[Pansy-Mae]

My goal with GR was to reduce FG, and yesterday I decreased it from 3,000 mg to 2,000 mg, because of the dry skin. So that worked.

Isabelle,
Just a little passing observation to throw into your general pot of knowledge - I have found that on higher doses of PM ( 3000mg a day) my fingers go very dry and wrinkled, looking similar to the way that soaking in water makes fingers wrinkle.
All my life I have had very sweaty hands and the PM has definately stopped that. I suspect that the dry wrinkling is actually that, without moisture to plump them out, I now have 'too much' flesh on my fingers!

[lled34aa]

i didn't realized i've been on PM for 4 months now. last month, i experienced a lot of soreness throughout most of the month. this month, i barely had soreness. if i did, it was only when i first wake up in the morning. i feel like i am stalling. even when i noogle, i'm not getting as much swelling as i did last month.

the only differences in my routine are:

- i took less GR to see if it would make any difference

- i am supplementing with decently high dosage of magnesium citrate

- i've been taking 2-4 tea bags of spearmint tea a day.

- whereas last month, i was mostly on st herb pills, this month i alternate between st herb and siriporn PM.


do you have any insight as to why i seem to be stalling? i ordered more GR and intend to up my intake. but if GR only gives me temporary swelling, i don't know if it's worth the money. i'm hoping that GR stimulates the breast glands to be more responsive to the estrogen from PM. but i don't really know if that's the case.

[Isabelle]

Thank you Pansy Mae,

This is the sort of symptoms I need to steer my program: not very big and noticeable, but visible within a day, and easy to describe accurately. I have checked my hands for a day now, and they remain the same. Yet there is a big difference with five years ago: more even skin, maybe even a bit bloated, and less visible veins and bones.

My skin has become less chafy since I decreased the FG, but the back of my hands is still wrinkly. Yesterday, the tips of my middle and index fingers had grooves in them like if I had been in the swimming pool for too long. Now, before taking anything, the grooves are nearly gone. I'll check during the day as I take my herbs, to see when it changes.

I feel like a schoolboy who hasn't been paying attention: Susan and I have been advocating daily adjustments on the basis of symptoms, and then I look at my hands all day without seeing them. Hands show immediate effects of hormones, and that's what we need to steer our programs.

[Isabelle]

Thank you for the update, lled,

I can't say why you stalled, but there are easy ways to check. I would suspect the going off St. Herb. Try a few days on St. Herb only, then 50/50 St. Herb/siriporn again, and then siriporn only. Journal what you feel in your breasts.

You may simply be taking too much PM. Siriporn is twice ast strong as St. Herb, and I linked a publication before that reported a peak in estrogens after 5 months on PM. So you may have crossed the stalling limit on a constant dose.

About goat's rue, I'm not sure myself. I'll post about my tape measurements next. Goat's rue did the opposite of what I expected. I did measure 3/4" growth for the first time in two months, but that may be swelling caused by the prolactin increase from goat's rue. It may also have been a resensitizing of estrogen receptors by progesterone, because I saw symptoms of too high progesterone last week. But how can I see the difference?

[Isabelle]

Height: 178.5 cm = 5' 10"
Weight: 83.0 kg = 183 lbs
Body Mass Index (BMI): 83.0/1.785/1.785 = 26.0
Breast: 107 cm = 42"
Under: 97 cm = 38"
Waist: 95 cm = 37"
Hip: 99 = 39"
Waist to hip ratio (WHR): 95/99 = 0.96

Progress:
Day 11/7 26/7 08/8 22/8 05/9 19/9 2014 2016
BMI: 26.5 26.4 26.2 25.7 25.3 26.0 23.0 23.0
B-U: 8.00 5.00 8.00 8.00 8.00 10.0 15.0 20.0
WHR 0.95 .945 0.94 0.92 0.92 0.96 0.80 0.70
B-U = Breast - Under in cm

In the two weeks since my latest measurement, I slacked on my diet: especially apples and potatoes. And last week, I introduced goat's rue, to improve my Waist Hip Ratio (WHR). WHR is worse than ever, maybe just from the carbs in the apples and potatoes. And I have also lost half of what I won in Body Mass Index (BMI), because of the diet. And the waist circumference may include some gas, I'll measure again a few times later today.

But finally: Growth! Or at least swelling from the Goat's Rue (GR, galega officinalis). The difference between Bust and Underbust (B-U) has gone up from 8 to 10 cm (3/4") at the BMI I had mid August, so the growth (or swelling) includes no effect of weight gain.

As always with measured data, this is very different from what I expected. The weight gain started more than a week ago, so at least I can say the weight gain is not a consequence of the GR. But WHR is now higher than it was at the same BMI mid August. I will check my waist circumference a few times today, but if it stays where it is now, this may mean I should forget about the GR and increase fenugreek again. But before I try that, I should obviously get my diet in check, and measure again after two weeks, maybe not at 80 kg, but at least without the carbs in my diet.

I may have to postpone the panax ginseng for two weeks. Because of the weight gain and the carbs in my diet, I changed three things at the same time: weight and diet and GR. So I need to stop at least one of them before I can learn from the measurements.

Well, science is for people who get motivated by discouragement

[Pansy-Mae]

.... Yesterday, the tips of my middle and index fingers had grooves in them like if I had been in the swimming pool for too long....

That is exactly what I was trying to describe!
As I sit here typing, some of my fingers look like that right now..HOWEVER.. I have taken nothing since Saturday morning ( I have an unrelated blood test tomorrow morning and I don't want to risk compromising the results of that).
So, either the dryness is unrelated, which I don't believe, or else either the levels are higher and/or persistence in my body is a lot longer than I had thought.

On the subject of your stats, I have been thinking for sometime that you are reading too much, too soon, into small day to day changes. Just taking something as simple as weight, that can easily change by a Kg or so from day to day, and even from morning to evening on the same day, so to get hung up about the odd centimetre or two at any specific point just puts your anxiety levels up!
FWIW, I'm just about to add all my measurements for the past 12 months ( since I started on NBE) to my pictures thread. Two things are noticeable... my weight HAS gone up, my boobs HAVE grown but the actual measurements indicate a lot less growth than the eye apparently sees!
Oh, and BTW, my WHR is exactly the same as yours, even though your build is slightly heavier than mine but height about the same.

[Isabelle]

Hi Pansy Mae,

The grooves in my fingertips are back. All I had was 2,000 mg FG, 3 hours ago, and 1,000 mg GR as tea, just 10 minutes ago. I expect a relation with hormones levels too, but it will take some time to figure it out. When I stopped hops and fenugreek in June, it took three weeks before the androgen and progesterone peaks had gone.

You are right about the stats: 12 months is a good set of data to draw conclusions from. I measure every two weeks to build a set like that. In the mean time, I should not draw any hard conclusions. But 6 lbs up in two weeks is too much.

I will correct my diet now, keep the goat's rue, and postpone the panax ginseng. I'm really curious about it, but if I want to really learn anything, I need to limit changes in my program to once every three months, instead of every two weeks

[beachbumbythesea]

Goodmorning Isabelle,

This is going to be a quick message cause I am tired..lol you mentioned a few weeks back about my period..well I got it late at night on the 17th which was 5 days later then last month..had wicked cramps and today I feel tired from the pain.. I am suppose to start a new workout to gain muscle mass and build my core strength..I was suppose to start the program yesterday..lol hence I didnt do to wicked pain.. anyway.. I havent been following the chart exactly..this time around I am going to just use PM and SP..I will keep using my new tita cream..love it.. when I am up to more typing and thinking I will give an update on my program..oh as for the ginseng with that other memeber taking it every other day.. before you looked into it I read more about it and read about what you wrote about the toxicity sp? and maybe that is why that person took it every other day..

[Isabelle]

Thank you Susan,

I'll read more about panax ginseng toxicity before I start using it.

OK that's from August 12th
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34418#pid34418
to September 17th. A 36 day cycle again. If they stay that long, try taking only 1 M on day 12, or none at all.

Hope you feel better soon

[beachbumbythesea]

Thank you Susan,

I'll read more about panax ginseng toxicity before I start using it.

OK that's from August 12th
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34418#pid34418
to September 17th. A 36 day cycle again. If they stay that long, try taking only 1 M on day 12, or none at all.

Hope you feel better soon

Really 1 or none...I was going to follow the chart without the other herbs..I think the other herbs messed up some.. I havent went one month on PM alone ..each month I was using something with it..the first month I went from FG to PM, 2nd I started maca, and the 3rd I was taking FG,maca,some Fennel and the BS pills..some were together, BS pills alone except they were all taken along with PM..so this cycle I will follow the chart as close as possible unless my symptoms are wacky..lol..as for SP I may take that as needed or every other day not sure what to do with it..I also been slacking in my supps..but the girls doing ok..maybe its the cream working nice.. I also what to see what makes my chin hairs and acne come..so far it is good..PM really works great in that area along with SP..the other reason I want to take SP ..after reading all the other herbs FG,GR,Fennel, and others like that (tita ones) those others except I think GR always says it helps to product milk.. SP is mentioned to help growth..correct me if wrong.. so I thought why take those others..I am thinking of GR down the line though..I want to also add more foods like soy too..so bottom line is I am going to readd supps and herbs slowly to see if I get any changes..I have noticed my titas feel fuller and bigger but not sure if it is the cream, the soy milk, or just eating more carbs..I think it is the carbs..I also feel better adding the carbs..ok getting tired..lol