[karen]

Hi Isabelle,

I tell ya this stuff is complex and often contradictory ....

Of course I am continually reading ... and I've been looking into Saw Palmetto allot lately and I've been finding a significant amount of info ... from "non advertising sources" ... that says that not only is it supposed to be an anti-androgen BUT that it can either "lower estrogen levels" OR "block estrogen receptors" OR "lower the effects of high estrogen" .... vague but enough to make me wonder.

What's you thoughts on this one?

I'm thinking about a "plan Tweak" .... whereas I use an "empty stomach/without food dose of Liquid Hops" in the AM to act solely as an anti-androgen .... drink some spearmint tea during the day ... again anti-androgen only .... and drop the SP ... in the evening I will still have may Hops Strobiles with food .... either I get 8-pn out of it OR I get a second dose of anti-androgens .... this combined with my Testim will hopefully turn Free-T into lots of Estradiol ... and very little DHT ... the signs should be pretty evident after the course of a week.

What do you think?

PS ... I'm also trying to figure out what to do with FG? Is there any significant amounts of Phyto-progestins in FG? ... again there is always mixed feelings about Phyto-progestins and NBE.

Karen ...

[Isabelle]

Good morning Karen,

SP is an anti-estrogen, yes.

Focusing on anti-androgens will work for you, but not for someone who doesn't use testosterone replacement therapy.

According to the USDA, the amount of isoflavones in fenugreek is negligible, and I don't know of any other classes of phyto-estrogens that could be in fenugreek. But it's not a phyto-progestin either. It just increases prolactin, and that would cause the increase in progesterone. I don't know how.

Fenugreek won't hurt. I used to take 10 g on the day of the party. As long as you time it correctly with your carbs intake, it's one of these herbs that can never go wrong. I'm actually thinking of doubling mine after next week.

[karen]

SP is an anti-estrogen, yes.

OK ... so that answers that one ... Thanks.

Focusing on anti-androgens will work for you, but not for someone who doesn't use testosterone replacement therapy.

The plan is to focus on Testim and Anti-androgens 1st .... getting that to a "balance" and a "routine" ... then to read more-learn more-add more.

It just increases prolactin, and that would cause the increase in progesterone. I don't know how.

Are you saying here that "prolactin" WILL increase "progesterone" but you're not sure how that works? I've been reading that "progesterone" balances excess estrogen BUT the part that isn't clear is if it does that by "adding other things" OR "somehow reducing estrogen"

As long as you time it correctly with your carbs intake, it's one of these herbs that can never go wrong.

How long after taking FG would you wait before getting some carbs in your system ... I've been trying around an hour ... not sure if that's good for the "capsule" and "ingestion"

Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

Quite a few people write that fenugreek ups prolactin, and that the increase in progesterone is a consequence of that. I write "would" because I wonder how they know. It's a chicken and egg situation. Science measures only correlations, no causal relations in this field.

Progesterone balances the effects of excess estrogen. The result is that the symptoms of estrogen dominance do not appear. I don't think the hormone levels change.

Twenty minutes to an hour and a half is OK between fenugreek and carbs. I usually leave twenty minutes in between, because my jar of powdered fenugreek seeds sits between the kitchen herbs. I use it when I start cooking.

[karen]

Hi Karen,

Quite a few people write that fenugreek ups prolactin, and that the increase in progesterone is a consequence of that. I write "would" because I wonder how they know. It's a chicken and egg situation. Science measures only correlations, no causal relations in this field.

Progesterone balances the effects of excess estrogen. The result is that the symptoms of estrogen dominance do not appear. I don't think the hormone levels change.

Twenty minutes to an hour and a half is OK between fenugreek and carbs. I usually leave twenty minutes in between, because my jar of powdered fenugreek seeds sits between the kitchen herbs. I use it when I start cooking.

Thanks ... so here's the latest.

I dropped Saw Palmetto. It seemed like as I added SP the signs of Estrogen became less. That when I started to research and started to find a "sufficient number" of non-advertising type posts that talked about SP having an anti-estrogen effect. That's when I asked your thoughts.

I did get some spearmint tea last week .... that seems to have only anti-androgen effects .... I'll drink that several times during the day.

I also am trying something else. This morning I took 3,000 mg of my Liquid Hops Extract with WATER. On an empty stomach (except for my morning coffee ... don't mess with my morning coffee ) I'm looking for that to be a decent shot of anti-androgen to start with my morning application of Testim.

When I get home from work .... at which time it will be several hours since I ate ... I'm thinking of having another booster of Hops in WATER.

I think I'm going to hold off on Fenugreek as I let the SP get out of my body and hopefully feel signs of Estrogen get strong again.

I can control that environment fairly easily ... I just have to be precise in what I take, take good notes, and pay attention.

Once I understand all of that I'll add my Hops Strobile with Oatmeal back into the mix before bedtime and see if it spikes my Estrogen signs ... I still haven't determined for sure if I create 8-pn with digested Hops ... there were always so many other variables going on.

Thanks for your help ....

Karen

[Squirrel with boobs]

hi isabelle,

if fennel has a progestinic effect, should i only take it during the later half oh my cycle (being a woman)? would taking too much fennel hinder my growth? i just bought a bag of fennel seeds and i'm eating or adding it to my tea throughout the day. i've just started doing that, but was wondering if it's a bad idea to take more fennel than FG?

also, based on your experience, do you think GABA makes a good addition to NBE program?

i've been cutting down on carbs and sugar too and feeling great. i battled with acne when i started NBE last year. i found taking zinc helps alleviate the inflamed acne tenfold! i'm taking plenty of vitamin D, B, and Zinc now.

Fennel seed is a natural galactagalogue (milk producer) as well as a relaxant that stimulates the MER (milk Ejection reflex), so unless you intend to start lactating, be careful on dosage.

[Squirrel with boobs]

Using fenugreek, does increase prolactin, a main chemical signal for the brain to lactate. Without prolactin, the breasts will not produce milk. However, anyone using fenugreek that is Diabetic should be very careful, due to the side effects of dropping blood sugar levels. ( may be contraindicating with insulin) IF you are diabetic, monitor your blood levels very carefully, and is not recommended taking on empty stomach as your body is already looking for food to convert into blood sugar via insulin.

However, if you are diabetic and have already high bloodsugars, then this may be a help, just use caution.

[karen]

Found this article this morning.

Interesting as to how Soy can effect estrogen levels in your body

http://www.babycenter.com/404_can-soy-is...0364266.bc

Even how different soys can have different effects

And here another one about how soy "can" be antagonistic to estrogen binding

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/66/2/1241

Karen

[karen]

I found this paper about Xanthohumol from hops

http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjour...tracts/B79

In the paper this statement is made

"Xanthohumol (XN), a prenylated chalcone from hops, possesses a broad spectrum of chemopreventive actions, including anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, and anti-estrogenic mechanisms, and inhibits tumor growth in vitro and in vivo."

So what's with that one

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Searching more I found this one ....

http://www.actahort.org/books/848/848_20.htm

It states " Although hops is commonly linked with phytoestrogenic effects, we identified XN as a pure estrogen antagonist."

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So many contradictory papers .... so many varying results.

Is the reality to herbs that it is totally different for everyone? And that we all need to try different things until we find what works. Is it more of an "art" than a "science". I can tell you this ... it IS frustrating AND confusing.

Is something considered estrogen antagonistic if it competes with natural estrogen for recepters? If that's the case what's really going on here? Is that bad? Does it not matter?

karen

[lostacres6]

Have 2 questions:
RE: Estrogen antagonist - what if you're postmenopausal & don't have hormones to begin with? Then there's no competition, right?
Also, I've been reading about Hops strobiles. What's the difference between them & Hops flower?
Thanks to anyone who can answer me.