[Isabelle]

Thank you doll,

Yes, fenugreek is great. I used to be out all night in winter showing a lot of skin

And yes, I've been looking into arginine keto-glutarate since jiberish mentioned it in May:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11855&pid=49884#pid49884

and into arginine aspartate:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=12321&pid=53515#pid53515

and into citrulline. The problem I have with L-arginine is that it's still too expensive for what it does. So the real art is to do what you did: get some good quality for cheap. Prices are going down, though. I think the flood of new arginine salts is just the industry's attempt to stop price erosion. The keto-glutarate is actually a combined arginine - glutamine supplement, and I'm sure you can find glutamine for less.

But please do keep us updated. I'd be most interested to read if you keep the growth. I lost most of it, and have to write it off as swelling. I'd also like to know if taking a big dose a few times a week works. I shied away from it because idreamofD got side effects before she decided to take 5 g at first, and then ramp up.

[karen]

Hi Isabelle,

Well I am just around the point of 30 days of a program that has focused primarily on Hops (Liquid Extract PLUS Dried Strobiles) Testim, Fenugreek, and Teas (Licorice and Spearmint)

In a nutshell 1st thing in the AM (on an empty stomach) I have the Liquid Hops Extract in water ... this is supposed to be an anti-androgen. At night I have either the Hops Strobiles or Liquid Extract mixed with Yogurt and Granola ... this is supposed to be more "digested" and add phyto-estrogens.

About a 1/2 hour after my morning Hops I apply the Testim. This is what supplies my Testosterone ... the thought is that the anti-angrogen hops are in my system, I have plenty of Free T (been verified with blood test), DHT is suppressed (not sure how much) and so I end up with higher levels of Estradiol from the Testim.

I take FG during the day ... I like the swelling plus I am able to keep what I think is "estrogen dominance" symptoms in check. I usually have a spearmint tea at work maybe mid-morning to keep suppressing DHT. Licorice Tea I have whenever the urge strikes.

The evening Hops always tends to make me sleepy (very much so the strobiles) and I'm loving all of the dreams.

So all that being what it is I’m kinda at a point of indecision. I do see changes in the size of my boobs … measurements vary by 2” or so (remember I am Big to begin with) but they never seem to stay. I do feel things that I believe are due to hormonal changes/differences. (headaches, tingly feelings, aches and pains, my nipples get real big and hard when they are cold, other times they are so soft and smooth) I for sure feel differences in moods, energy, libido, sleepy, wired (physical and mental) but here’s the thing …. Nothing seems to continually progress forward. I can’t seem to get myself in a “place” where I feel right most of the time and I can’t seem to “progress forward consistently” with my breast size …. Even when I stick to the same pattern for a week … every day is different. Is this the “nature of the beast” and have I just not given it enough time?

I'd love to find a place where I have a reasonable amount of energy, and generally feeling happy ... I'm not really looking for "permanent" big boobs ... I've always had decent size pecs ... I'd like them to be more "shaped like a womans breast" but yet "maybe" still pass for pecs (I guess I want the difference to be most noticable
by me)

I'm wondering if I am one of those that "do digest hops into 8-pn" ... or maybe I'm not ... maybe that is what's holding me back from getting to a consistent place ... I guess I just don't know. Maybe Testim is working against me and my idea of "using it to help" is not viable.

I'm fairly certain that we don't have a stalling issue. I know from blood tests that my LH is pretty much rock bottom and my Testosterone is in a tube not made in my body.

I'm not looking for a solution ... just maybe a little insight.

Thanks ... karen

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I was looking over notes and thinking about things. One thing that may help consistency is to always take my morning liquid hops in water AND apply my Testim at the same time. I usually take the hops 1st ... and apply Testim afterwards ... and how much afterwards may vary. If I wait too long I could be crashing DHT Levels before the Testim is absorbed to help prevent the crash (more Free T, even though it is partially surpessed it may not drop as low)

Doesn't really the NBE part but could help even out how I feel in the early part of the day.

karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

Give it four months without a change. That's what I did

No seriously, you do get ED symptoms and sensations. Not many of us have more to go on. Use the swelling to keep the motivation. Do keep away from ED: it doesn't help growth. You want high estrogen, or if you can't avoid it even estrogen excess, but no estrogen dominance.

Another good approach is to forget about the program: if it's simple enough, it can become a routine.

One thing about this time of the year: it doubles all the uneasy feelings and worries. Yesterday, I increased hops from 6 to 7 tablespoons because of cross dressing and shemale porn, and last night, I already thought I should stop hops, which is a clear sign of taking too much. Right now, the optimum is between 6 and 7 tablespoons, and in winter, it was between 2 and 3. So don't expect an easy ride until after the long hot summer.

[karen]

Thanks Isabelle,

I'll try to be patient

I'd like to start my day with Liquid Hops in Water (anti-androgen) at the same time that I apply my Testim ... this will be the start to the day .... and it will alow me to make timing between the two the same every day ... my goal here is to block 5 alpha reductase from converting Free T into DHT. Any suggestions to how much Liquid Hops Extract (I'll adjust for weight) PLUS are there any anti-androgens that you would add at that time ... my preference is capsules ... I'm blessed with the fact that cost is not an issue ... if possible I'd like to do nothing EXCEPT block 5 alpha reductase .... remember that I can adjust the amount of Total T / Free T just by applying more Testim ... AND stalling is not an issue .... I'll take care of excess estrogen later in the day ... if possible I'd like to control one thing at a time ... meaning when I take something it only affects one thing ... Yes I know ... while you're at it search for the holey grail

Thanks oh "Great Wise One" ...... karen

[Isabelle]

Good morning Karen,

I really have to make time to get on-line these days: the maintenance project on my house is getting bigger and bigger.

I don't know about capsules. Most good anti-androgens are in food:
spearmint tea
vitamin B6 in meat
zinc in seafood
azelaic acid in rye, barley grass, whole grain cereals
SDG in flax seed

Most herbs that contain anti-androgens do a lot of other things too: xanthohumol in hops, β-sitosterol in wild yam and PM, SP grows bigger thighs, borage seed oil contains ω−6 fatty acids.

I'd stick to spearmint tea. You may want to try borage seed oil capsules as a topical or internally, or a cream that contains azelaic acid. That's a really expensive cosmetic ingredient, though.

[Doll]

Thank you doll,

Yes, fenugreek is great. I used to be out all night in winter showing a lot of skin

And yes, I've been looking into arginine keto-glutarate since jiberish mentioned it in May:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11855&pid=49884#pid49884

and into arginine aspartate:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=12321&pid=53515#pid53515

and into citrulline. The problem I have with L-arginine is that it's still too expensive for what it does. So the real art is to do what you did: get some good quality for cheap. Prices are going down, though. I think the flood of new arginine salts is just the industry's attempt to stop price erosion. The keto-glutarate is actually a combined arginine - glutamine supplement, and I'm sure you can find glutamine for less.

But please do keep us updated. I'd be most interested to read if you keep the growth. I lost most of it, and have to write it off as swelling. I'd also like to know if taking a big dose a few times a week works. I shied away from it because idreamofD got side effects before she decided to take 5 g at first, and then ramp up.

There's so many different supplements and mixtures out there. I've just barely started looking into it. ^^; I only came across that one when looking at reviews for L-Arginine on VitaShoppe's website, and someone mentioned that. I'll look into the ones you mentioned and see which I might like to try. It sucks that it's so expensive and doesn't help growth like everyone says it will. :/ But since I'm also trying to build muscle, too, I might as well try it.

It also helps you get pumped up for a workout, so even if you don't plan to build muscle, if it works at only 2-3 doses a week, it might be good to take it right before going for a walk or jog or something. If it works, I'm gonna let everyone know!

[karen]

Morning Isabelle,

So what all are you doing on your House? I know I have a long list too. Funny how the to-do list gets longer and longer, and to make matters worse, the older I get the less that comes off the list

Two nights ago I tried 5,500 mg of Dried Hops, chopped up a little in a small food processor and mixed with Oatmeal. I can't do it anymore. At 5,500 mg that's ALLOT of Dried Hops to add to anything. It is over powering and, for me, down right nasty.
I'm decided to stick with my Liquid Hops Extract. The effects didn't real feel any different whether I was taking dried hops or liquid hops extract.

Yesterday was "Lab Rat" day ... here's the journal

• 8:30 AM … 8,000 mg of liquid Hops Extract in water (intent, anti-androgen)
• 8:30 AM … 1 ½ tubes of Testim
• 10:00 AM … feeling tingly on my boobs and chest … getting a slight headache … vision is like I usually notice when I am feeling extra estrogen (like looking into a tunnel, foggy)
• 10:05 AM … had breakfast … scrambled eggs and 1 slice of buttered bread
• 11:30 AM … 2 Bag Mug of Spearmint Tea
• 1:30 PM … getting lower back pain … estrogen dominance?
• 1:35 PM … 8 FG Capsules
• 4:30 PM … 8,000 mg of liquid Hops Extract in Tuna Fish Salad
• 7:00 PM … 8,000 mg of liquid Hops Extract in Yogurt

As you can see I had a significant amount of Hops yesterday and 4,480 mg of FG. Well I think I've come to a realization that I'm NOT one of the people that digests Hops into 8-pn. With that amount of Hops, if I digested it into 8-pn I had thought that I would have felt a "hormonal difference" ... but I didn't. What seems to make a difference in my program is how much Testim I use ... not how much "digestable Hops" I add to the program. I'm reasonably certain that Hops is a DHT Blocker for me ... nothing more. With the amount of Hops that I have tried I'd suspect that Type 1 5a-reductase is just about totally blocked. As I add more Testim I feel more Hormonal Effects, when I take less I feel less.

With 1 1/2 tubes of Testim along with my morning dose of Hops with water I experience "signs" starting around an hour and a half later ... with only one tube I experience fewer signs ... and if I load up on "digestable Hops later (liquid or dried) I really don't feel much more.

So I think what I have so far is a way of blocking DHT with Hops along with my Testim to create Estradiol ... FG to play with swelling ... Spearmint Tea to help "ensure" DHT is being blocked ... but not much as far as pthyo-estrogens.

karen

[Isabelle]

Good morning karen,

I have a new balcony, the back wall repointed, and they're starting new batons and tiles on half of the roof, and checking the sewers. I'm doing the inside plumbing work and the garden myself. The list is getting shorter for the first time since my divorce, now almost five years ago.

So you have a simple, one-supplement-one-effect program. I love that. It's great for experimenting

[karen]

I have a new balcony, the back wall repointed, and they're starting new batons and tiles on half of the roof, and checking the sewers. I'm doing the inside plumbing work and the garden myself. The list is getting shorter for the first time since my divorce, now almost five years ago.

Sounds Like you're getting things in "order" .... that's a good thing after your divorce

So you have a simple, one-supplement-one-effect program. I love that. It's great for experimenting

I guess Good and Bad ... now I'm kinda stuck figuring out how to add phyto-estrogens ... I was hoping that I could use hops as a DHT suppressor AND to add phyto-estrogen beyond what my body created .... Oh Well ... Chris Columbo was hoping it was the Far East Too

karen

[Isabelle]

Well, karen,

since your own estrogen production won't stall, you would be the one to try high soy doses to see if it smooths your skin. Or other phyto-estrogens that are supposed to be selective for a specific estrogen effect.