[Isabelle]

Eve M wrote soy was in her program for the isoflavones, not for the protein:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=5599&pid=35702#pid35702

That makes her program the only one to recommend mixing a strong phyto-estrogen, hops, with a weaker one, soy. There is a lot of caution against doing that on this forum, and the reasoning is this: you only have so many receptors, why fill them with weak estrogens, if you can have stronger ones there instead?

I don't really buy that. A receptor is a protein that receives the estrogen signal at the cellular level. If there's a phyto-estrogen on it, the signal is received, and the protein will do what needs to be done. A "stronger" or "more potent" phyto-estrogen just means the chemical bond it builds with the receptor is stronger. In my understanding of dynamic chemical equilibrium, that just means that at equal concentrations of strong and weak estrogens, most of the receptors will be occupied by the stronger estrogen. So in practice, there is no objection at the receptor level against mixing strong and weak phyto-estrogens.

There is an objection at the level of digestion of phyto-estrogens to the bioactive estrogens. In post #49 of this thread, I linked this publication:
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/12/2293.short
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/12/2293.full
The phyto-estrogens from hops, flax, and soy, are digested to the bioactive 17β-estradiol. When the phyto-estrogens are taken together, less 17β-estradiol becomes available.

The same research group later found that soy is not really a weak phyto-estrogen:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/91/4/976.abstract
http://www.ajcn.org/content/91/4/976.full
At the receptor level, there is 21 and 10 times more 17β-estradiol than in adipose and glandular breast tissue. The authors conclude that this level is high enough to cause health effects. So far, conventional wisdom expected no effect at all unless people eat soy products all day.

[Isabelle]

Melissa4u mentioned that problems with the quantity of milk production have a name: Insufficient glandular tissue (IGT). I linked a book that describes an herbal treatment for her here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9759&pid=35764#pid35764

That book links IGT to PCOS. Come to think of it: years of estrogen dominance build nice long milk ducts, but no glandular tissue. But we already found a link between PCOS and insulin resistance:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9899&pid=35760#pid35760

I linked a book before that explains the relation between insulin resistance, sugar cravings, and high cortisol very well:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=31217#pid31217
But that book lists fenugreek and oats for treatment. The book I linked for Melissa lists alfalfa, goat's rue, and raspberry leaf tea, among others. OK, fenugreek and goat's rue both build insulin sensitivity. But I already warned earlier against raspberry during pregnancy: it starts the contractions of the uterus.
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8791&pid=34551#pid34551

And what if a woman who has PCOS starts oats? It's and androgen! And one of the symptoms of PCOS is androgen excess. There are several women around here who reported the whole set of symptoms around both PCOS and insulin resistance. I'm thinking of Gogirlanime and lled34aa, and maybe Melissa4u. It looks like fenugreek or goat's rue may be the only herbs that will help them.

[Isabelle]

Height: 178.5 cm = 5' 10"
Weight: 80.5 kg = 177 lbs
Body Mass Index (BMI): 80.5/1.785/1.785 = 25.3
Breast: 103 cm = 41"
Under: 95 cm = 37"
Waist: 91 cm = 36"
Hip: 99 = 39"
Waist to hip ratio (WHR): 91/99 = 0.92

Progress:
Day 11/7 26/7 08/8 22/8 05/09 2014 2016
BMI: 26.5 26.4 26.2 25.7 25.3 23.0 23.0
B-U: 8.00 5.00 8.00 8.00 8.00 15.0 20.0
WHR 0.95 .945 0.94 0.92 0.92 0.80 0.70

In two weeks, I've lost another 4 lbs. That's 2 lbs to go, for a healthy Body Mass Index (BMI) of 25.

The difference between bust and underbust is stuck at 8 cm (3 "). But this was in the morning, before anything else, and some of my previous measurements were after maca and FG, so they include swelling.

Waist to Hip Ratio (WHR) is stuck at 0.92. Maybe I should start goat's rue tea, or increase FG again. Increasing maca could help too, because my hip circumference at the widest point has gone down from 100 to 99 cm.

[Isabelle]

I fasted for most of today. I only had three half glasses of water with the multivitamin, the maca, and the fenugreek.

My weight has gone down to 80.0 kg (BMI 25.1), from 80.5 kg this morning. My bust has gone up to 104 cm, from 103 cm this morning, so there is some swelling. The other measurements are the same as this morning's.

[Isabelle]

I looked up some more literature for lilmissprettytits to show that FG is not a phyto-estrogen:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9918&pid=35919#pid35919

Real phyto-estrogens are rare. There´s hops, flax, soy, PM, yellow dock and sheep sorrel. Red clover and licorice are phyto-estrogens, but also phyto-progestins. Soy slows the thyroid and flax inhibits aromatase a little. And hops makes you sleepy and even depressed, and PM messes up women´s cycles. Men are really happy on PM. Too happy.

So yellow dock and sheep sorrel are worth looking into.
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=32666#pid32666
I grew up between sheep sorrel, but today I saw my first yellow dock on my walk in the dunes. It tastes a little like oxalic acid, but not as strongly as sheep sorrel.

The one plant I saw will last just one day if I start using it. Fortunately, it does exist as a supplement. GNC carry a tincture:
http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=10934623&kwCatId=

[Isabelle]

Last night, Raya and lilmissprettytits got me thinking again
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9918&pid=35939#pid35939
about this publication I linked above in post #301 of this thread.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/12/2293.short
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/12/2293.full

That publication supports Ginie's ideas about the AAA ladies, tubular breasts and PCOS more than Wahaika's. They should be concentrating on progesterone. Raya got it too:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8923&pid=35944#pid35944
Ladies with PCOS should not overdo progesterone either, because it can become cortisol, which deposits visceral fat. Wahaika writes that FG releases insulin, which deposits visceral fat too. So lled34aa's choice for GR instead of FG may be working wonders for her. I should start GR tea too.

Yesterday, I slacked on my diet. Three large bowls of sweet cereals, no protein other than 200 g cheese, and no dark green leafy vegetables. The results are dramatic:
weight 81 kg, up 1 kg
bust 105 cm
under 98 cm: bust - under = only 7 cm
waist 94 cm
hip (actually butt: always measure the widest part) 99 cm: WHR = 0.95

I never knew one day of slacking has so much effect. But now I do know

[melissa4u]

Melissa4u mentioned that problems with the quantity of milk production have a name: Insufficient glandular tissue (IGT). I linked a book that describes an herbal treatment for her here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9759&pid=35764#pid35764

Hi Isabelle!
I think that you are right about the progesterone and goat's rue. I have read lots of things about IGT, and they all say its a lack of progesterone. Goat's Rue is one of the most potent herbs out there to increase breast milk and increase mammary tissue. I actually don't know if I have PCOS, I have never been diagnosed with it, and I have looked at the symptoms, I don't fit 100% in that category, but I am not sure
I bought "The Breastfeeding Mother's Guide To Making More Milk", it is such a GREAT book, it discusses everything about making more milk, it covers everything, herbs, pumping, low milk supply,breastfeeding issues, PCOS, IGT. They talked about IGT in a few chapters. They brung several women who have IGT or other breastfeeding issues using different herbs to increase mammary tissue and milk with success. I highly recommend the book. They recommend tons of herbs, but the main one that they said will be most helpful was the goat's rue. I will try to post more info from the book.
I am just so happy to read that there is something that can be done to help IGT.
I am not sure if these herbs can be taken before pregnancy to prepare onself, because I don't think it was written in the book. So I contacted the co-author of "The Breastfeeding Mother's Guide to Making More Milk" about taking herbs before pregnancy to prepare oneself. I love that I got a reply back, she is amazing. This was her response:
I don't recommend taking goat's rue or any other herb during pregnancy, but you may benefit from taking progesterone supplementation until week 37, which has been shown to increase lactation tissue. You may also benefit from using metformin both during pregnancy and lactation. I and my coauthor Lisa Marasco have written about these strategies in the Making More Milk book

I am on BO, and will actually switch to BB soon, and BO is progesterone based so that should help me. We'll see, I am actually very happy I will be using BB instead of the generic BO, I was just too tired swallowing all those pills in a day, it will be nice just to pop only 2 pills a day and ofcourse BB is the most potent BO out there (from what I have read).


I think starting Goat's Rue again is a great idea for you. What was the reason you stopped in the first place?
And Honey, we have all been there with slacking with our diet, LOL!
I love sweets!!!!!!!!
So don't be too hard on yourself. I think we all need a "cheat" day. ha ha

[Isabelle]

Thank you Melissa

I'm so happy you found a book you can use. In pregnancy, a good book with tested and proven approaches sure beats trying to follow the latest insights on the forum. But well, progesterone looks interesting for a lot of things, and it's not like the latest fad or so: Ginie has been advocating it for quite a while.

I bought goat's rue, but never used it. I didn't trust its reputation for toxicity. It was such a relief for me when you found the tea is safe. My WHR seems to be stuck at 0.92, I hope it goes down again on GR.

[Isabelle]

My libido is a bit on the high side today. Tried on two little numbers, liked what I saw, and then, well, the tranny in me took over

So I just made a big pot (8 cups) of GR tea out of what looks like 1,000 mg of dried herb. If I get too much, one of the symptoms of too much prolactin is low libido. Another is gynecomastia, but who cares?

Now the question is, what am I going to wear to check if my libido is going down after a few cups? Just try on a few more, I guess

[Isabelle]

Well, libido was gone after two cups of Goat's Rue tea, say 250 mg of dried GR. I wouldn't say my prolactin is too high now, it's not like I'm cleaning house all the time. But I am already taking 3,000 mg a day of FG. So if I want to increase GR, I will need to decrease FG.

Which brings up the question what exactly GR does. FG ups prolactin, releases insulin, increases insulin sensitivity, and because of the diosgenin in FG, it increases estrogen some, and progesterone too. Does GR contain diosgenin? Does it increase insulin? I know it ups prolactin and it increases insulin sensitivity like FG, but other than that, I would also like to know what it does differently. Back to reading...