[shortcake]

My attempt at NBE (the herbal part of it, anyway) doesn't seem to be going so well this time. My period started this last Friday. Since I hadn't received my WonderUp yet I decided to start ramping up with Fenugreek caps (610mg). I realize now that I ramped up too quickly, but regardless, this has never happened to me before and I've always ramped up at about this speed. Anyway, on Friday I took one FG around noon when I first saw I had started, and took another at night. I felt totally fine. The next day I took one FG in the morning, one Hops (310mg) in the afternoon, and another FG at night. About an hour and a half after taking the Hops I started developing a mild headache that eventually turned into a pretty horrific one that lasted throughout the night. I took pain relievers and it didn't even help. I also felt very "out of it" and foggy and lethargic. I know that those are considered somewhat "normal" side-effects of Hops but I was shocked that just one 310mg capsule of it hit me that hard. I can drink 2 tall beers and not feel that out of it, and I'm a lightweight! Beer also never gives me a headache.

So the next day, to be sure it was the Hops that had caused it, I did the same thing. I felt basically fine in the morning, took one FG and still felt fine hours after. Took the Hops in the afternoon and the exact same thing happened. My WU arrived the next day, so I took one FG in the morning, one WU in the afternoon, and one WU at night. The headache was still there by night time but was better. I was hoping it was working its way out of my system. Yesterday I took one WU in the morning and 2 at supper time, hoping that taking them with food would help. My headache wasn't too bad, but I just have this general feeling of being ill. I have aches and pains throughout my body like I do when I get the flu, but I'm not sick. The headache comes and goes and is not as strong, but feels like the type of headache I get when I'm sick as well.

I've never reacted from herbs this way and I've used them a few different times. Even the ones that were way too strong for me (PM) didn't affect me like this right away and none of the herbs ever made me feel flu-ish like this. The only factor that has changed for me is that I'm on birth control pills (Beyaz) and as far as I can figure that has to be the culprit. Since I'm not taking them for birth control purposes I have decided that this will be my last month on them. My boyfriend doesn't like the idea of me taking them anyway and I was only taking them because I thought I had a hormonal imbalance that was causing issues for me, but thanks to some great information beachbumbythesea has posted, I now have a different, natural route I can follow. I toyed with the idea of just not finishing my pack and contininuing on with the herbs, since I've only taken the first two pills, but this would obviously not be the best time to be confusing my hormones since I'm trying to keep them balanced for NBE!

So as far as I've come up with, these are my options:

Finish this cycle of BCps and press on with WU in hopes I will eventually start feeling better at some point in my cycle.

Finish this cycle of BCPs, stop taking WU and save it for when I've stopped the BCPs, and resume with only taking Fenugreek (which didn't seem to give me a problem) and drinking Fennel tea.

Finish this cycle of BCPs, stop taking all NBE herbs and start taking one to balance hormones, like Dong Quai or Maca through the rest of this cycle so my body is more ready for the other herbs once I'm off of BCPs. Continue Noogling, massage, and hypnosis. This one I'm not too sure about... Would a natural hormone-balancing herb even work on someone who was on synthetic hormones?

I would really appreciate any help on this. It's never happened to me before and I don't know what the best thing for me to do is. Today I decided I'd take 1 WU in the morning, afternoon, and evening to see if I tolerate that better. I'm a little reluctant to stop taking it because I've already got pains and light tingling in my breasts, but I'm trying not to be impatient and instead to do what's best for my body. Which is obviously telling me something's not right!

[Isabelle]

Hi Shortcake,

I just wrote up for Susan why this happens:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34147#pid34147
Only in her program, the phyto-estrogen is PM instead of hops.

Ramping up hops and FG at the same time is tough. I did hops before FG this time around, and got a lot of hops trouble: sleepy, rash, cough, depressed, difficulty coping with stress, for over a week before I could start FG. I was thinking of ramping FG first next time around. You can still try that.

If your bcp is a combination pill, the estrogen half adds up to the hops. Looks like you take huge amounts for a start...

[shortcake]

Thanks so much for the fast reply, Isabelle! I am on a combination pill, so I guess that explains it! Your reply to Susan really makes sense.

So do you suggest that I stop taking WonderUp and only continue with the Fenugreek for the rest of this cycle?

[Isabelle]

Noo, Shortcake,

Of course not. I think you only need to change the timing during the day. Again, I already discussed what happened with Susan:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34154#pid34154
This map might help you to get an idea of how much time you need to allow for conversion of one steroid into another:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steroidogenesis.svg
It will take FG about 5 hours to decrease SHBG. So 5-6 hours after FG is not a good time for hops. I take FG before lunch, and hops two hours after dinner.

In formulas like WU, the hops/FG balance is usually stretched by adding flax and oats. I wrote here
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=33892&highlight=flax+AND+oats#pid33892
how that works. But oats also decrease SHBG, and flax increases it. So I would take WU the last thing before bedtime, to use the night to balance SHBG.

[shortcake]

Thank you! I will definitely give that a try starting tomorrow. Oddly enough I felt quite a bit better today as far as aches and pains and energy level goes, but still not completely my "normal" self. I will report back as to how that works for me! Oh! One more question about that - I'm currently taking my BCPs around 7:00pm each night. Since you've suggested I take my WU before bed, do you think I need to change the time I take my BCPs to sometime in the morning? I don't know if there would be any need for that.

This is a little off-topic but something that I've been wondering about... Would you see a need for me to add Wild Yam to my program? WU does not contain that and I read in one of your replies to someone else recently that WY is good for women who have breastfed. I breastfed my (now 6 year old) son for six months. Just wondering what your thoughts on that are.

Thanks again!

[Isabelle]

Hi Shortcake,

If you avoid 5-6 hours after FG, any time will do for the bcp.

I normally take Wahaika's advice for the choice between a hops and a WY program. I posted them here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9610&pid=34168#pid34168

Wahaika advises WY for women who were their target size during breastfeeding. It's not a phyto-estrogen, but it blocks the metabolism of estrone to 16α-hydroxyestrone. It does not block the metabolism of estrone to 2-hydroxyestrone, so the metabolism of estrogens is not totally blocked, but slowed down.

My understanding of the logic is this. You have been pregnant, have given birth, and breastfed. So you body knows how to make estrogens. You don't really need a phyto-estrogen. Just a little something to keep the estrogen level up will do. That's WY.

Hops is a phyto-estrogen and an anti-androgen. The estrogen gave you the headaches, but as you already experienced, you'll get used to it. Just don't ramp too fast. The anti-androgen is the one to watch out for. I found this good info about the disadvantages of too much anti-androgen:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=31857&highlight=dht#pid31857

Chances are you'll not be your normal self as long as you take hops. What I do is take it only 1-2 hours before bedtime, and use maca root with it. At least that brings the libido back. If you don't want the butt, take oats instead of maca. But then oats increases libido by decreasing SHBG. You'll need flax to up SHBG again, after you don't need the libido any more for the rest of the day.

An all-in-one-pill formula like WU throws this all together. You may still need some of the individual ingredients to tweak it. That is, if you want to decide for yourself how your life will look after WU.

That said, I'm a great fan of hops. I don't need to worry about breakouts, hair loss, dry skin on my legs and oily skin around my nose, facial and body hair, aggression, inappropriate sex drive, sudden urges to take up a hobby like plane spotting, and the need to make my mark on every street corner.

I once added one bottle of WY to my hops regimen, but it didn't make much of a difference. The other way round, I don't know. It may be useful to add a little hops to a WY program if you need more estrogen. You can also cycle: hops for first half, WY for second.