammy's program.
If you're interested, she took 3000 mg of each but only slowly ramped up to 3000mg. Not sure what her starting dosasages were.
I don't if anyone over here has tried that program though.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 11 2008, 12:02 AM
If you made a search, you would find out that the prevailing opinion nowdays is that WY doesn't do anything for NBE.
wendyg
(Login wendy64) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 11 2008, 8:29 PM
Can all these herbs demadge your homornel balance?
HDChick
(Login HDChick) Red Clover December 12 2008, 1:44 AM
contains testosterone I take it when I feel wimpy - like during PMS - makes me think more
like a man =)
Yes these herbs can mess you up - do your research before getting anything
Edit Message Delete Message
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 12 2008, 12:47 PM
RC contains testosterone?? *eyes pop out*
It's weird it helps for PMS cause I though it had the ability to block progesterone... Huh I think I'm mixing up everything now, I'm confused...
Edit Message Delete Message
laisegirl
(Login laisegirl) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 12 2008, 1:49 PM
ok i am with moon, i have researched herbs(obviously not as well as i thiought) and don't recall reading that RC contains testosterone....hmm....guess i better go back and reread.......dang, there is that confusion again......
Edit Message Delete Message
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 13 2008, 9:24 AM
I was wrong about RC blocking progesterone - it's supposed to be capable of up regulating the progesterone receptor and hence increasing progesteronic effect. Makes sense what HD is experiencing now, it's probably because of progesterone, not testosterone.
Edit Message Delete Message
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 13 2008, 10:06 PM
Ahem, just to add to the red cover confusion...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The six most potent common herbs to bind progesterone receptors were oregano (Origanum vulgare), verbena (Verbena species), turmeric, thyme, red clover, and damania (Turnera difussa).
Herbs with anti-progesterone activity were red clover, licorice, goldenseal, pennyroyal (Mentha pulegium), nutmeg (Myristica fragrans), and mandrake (Podophyllum peltatum).
Most progesterone-binding herbs were not active or were anti-progestogenic in the body (such as pennyroyal).
Wild yam (Dioscoria villosa) increased progesterone receptor binding in 20-30% of women, but appeared to suppress progesterone. Researchers concluded that diosgenin, the yam compound used to synthesize progesterone, “did not convert to progesterone in the body.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This was taken from a post I made in the information on herbs section titled herbs that compete with female hormones.
Red clover is anti-progesteronic according to this report. Yes it binds to the progesterone receptor but it actually interferes with progesterone in the body. Wild yam also suppresses progesterone even though in 20-30% of the women it increased progesterone receptor binding.
The only herb that I know of that actually enhances progesterone is vitex. All others either do not effect progesterone or interfere with it.
Now as far as red clover increasing testosterone. That one is new to me. I would love to read that report if anyone locates it.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Edit Message Delete Message
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 14 2008, 1:37 AM
Yeah I thoguht it soundsd fishy. But there is still the bit that RC up-regulates progesterone receptor, which means causes more of it to be synthetised and expressed, or so I understand. Maybe this effect is masked by its binding to the receptors? And then what HDChick is experiencing really make no sense!
Edit Message Delete Message
HDChick
(Login HDChick) It's everywhere December 14 2008, 5:03 PM
Hi Ladies- Sorry about taking so long to respond to this I didn't realize it was causing controversy and confusion - my apologies! Please note * I was extremely weepy and depressed during and before my period and it was extremely painful and heavy. I believe from overdosing on Estrogens. Good grief commercials were making me teary eyed and I just couldn't function normally. So having read up on Men* I found Red Clover: It's being classified by body builders as the legal steriod.
This is all Copied Information:
Red clover contains high quantities of plant-based estrogens called isoflavones that may improve menopausal symptoms on women, reduce the risk of bone loss, and lower the risk of heart disease by improving blood pressure and possibly by increasing HDL cholesterol (the "good" kind of cholesterol).
Isn’t estrogen the female hormone…how can that build Muscle?
GOOD QUESTION: Large amounts are detrimental to bodybuilders…but small amounts can actually turn on testosterone production via a complex feed back loop mechanism. Phytoestrogens act as aromatase inhibitors at low concentrations and are estrogenic at higher concentrations.
Here is one of the articles I read a couple months ago- so glad I was able to find it again.
How To Boost Testosterone Levels Using Phyto-hormones…and avoid Man Boobs
*PERFECT! LOL*
Readers may recall in Australian Ironman Vol 5, # 2, my article, titled NATURAL BREAKTHROUGH “GET BIG, STRONG AND LEAN WITH TESTOSTERONE-LEGALLY” which was a world bodybuilding scoop.
Through talking to a head research scientist formally from the CSIRO, I discovered that Red Clover contained 4-Androstene –3, 17 – Dione (Androstene), a Testosterone booster classed as a steroid by Australian Government authorities.
Well that was 12 months ago and lots of things have been discovered and developed since then.
So, just how effective is Red Clover as a bodybuilding supplement. For some people it is very effective but only for a short period. I mentioned in the aforementioned article that I thought then, that the amount of available 17 Beta-Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase – the liver enzyme which converts Androstene to Testosterone – could be a limiting factor.
This is why most people using Red Clover for the first time experience a real “head rush” type feeling after drinking 20 ml of liquid extract (1:1 ratio, ie equivalent of 1 gram of dried herb in each 1 ml of extract) on an empty stomach.
Red Clover is taken immediately before training to supplement your natural response to weight training which is to boost Testosterone. The “head rush” type experience, I think, is a combination of a surge of Testosterone and Nor-Epinephrine.
The Androstene, Quercetin, IsoQuercetin, Genistin, Daidzine and Biochanins contained within the Red Clover all turn on Testosterone production. Xanthines stimulate the release of Nor-Epinephrine (adrenalin) which powers you through your workout. Nor-epinephrine also stimulates the release of Growth Hormone and is a potent fat burner (Caffeine, a methylxanthine is a member of the Xanthine family).
Both these effects seem to diminish after 21 days. This could be explained by tolerance to the Xanthines and/or inability of the body to convert Androstene into Testosterone due to low levels of the necessary Enzyme-17 Beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase.
An empty stomach is also critical. Even people who get great results on an empty stomach, can get bad results when Red Clover is taken on a full stomach.
How To Cycle Red Clover
Cycle 3 weeks on, 3 weeks off (take for 3 weeks then have 3 weeks break).
Only take before workouts and preferably no more than 3 times per week.
** He's afraid of growing man boobs!!!*****
Caution
If you start getting any signs of Gynecomastia (Man Tits) discontinue use immediately.
From 61 bodybuilders that I have tested, 4 have shown signs of Gynecomastia after using Red Clover and/or Tribulus Terrestris. Other factors could have caused these cases of Man Boobs but 4 cases seems to be a bit more than co-incidental.
Stacking Tribulus Terrestris with Red Clover seems to enhance the effects of both. Tribulus Terrestris stimulates Leutinizing Hormone (L.H.), which sends a message to your testicles to produce more Testosterone. Red Clover supplies the building blocks for this Testosterone.
How To Take Tribulus
2 grams or equivalent of dried fruit and root per 20 kg bodyweight.
Eg. If you weigh: 60-79 kg take 6 grams per day.
80-99 kg take 8 grams per day.
100-119 kg take 10 grams per day.
Take at the same time as Red Clover on an empty stomach.
Now, what if we could add something else that had the potential to help the body convert Androstene to Testosterone.
Wild Mexican Yam (which contains Diosgenin) may assist the conversion of Androstene to Testosterone by priming the liver for the conversion process. However, the combination of these plants may also boost Estriol (Estrogen) levels in the body, causing (at worst) Man Tits or (at least) just water retention and increased fat storage.
Edit Message Delete Message
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 14 2008, 5:26 PM
Thanks HDchick,
That was very informative. I have found the bodybuilding sites often have some great information.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Edit Message Delete Message
Wantogrow
(no login) Wild Yam or Red Clover December 15 2008, 5:10 AM
Sorry, I must sound very dumb now, but I still don't know which one to take with my program.
Which one should go better with what I am doing?
Edit Message Delete Message
HDChick
(Login HDChick) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 16 2008, 3:01 AM
Since you are taking the SP I would def go with adding Red Clover as it has some
fat burning qualities and SP is a fat collector along with Wild Yam- which both can be great if you can get it to go to the boobs not the butt and tummy, as others explain.
It's really a matter of watching your body closely to see how "you" are responding. Take measurements from everywhere to make sure nothing else is getting bigger too, start slow.
xxxooo
HD
Edit Message Delete Message
wendyg
(Login wendy64) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 16 2008, 4:31 PM
I started my period yesterday and have started taking RC today,been drinking Fennel tea 3 times a day,massaging with fennel and fenugreek in my mosturiser,and using my breast massager/enhancer.Should I be ok taking RC,or should I change it for some thing else?
wendyg
(Login wendy64) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 16 2008, 5:04 PM
Found this about Red Clover.
http://menopause-herbs.femhealth.net/red...ffects.htm
December 10 2008 at 7:02 PM wantogrow (no login)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am already taking SP, FG and Fennel, but would like to add Wild Yam to the routine (Greenbush Kit #2).
Others recommend the same, but instead of WY, using Red Clover.
Which one do I use - WY or RC?
I am also on Yasmin BCP, but hear it should still be ok. I need some serious growth here and would like to see at least some results in the near future.
Thanks.
Author Reply
Sunshine
(no login) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 10 2008, 8:58 PM
Hi,
I don't know much about WY or Red clover, but awhile ago, there was a post on here about Pammy's program from the BE board that other people apparently had some success with as well (sorry I don't have any stats for you). She took Fenugreek, Saw Palmetto, Wild Yam, and EPO and Flaxseed oil, so it's pretty similar to what you're taking.
Sorry if that's not helpful at all.. just when I read you the herbs you're taking, I was reminded of Pammy's program.
If you're interested, she took 3000 mg of each but only slowly ramped up to 3000mg. Not sure what her starting dosasages were.
I don't if anyone over here has tried that program though.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 11 2008, 12:02 AM
If you made a search, you would find out that the prevailing opinion nowdays is that WY doesn't do anything for NBE.
wendyg
(Login wendy64) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 11 2008, 8:29 PM
Can all these herbs demadge your homornel balance?
HDChick
(Login HDChick) Red Clover December 12 2008, 1:44 AM
contains testosterone I take it when I feel wimpy - like during PMS - makes me think more
like a man =)
Yes these herbs can mess you up - do your research before getting anything
Edit Message Delete Message
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 12 2008, 12:47 PM
RC contains testosterone?? *eyes pop out*
It's weird it helps for PMS cause I though it had the ability to block progesterone... Huh I think I'm mixing up everything now, I'm confused...
Edit Message Delete Message
laisegirl
(Login laisegirl) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 12 2008, 1:49 PM
ok i am with moon, i have researched herbs(obviously not as well as i thiought) and don't recall reading that RC contains testosterone....hmm....guess i better go back and reread.......dang, there is that confusion again......
Edit Message Delete Message
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 13 2008, 9:24 AM
I was wrong about RC blocking progesterone - it's supposed to be capable of up regulating the progesterone receptor and hence increasing progesteronic effect. Makes sense what HD is experiencing now, it's probably because of progesterone, not testosterone.
Edit Message Delete Message
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 13 2008, 10:06 PM
Ahem, just to add to the red cover confusion...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The six most potent common herbs to bind progesterone receptors were oregano (Origanum vulgare), verbena (Verbena species), turmeric, thyme, red clover, and damania (Turnera difussa).
Herbs with anti-progesterone activity were red clover, licorice, goldenseal, pennyroyal (Mentha pulegium), nutmeg (Myristica fragrans), and mandrake (Podophyllum peltatum).
Most progesterone-binding herbs were not active or were anti-progestogenic in the body (such as pennyroyal).
Wild yam (Dioscoria villosa) increased progesterone receptor binding in 20-30% of women, but appeared to suppress progesterone. Researchers concluded that diosgenin, the yam compound used to synthesize progesterone, “did not convert to progesterone in the body.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This was taken from a post I made in the information on herbs section titled herbs that compete with female hormones.
Red clover is anti-progesteronic according to this report. Yes it binds to the progesterone receptor but it actually interferes with progesterone in the body. Wild yam also suppresses progesterone even though in 20-30% of the women it increased progesterone receptor binding.
The only herb that I know of that actually enhances progesterone is vitex. All others either do not effect progesterone or interfere with it.
Now as far as red clover increasing testosterone. That one is new to me. I would love to read that report if anyone locates it.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Edit Message Delete Message
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 14 2008, 1:37 AM
Yeah I thoguht it soundsd fishy. But there is still the bit that RC up-regulates progesterone receptor, which means causes more of it to be synthetised and expressed, or so I understand. Maybe this effect is masked by its binding to the receptors? And then what HDChick is experiencing really make no sense!
Edit Message Delete Message
HDChick
(Login HDChick) It's everywhere December 14 2008, 5:03 PM
Hi Ladies- Sorry about taking so long to respond to this I didn't realize it was causing controversy and confusion - my apologies! Please note * I was extremely weepy and depressed during and before my period and it was extremely painful and heavy. I believe from overdosing on Estrogens. Good grief commercials were making me teary eyed and I just couldn't function normally. So having read up on Men* I found Red Clover: It's being classified by body builders as the legal steriod.
This is all Copied Information:
Red clover contains high quantities of plant-based estrogens called isoflavones that may improve menopausal symptoms on women, reduce the risk of bone loss, and lower the risk of heart disease by improving blood pressure and possibly by increasing HDL cholesterol (the "good" kind of cholesterol).
Isn’t estrogen the female hormone…how can that build Muscle?
GOOD QUESTION: Large amounts are detrimental to bodybuilders…but small amounts can actually turn on testosterone production via a complex feed back loop mechanism. Phytoestrogens act as aromatase inhibitors at low concentrations and are estrogenic at higher concentrations.
Here is one of the articles I read a couple months ago- so glad I was able to find it again.
How To Boost Testosterone Levels Using Phyto-hormones…and avoid Man Boobs
*PERFECT! LOL*
Readers may recall in Australian Ironman Vol 5, # 2, my article, titled NATURAL BREAKTHROUGH “GET BIG, STRONG AND LEAN WITH TESTOSTERONE-LEGALLY” which was a world bodybuilding scoop.
Through talking to a head research scientist formally from the CSIRO, I discovered that Red Clover contained 4-Androstene –3, 17 – Dione (Androstene), a Testosterone booster classed as a steroid by Australian Government authorities.
Well that was 12 months ago and lots of things have been discovered and developed since then.
So, just how effective is Red Clover as a bodybuilding supplement. For some people it is very effective but only for a short period. I mentioned in the aforementioned article that I thought then, that the amount of available 17 Beta-Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase – the liver enzyme which converts Androstene to Testosterone – could be a limiting factor.
This is why most people using Red Clover for the first time experience a real “head rush” type feeling after drinking 20 ml of liquid extract (1:1 ratio, ie equivalent of 1 gram of dried herb in each 1 ml of extract) on an empty stomach.
Red Clover is taken immediately before training to supplement your natural response to weight training which is to boost Testosterone. The “head rush” type experience, I think, is a combination of a surge of Testosterone and Nor-Epinephrine.
The Androstene, Quercetin, IsoQuercetin, Genistin, Daidzine and Biochanins contained within the Red Clover all turn on Testosterone production. Xanthines stimulate the release of Nor-Epinephrine (adrenalin) which powers you through your workout. Nor-epinephrine also stimulates the release of Growth Hormone and is a potent fat burner (Caffeine, a methylxanthine is a member of the Xanthine family).
Both these effects seem to diminish after 21 days. This could be explained by tolerance to the Xanthines and/or inability of the body to convert Androstene into Testosterone due to low levels of the necessary Enzyme-17 Beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase.
An empty stomach is also critical. Even people who get great results on an empty stomach, can get bad results when Red Clover is taken on a full stomach.
How To Cycle Red Clover
Cycle 3 weeks on, 3 weeks off (take for 3 weeks then have 3 weeks break).
Only take before workouts and preferably no more than 3 times per week.
** He's afraid of growing man boobs!!!*****
Caution
If you start getting any signs of Gynecomastia (Man Tits) discontinue use immediately.
From 61 bodybuilders that I have tested, 4 have shown signs of Gynecomastia after using Red Clover and/or Tribulus Terrestris. Other factors could have caused these cases of Man Boobs but 4 cases seems to be a bit more than co-incidental.
Stacking Tribulus Terrestris with Red Clover seems to enhance the effects of both. Tribulus Terrestris stimulates Leutinizing Hormone (L.H.), which sends a message to your testicles to produce more Testosterone. Red Clover supplies the building blocks for this Testosterone.
How To Take Tribulus
2 grams or equivalent of dried fruit and root per 20 kg bodyweight.
Eg. If you weigh: 60-79 kg take 6 grams per day.
80-99 kg take 8 grams per day.
100-119 kg take 10 grams per day.
Take at the same time as Red Clover on an empty stomach.
Now, what if we could add something else that had the potential to help the body convert Androstene to Testosterone.
Wild Mexican Yam (which contains Diosgenin) may assist the conversion of Androstene to Testosterone by priming the liver for the conversion process. However, the combination of these plants may also boost Estriol (Estrogen) levels in the body, causing (at worst) Man Tits or (at least) just water retention and increased fat storage.
Edit Message Delete Message
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 14 2008, 5:26 PM
Thanks HDchick,
That was very informative. I have found the bodybuilding sites often have some great information.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Edit Message Delete Message
Wantogrow
(no login) Wild Yam or Red Clover December 15 2008, 5:10 AM
Sorry, I must sound very dumb now, but I still don't know which one to take with my program.
Which one should go better with what I am doing?
Edit Message Delete Message
HDChick
(Login HDChick) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 16 2008, 3:01 AM
Since you are taking the SP I would def go with adding Red Clover as it has some
fat burning qualities and SP is a fat collector along with Wild Yam- which both can be great if you can get it to go to the boobs not the butt and tummy, as others explain.
It's really a matter of watching your body closely to see how "you" are responding. Take measurements from everywhere to make sure nothing else is getting bigger too, start slow.
xxxooo
HD
Edit Message Delete Message
wendyg
(Login wendy64) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 16 2008, 4:31 PM
I started my period yesterday and have started taking RC today,been drinking Fennel tea 3 times a day,massaging with fennel and fenugreek in my mosturiser,and using my breast massager/enhancer.Should I be ok taking RC,or should I change it for some thing else?
wendyg
(Login wendy64) Re: Wild Yam or Red Clover December 16 2008, 5:04 PM
Found this about Red Clover.
http://menopause-herbs.femhealth.net/red...ffects.htm