[Isabelle]

I just put the FG powder in olive oil. I'll let it steep for two weeks and shake well daily. Then give it a good swirl in the kitchen blender. I plan to add the borage oil capsule when I'm using the batter: squeeze it on my chest and swallow the empty capsule - it's still gelatin

Don't know yet about making a goat's rue (galega officinalis) batter. www.jacob-hooy.nl carry the powder for only € 6.70 for 250 g. And sure, it's a great herb, especially for male NBE, because it really fights insulin resistance and abdominal fat. But I don't like the wording on some of its components in the wikipedia page about it: "toxic"

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi lled34aa,

Thank you for bringing up the zinc. I thought everything was ready for starting a ramp next month, but zinc will be running low from day 1. It will take 11 mg a day, without skipping a day, and the multi's have only 5 mg and 10 mg. So meat, chicken, or seafood every day, and maybe a zinc fortified breakfast cereal:
http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-He...fessional/

Next thing to look into is vitamin D: it's probably low too

Thanks again, really appreciate you shared this!

FYI..Wahaika mentioned about too much zinc is not good for NBE.. I will find what he wrote and come back here and edit it in this post..

OK..found it..

http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8600&highlight=zinc

[Isabelle]

Yes, I saw Wahaika's post. He's worried about taking more than 50 mg a day, but from my vitamin pills I'll get only 5 mg.

The interesting thing is that he mentions 35 mg as the average content of a multi. I'll shop around for something better than what I have now.

[Isabelle]

Another ingredient in Eve M's program that I've been wondering about is beremeal. It's available from
http://www.realfoods.co.uk/product/782/beremeal
500 g cost £ 2.48

Eve M's program is very well balanced, so there must be a reason why it's there. 100 g bere contains over 100 mcg folate:
http://www.agronomy.uhi.ac.uk/Bere%20flour.pdf
After baking, only 1/5 of that is left:
http://calorie-data.com/foods/view/11-627
Only spinach, asparagus, and broccoli contain comparable amounts of folates:
http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/folate/
Of course hair skin nails multis contain folic acid, but I'll stick to Wahaika's recommendation to eat spinach and broccoli. Preferably raw.

[Isabelle]

Hi Susan,

Thanks for bringing up the maximum dose of zinc. lled34aa posted in her program thread that zinc also lowers prolactin. 11-13 mg is OK, but 50 is too much:
http://www.ehow.com/way_5314993_foods-lo...actin.html

My multivitamins contain 5 mg and 10 mg, and my anti-androgen cocktail (SP SNR PSO Java tea) 9 mg. So I should take care to use the 5 mg multi when I'm on the anti-androgen cocktail.

Today I was at www.jacob-hooy.nl in Amsterdam again for goat's rue (galega officinalis). They had to back order it, I can pick it up next week Friday. Wahaika recommended GR batter to Polekat, PrettyPurpleKao, and MoK217, so I assume the batter is safe to use

I haven't decided on how to supplement for more collagen: gelatin powder or MSM. www.vanderpigge.nl have Active GlucoForte MSM powder from Mattisson 400 g for € 34.95. That is not a cheap supplement but I won't use it all in a 3 month ramp up.

[Isabelle]

Just couldn't figure out why oats (avena sativa) are in all the proven European programs (Eve M, Wonderup, breast-gro + FG). I mentioned in my June 17th post in this thread it's an androgen, and there's other threads too:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8546
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8605

So why take the risk of putting an androgen in an NBE program, even if it's a good source of B vitamins and zinc? Now I know: collagen! A post by Chrishoney reminded me of the importance of silicic acid for synthesis of collagen:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7660

Now oats is one of the very few dietary sources of silicic acid. Not as good as millet or the core of an apple, but still. The more I study Eve M's program, the more I'm convinced it has everything on board.

Not finished reading yet

[Isabelle]

I still don't know what the malt, buckwheat, wheat and maize are for in the formula I used to take. Maybe too feed fusarium?
http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Abs...ts.32.aspx

[Isabelle]

A full text copy of Adriane Fugh-Berman's 2003 publication is available on her website:
http://www.fugh-berman.com/files/Bust.pdf
I remember it had me worried back then, but I chose a hops & grains formula anyway. However, before I decide to either finish or toss my last half box, I checked later publications that cite hers. And look what I found:

Hops stimulates insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF1):

Scroll down to p. 73, top left graph:
http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=975467654&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=975467654.pdf

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/co...7.abstract

I remember GorgeousBlonde noticed that not many supplements boost GF:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7997
So I have one more good reason to keep hops in my program

[Isabelle]

This is the breakdown of my herbs and supplements, grouped by what they're supposed to do. If something does not work out as planned, I will use this post as a quick reference, to show me what to change to get it right. Herbs and supplements marked with "no" are not in my program.

If there is a good reason why I don't want a herb or supplement in my program, that reason is indicated between brackets. Most explanations between brackets, however, are just clarification.

Phyto-estrogens:
fenugreek seed (powdered and whole)
hops fowers (dried, not powdered)
fennel seed (dried and powdered, as tea)
licorice tea (estrogen, prolactin stimulant, anti-androgen, and progestin)
shatavari tea
no red clover (because it's also a progestin)
no wild yam (not a phyto-estrogen, but a 16α-hydroxyestrone blocker)
no pueraria mirifica (too strong, and I have no experience with it)

Zearalenone:
barley, oats, hops (can contain fusarium)
no malt (certainly contains fusarium)
no maize, wheat, buckwheat, rye (often contain fusarium)

Phyto-progestins:
licorice tea
fennel seed tea
no red clover
no PC (cream, only for women who have progesterone deficiency)
"progesterone stops NBE progress dead in its tracks" (Wahaika)

Anti-androgens:
spearmint tea (peppermint is more estrogenic)
saw palmetto berry
stinging nettle root
pumpkin seed oil
borage seed oil GLA (for hair loss)
Zinc, vitamin B6, and azelaic acid (in rye, barley, whole grain cereals)
Secoisolariciresinol diglucoside (SDG), the main lignan in flax (linseed)
β-Sitosterol (the fytosterol in my SP SNR PSO Java tea formula)
Java tea (orthosiphon extract)
no pygeum bark
no wild yam (β-sitosterol)

Androgens:
oats stimulate androgen activity! It is an anti-estrogen
maca root boosts testosterone

Prolactin:
fenugreek seed
hops flowers
goat's rue (galega officinalis)
black seed (nigella sativa)
no blessed thistle

Human Growth Hormone:
GABA, serotonin (= 5-HTP + Vitamin B6)
no glandular therapy (bovine ovary)
no pig placenta
no lamb placenta
no L-tyrosine
no bee pollen

Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF1):
made in the breast tissue
hops flowers
no deer velvet extract
no glandular therapy (bovine ovary)
no pig placenta
no lamb placenta

Vitamin B complex:
"super hair formula" multi (> 50 mcg B12)
hair-skin-nails multi (no B12! Use together with meat, fish, dairy)
brewer's yeast

Folic acid:
spinach (preferably frozen), asparagus, broccoli, avocado, lettuce
beremeal
"super hair formula" multi (> 200 mcg B9)

Vitamin C:
"super hair formula" multi 1000 mg
hair-skin-nails multi 160 mg
tablets 70 mg
no citrus (because it's an androgen)

Zinc 12-35 mg:
seafood (oysters!), meat, chicken, dairy, oats
hair-skin-nails multi 10 mg
"super hair formula" multi 5 mg
SP SNR PSO Java tea anti-androgen formula 9 mg
never skip a day: the body can't store zinc

Protein:
meat, chicken, fish, eggs
fortify shakes with milk protein powder
no soy: slows the thyroid (or take kelp and L-tyrosine with it)

Healthy fats:
borage oil (highest in GLA, prostaglandin precursor)
omega 3 (fish and flaxseed oil, cold pressed = without lignans)
omega 6 can cause acne
evening primrose oil contains less GLA than borage oil, and makes androgen excess worse

Butt:
maca root

Waist hip ratio:
goat's rue (galega officinalis)
black seed (nigella sativa)
no wild yam (hypoglycemic, hypolipidemic)

Grow hair nails lashes:
millet, apple core, oats (contain silicic acid)
hair-skin-nails formula (200 mg horsetail, equisetum arvense, contains silicic acid)
gelatin
no MSM
no collagen

[lled34aa]

wow! and i thought i was taking too much supplements. i admire your dedication.

i have a few thoughts.

why do you want to raise testosterone? i would think testosterone might hinder breasts development?

i'm still not sure about the role of progesterone in NBE. i know Wahaika is against it, but others have grown with it. also, when women are on BO, a lot of them reported growing in the later part of they cycle, when progesterone is in play and estrogen is lower. i am experimenting with progesterone cream, trying to time it with my completely wacked cycle. i'm still stuggling with the timing.

you listed licorice tea in both progestin and estrogen. do you know if it's a 50/50 deal or is one much stronger than the other? same with fennel seed?

on the growing hair/nails/lashes front, i'm curious as to why you're not doing MSM? i've been taking MSM powder, 1/2 teaspoon a day for the past 8 months or so and for sure i noticed my hair growing much faster and my eyelashes are longer and fully than before. i used to use revitalash. when i stoped using it, it went back to my original lashes. then with MSM, my lashes look like how they did when i was using revitalash.

anyways, love your program posts. so much information. none of us are are scientists or have a medical degree, but we can all learn from each other's researches and experiences.