[Grayson123]

I know DIM as an “estrogen reducer” that’s somehow related to tamoxifen, which is a famous boob size nemesis used by bodybuilders to flatten out.  

There’s also been studies saying that it reduces the breast gland. I need to do my research first. I’ll stick to Spironolactone.

[Lotus]

You can believe what you want Grayson, but your takeaway is DIM is a just an estrogen reducer that’s somehow related to tamoxifen...I don't where got that from that's incorrect. Yes, Tamoxifen and DIM are used in cancer research. 

Judging by your comment you didn't look at the posted literature, too bad…I'll list for you again. 

DlM improves estrogen metabolism,

DIM shifts production of the dangerous estrogen metabolite 16a-hydroxy in favor of the beneficial (or healthier) 2-hydroxy 2-OH metabolite. So it's hypothesized that the 2 OH pathway over 16α-OH pathway (which is inversely associated with breast cancer risk) is a safer option.

So tell me, can Spiro do all this?

Does Spiro significantly improve  insulin resistance like DIM

DIM on human prostate cancer cell growth were examined using LNCaP and PC-3 cells.

Our results showed a concentration-dependent inhibition of DNA synthesis of these cells of up to 90% under both uninduced and androgen-induced growth conditions.

Spiro doesn't even come close to that (60-70% at best)

DIM suppresses cell proliferation of LNCaP cells and inhibits dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulation of DNA synthesis.

DIM inhibited androgen-induced androgen receptor (AR) translocation into the nucleus. Results of receptor binding assays indicated further that DIM is a strong competitive inhibitor of DHT binding to the AR.

In addition, DIM inhibited proliferation and induced programmed cell death in human breast tumor cells in culture (20, 21).

We found that DIM is a strong antiandrogen that inhibited androgen-dependent tumor cell growth and competitively inhibited androgen receptor translocation and signal transduction.

DIM disrupts AR function in a manner similar to a chemically dissimilar synthetic antiandrogen, Casodex (similar to Bicalutamide)


   

 Excess Estrogen (albeit the bad estrogen 16 a-OH and 4-OH) has the potential to get re-absorbed if not properly eliminated through waste and cause cancerous effects, DIM shifts the 2OH-hydroxyestrone over the harmful 
16alpha-hydroxylation

Estrogen metabolism and risk of breast cancer: a prospective study of the 2:16alpha-hydroxyestrone ratio in premenopausal and postmenopausal women
P Muti et al. Epidemiology. 2000 Nov.
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Abstract
Experimental and clinical evidence suggests that 16alpha-hydroxylated estrogen metabolites, biologically strong estrogens, are associated with breast cancer risk, while 2-hydroxylated metabolites, with lower estrogenic activity, are weakly related to this disease. This study analyzes the association of breast cancer risk with estrogen metabolism, expressed as the ratio of 2-hydroxyestrone to 16alpha-hydroxyestrone, in a prospective nested case-control study. Between 1987 and 1992, 10,786 women (ages 35-69 years) were recruited to a prospective study on breast cancer in Italy, the "Hormones and Diet in the Etiology of Breast Cancer" (ORDET) study. Women with a history of cancer and women on hormone therapy were excluded at baseline. At recruitment, overnight urine was collected from all participants and stored at -80 degrees C. After an average of 5.5 years of follow-up, 144 breast cancer cases and four matched controls for each case were identified among the participants of the cohort. Among premenopausal women, a higher ratio of 2-hydroxyestrone to 16alpha-hydroxyestrone at baseline was associated with a reduced risk of breast cancer: women in the highest quintile of the ratio had an adjusted odds ratio (OR) for breast cancer of 0.58 [95% confidence interval (CI) = 0.25-1.34]. The corresponding adjusted OR in postmenopausal women was 1.29 (95% CI = 0.53-3.10). Results of this prospective study support the hypothesis that the estrogen metabolism pathway favoring 2-hydroxylation over 16alpha-hydroxylation is associated with a reduced risk of invasive breast cancer risk in premenopausal women


From the studies:

Obesity decreases 2-hydroxyestrone and increases 16-hydroxyestrone production.139,155

Exercise, weight loss, cruciferous vegetables,  improve the  2-hydroxyestrone/16-hydroxyestrone ratio, reducing the stimulatory effect on breast tissue.

Dietary consumption of cruciferous vegetables, such as broccoli and cabbage, as well as green tea, garlic, and rosemary can increase the amount of 2-HE by modifying P450 activity in phase I, and have antioxidant effects as well. Which means DIM does produce "catechol estrogens 2-HE by modifying P450 activity" ....that's aromatase. 

Altered estrogen metabolism and excretion in humans following consumption of indole‐3‐carbinol

"These results indicate that I3C predictably alters endogenous estrogen metabolism toward increased catechol estrogen production and may thereby provide a novel “dietary”; means for reducing cancer risk"

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1...9109514141

Catechol estrogens 2-HE by modifying P450 activity

[SweetO]

Oh boy! Dim!!!   it helps too with hormonal acne! Do you know any good brand, L?

Hi Sweets, 

This DIM supplement is close to meeting my requirements (e.g.no rice flour, no maltodextrin and no silicone dioxide). Both 
rice flour and maltodextrin spike insulin (which triggers Testosterone release and hunger, not good for breast growing needs). I also happen to be allergic to Silica, so it may be okay for you and others, just not for me. 

The only other issue I have is the dosage at 400mg, which is too high to start at imho…200mg (or even 100mg) is where I'd like it to be just to start off with and adjust accordingly. So, if you have capsules on hand (or plan on buying some) you could split the dosage(s). 

There's also no fillers in this DIM brand, which meets my requirements.

FYI, just throwing throwing this out there...I have no financial interest in this supplement, or any other nbe related supplement or financial interests in making money off the good people of both forums..unlike a few other here out to make a few bucks. 

https://www.amazon.com/NutriFlair-Supple...matic_sspa?

Thank you very much!

Would a cis-female use DIM only in follicular phase?

[Lotus]

Thank you very much!

Would a cis-female use DIM only in follicular phase?

Good question Sweets. In my opinion it depend on a few factors, meaning if we're talking about cis-females with PCOS then I'd suggest taking DIM all month long possibly. I'll be posting more alternatives to fight PCOS asap.
Otherwise in a cis-female's normal cycle DIM in follicular phase looks okay.

[SweetO]

Aw, it may be a stupid question but Dim cannot be supplied through food?

[Grayson123]

Cabbages have DIM (Indole-3-Carbinol). Since I eat cabbage everyday in winter due to the cost effectiveness, and BE works for me despite the cabbagey diet, it must not reduce estrogen or glandular growth that much.

[SweetO]

Hello, Lotus

I was wondering if Fenugreek would be best to consume in powder form or liquid form?? I know extracts are very potent, but you made clear the max dose we need cis females is 600mg...

[Lotus]

Hi Sweets,

Anything that passes through the liver is subjected to the first pass metabolism versus more potent extracts. I added a couple threads I made in the past for reference, maybe it'll help someone. 

FAQ-Absorption/When to take supplements
https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=21689

FAQ-Liquid Herbal Extracts (alcohol content)
https://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=21260

I'd stick with the 600mg as used in the original research paper. Especially seeing how PCOS and Subclinical Hypothyroidism are at increased risk of hyperglycemia (citation below) We know that when used in high amounts Fenugreek lowers blood sugars (known as hyperglycemia). 

More than half of subjects with PCOS are associated with IR, hyperglycemia, weight gain, and finally metabolic syndrome (MBS) 

A similar picture is also shared by hypothyroidism due to associated hyperglycemia, raised levels of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), and dyslipidemia [2, 4, 5]

Subclinical Hypothyroidism in PCOS: Impact on Presentation, Insulin Resistance, and Cardiovascular Risk
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2016/2067087/

[SweetO]

Thanks, L! <3 

Could we split the dose as well? I mean 300mg twice per week.

[Lotus]

Thanks, L! <3 

Could we split the dose as well? I mean 300mg twice per week.

Hi Sweets, yes...that's a reasonable request with no foreseeable conflicts. Good Luck