[Nila]

The supplement witch hunt has hit the US. This is a good (short) explanation of what will become illegal under the new FDA supplement guidelines:
http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/health/ne...SweQ5kbqU5

You can vote against it in the linked page, until September 30th.

Hi Isabelle,

can you please make a separate thread about this?

I already voted, but don't think a lot of people will see this, where it is.

[Isabelle]

Thank you Nila,

The thread is here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10068&pid=36837#pid36837

I saw you already voted

[Isabelle]

As usual, Susan is right.

I know too little about liver cleanses to just start one. Besides, what could be wrong with my liver? Eve M continued a program like mine for 18 months without breaks. And what am I using? A multivitamin, a kitchen herb, a beer flavor, and tortilla flour. If I need to be nice to my liver, I better look somewhere else in my diet.

So today I stocked up on hops and maca. I went to www.jacob-hooy.nl in Amsterdam to buy 200 g dried hops cones for € 7.42. And then to www.vanderpigge.nl in Haarlem to buy 300 g maca flour for € 16.95. It's called "Active maca powder bio", from Mattisson, and it's sold in a nice plastic container with a screw lid. I know I can do better on the price if I buy it in a 250 g plastic bag, but I wanted the exact same product as last time. I am definitely growing now, so I want no changes to the program.

I started hops on July 5th, and it will run out tonight. That's 204 g in 80 days, so my average dose was 2,550 mg. The hops I have now should get me to the end of December, and the maca to early December.

[Pansy-Mae]

Isabelle,
How much MACA are you taking? I had a quick look back but this thread has got so huge its impossible to find any thing in it now!
I still keep wondering about it.

I'm also starting the SP again, really to test an idea I've had. It may be barking mad but it goes something like this: Since I had my months break from PM and SP back in May-June, I've been struggling to find the right level to keep the growing pains 'live'. Tenderness and sensitivity to knocks are still there but not the actual pains UNLESS I keep increasing the PM dose... I started back on 1 x 500mg twice a day and the pains came back but subsided after about 3 weeks... so I upped it to 2 x500mg twice a day and the same thing happened so I went up to 3 x500mg twice a day and again the same thing happened. For all sorts of reasons, I can't continue like that, so I'm back down to 2 x500mg twice day with just the background ache. However I've realised that before the break I was on 2 x610mg SP twice a day and since I restarted I have come down to 3x 610mg a day and then 2 x610mg per day and then stopped it completely, because some others have said they didn't need it at all. Now I'm wondering if I do need it to keep the DHT at bay and if the reason I'm not getting the pains or the growth, even though I dont seem to have stalled as such, is because I dropped the SP.
As I say, that may be barking logic, but there is only one way to find out, so yesterday I started back on 2 x610mg twice day...watch this space!

[Isabelle]

Hi Pansy Mae,

I started 300 g maca on July 28, and now I have maybe 10 g left. That's 290 g in 58 days, or 5,000 mg on average. I will update it in my profile: that's where I keep my doses current.

Chrissie uses PM without SP, and increases doses if she doesn't feel anything. At high PM doses, I believe SP increases the stalling limit. The brain measures total sex hormones, and signals to stop making them with LH. On SP, you have no DHT, so your estrogens can be higher without stalling.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle how are you doing..

I have been reading about melatonin and it doesnt sound good to up the level..
http://www.ehow.com/about_5155494_effect...ation.html
It says when estrogen levels are high melatonin is low and visa versa..

I was thinking of taking it but decided not too..already tired..hehe

I too as Patsy been thinking of adding maca back but not sure.

I also read a link you posted on (I think page 9) about DHT and androgens and thinking only taking SP as needed or not sure.. my question is is SP different cause it blocks DHT..and is it different to block DHT then androgens meaning (I am having trouble understanding this and even reading that post not sure) if I use another anti androgen will that block DHT..do androgens and DHT go hand in hand.

I havent taken any anti-androgens in 2 days a so far PM alone is doing good..I actually had 2 cups of green tea and it didnt make me nauseous until the end of the second one.. I am thinking when I first was drinking it in the past I may have had more toxins since it is a form of detox plus it is estrogenic it may have upped my estrogen to dom...

one more question about SP..does it really help growth and in what way..

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

[Isabelle]

Hi Susan,

Doing fine, thank you.

Testosterone and DHT are both androgens. Testosterone brings the androgen signal to muscles and makes them grow. DHT brings the androgen signal to all other organs, including the brain.

What we call anti-androgens only suppress DHT. So the word does not say exactly what it means. It is confusing, yes.

SP does not help growth directly, but it increases the stalling limit, as I wrote in the post above this one. On SP, you can take more PM without stalling. But your dose never comes near the stalling limit.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle,

I know your sleeping by now..sweet dreams ..

I decided to add maca back for 2 reasons ..I was rereading some posts in this thread.. came to thinking I need more progesterone possibly just a small amount and the DHEA didnt realize that you run out in the ovaries and not many foods if any at all give you DHEA the only 2 I found was wild yam and soy beans.. I thought that was very interesting.. this is what I was thinking. just a few mins ago I opened up my 500mg maca and put half into mouth and closed it up..see how I feel in a few hours may take the rest..in about 2-3 hours I am due for my PM pill.. I will keep maca at 1 until my estrogen is suppose to drop then add a little more for the other half of cycle.. I think before I was taking way too much of maca and then added the FG and even though I lowered my maca near the end I think I was out of wack hormone wise well I am normally abnormal..out of wack..haha the reason to lower the PM like the chart says is I believe the maca will effect the progesterone too so I am thinking it while on progest. part of my cycle.. dont take any other phytos just 1 PM, and SP (only as needed).. I do have FG in my tita cream which is fine..durning the upping cycle of progesterone I will keep the PM (1 or possibly 2 depends on the maca) low but I will up my estrogen/progesteron/prolactin foods and teas..I feel I need maca now my symptoms are tired probably from disturbed sleep (and I did get good sleeps on maca), gas (not alot but more then I want)..I think maca gives gas but I think that is if you take too much too fast..after my wick cramp day I got 2 days of headaches almost 3 but when I drank some green tea it made me feel better (it surprised me)..I did feel really good on maca to a point then it got wick crazy..I think I started getting too much testosterone..and starting slow is important I believe will not cause the level to go hey wire..k..talk tomorrow..night.

I just found this..3 hours after I posted this post..It is very interesting about progesterone, which you probably already mentioned..

Natural Progesterone Cream can also be blocked by some herbs. According to Zava, PhD herbs used for hormonal manipulation are either estrogen stimulating, estrogen blocking, or progesterone blocking. Very few herbs are progesterone stimulating. I only know of two herbs that are progesterone stimulating. One herb is Maca used by the Peruvians for thousands of years as a fertility herb. The other herb is a Chinese herb that mimics progesterone. Chaste Berry is a LH analog that stimulates the corpus luteum to produce progesterone. It is NOT progesterone. Therefore, if the woman is older than 35 years old and usually has anovulatory menstrual cycles, then Chaste Berry will not work in this case.
http://www.hormoneimbalanced.com/plantestrogen.html ...4ht paragraph from the flower..
Two herbs that stimulate progest.. maca and and Chaste Berry.... read the whole article very interesting..

[Isabelle]

Good morning Susan,

Progesterone is not made from DHEA, so I can't see why maca would increase progesterone. How do you think the maca will affect the progesterone?

People thought for years that wild yam increases DHEA. The newer scientific literature says that it doesn't. Wild yam contains diosgenin, like fenugreek. I'll look into soy: I wasn't aware that it may increase DHEA. Where did you find that?

I don't understand green tea either. On the acne forum, some write it's an androgen, some write it's an anti-androgen. I haven't even looked into its other properties yet. I think there is a lot of confusion because spearmint is often called "green mint". Green tea or green mint tea? Many people will not notice the difference.

The site you linked is just trying to sell progesterone cream, I think. It is simply not true that very few herbs stimulate progesterone. Fennel, yucca, turmeric, thyme, and oregano contain phyto-progestins. Red clover and licorice contain phyto-estrogens as well as phyto-progestins. FG and WY contain diosgenin, which increases both estrogens and progesterone. I do agree that chaste tree berry (vitex agnus castus) does more to LH than to progesterone. Dong quai is also often mentioned as an herb with a progestinic effect, but I don't know how it works.

[beachbumbythesea]

Wow it is morning for you already... I havent gone to bed yet..morning to you Isa..

Well as for the DHEA I was saying I would take the maca to keep that steady cause you mentioned that the ovaries run out of it and DHEA and that helps the estrogen so maca raises DHEA.. as for the maca progesterone taking the maca it balances the hormones out right and they say if your estro dom. then maca will raise progest by balancing hormones hence higher level of progest if your too low and cant take the symptoms like me ..I miss having the energy boost.. so I was thinking if I have too much estrogen and not enough progest take maca and that would help the progest. as needed I think if I take low doses while taking high doses of phytos.. just sayin..going to experiment.. I think if estrogen is way to high it isnt good to out weight progest.. so hence have maca balance it..I wonder if you take more maca and less or none phytos that the progest will go higher..if so that would be good for the 2nd cycle of high progest..just a thought of mine.. it makes sense in my head..but this is MY head we are talking about...haha