[Isabelle]

OK Susan,

These side effects are all if horse tail is used with other things, or if it causes excessive urination. Any herbal tea can cause that.

I don't take much horse tail: only 200 mg every 3 days. I take it in one of my multivitamins. I like it because it contains silicic acid. Most of my silicic acid, I get from eating apples with the cores, but without the seed: those contain toxins.

I ate fresh horse tail last summer, and it tastes just like apple cores. Silicic acid is for hair. Hair is dead keratin. Feeding the root of the hair is what you need to do for good hair growth. Because the root keeps pushing keratin out all day and night, I read somewhere you need to feed it regularly: every 8 hours. That's why I eat apples during the day.

Most hair supplements are too strong to take every 8 hours. They contain vitamin doses that are above the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) in a single capsule. But that's improving with the new regulations in the EU and US. I checked the label of a 50+ multi in a store yesterday, and it has all I need in the right doses, for one capsule a day or every two days. Now find one that has three capsules as the recommended daily dose.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle,

Oh Ok...you take it too..and use to take on its own..good to know..then I will keep it the dose I have now which is about 500 mgs, hope that isnt to high..now I have powder is it better to eat or do tea..

Oh hops is the best ..enough said.. the only thing, it does help me sleep, but I still manage to get up to pee like a million times, so my sleep gets ruined sp? hence kind of tired in the morning so I need maca to help some..

Today I decided to keep 1 maca in, take 1 SP cause mostly of the estrogen effect but wonder if it really does help block DHT, if not hops will do the job. The reason I kept the maca in cause I want some testoserone and to keep the DHEA and adrenals in good working.

[Isabelle]

Woww Susan,

These are tough questions. I wouldn't make tea from horse tail, because orthosilicic acid is the one you want, and it's not thermally stable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicic_acid
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7660&pid=25026#pid25026

Strange that you need to get up often at night. I used to have the same problem, but it was caused by the pressure from gas. I don't remember everything I changed, but moving fenugreek to noon helped.

SP blocks DHT no better or no worse than hops. But a friend recently showed me this:
http://www.jbc.org/content/265/11/6048.full.pdf
This sentence struck me:
"125I-SHBG could be prevented
from binding to its receptor by a variety of steroids
whose relative inhibitory activity (dihydrotestosterone
>> 2-methoxyestradiol > testosterone > estradiol >>>
methyltrienolone > cortisol) was almost identical to
their relative ability to bind to SHBG."
So DHT binds to SHBG stronger than testosterone. That's no surprise, but somehow I never thought about that. That means if hops or SP won't completely block testosterone becoming DHT, SHBG will pick up the DHT that does get made. So SHBG is a kind of safety net, picking up the last DHT the anti-androgens don't stop.

Taking large amounts of flax for weeks or months increases SHBG. So now I understand why flax is in NBE programs, and why it worked well in my experiments. It's a different kind of anti-androgen.

[beachbumbythesea]

Woww Susan,

These are tough questions. I wouldn't make tea from horse tail, because orthosilicic acid is the one you want, and it's not thermally stable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicic_acid
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7660&pid=25026#pid25026

Sorry Isabelle, now you know what my man goes through when I think about normal things in life and anaylze them..kind of like why is the sky blue..Oh wow..I thought eating it was toxic but read that link I posted and decided to put it in my shake..not sure if it is the horsetail or what but this time my shake made me tired not sure if putting the horsetail or not did it ..or I maybe getting not enough or too much carbs, I put alfalfa in too but dont think it was tha..anyway ok will eat it instead, fine with me cause teas are a pain sometimes..rather put in shake and down it all at once..

Strange that you need to get up often at night. I used to have the same problem, but it was caused by the pressure from gas. I don't remember everything I changed, but moving fenugreek to noon helped.

Yeah I know, I will try not to drink to much before bed then and see what happens.. moving FG what is the purpose for that ..haha I did have it last night in tea form maybe that was a mistake, hence more peeing.. and I think horsetail same thing cause after my shake an hour ago I had to pee alot..so experimenting more I will have to say the gas department pretty good and in the morning (not to sound gross) how can I put this I am really regular 2 and as for the whole day maybe total of 3x's, thats a good sign I am not holding toxins for acne and joint pain..etc.. And go figure this I weighed myself this morning and I weigh 4 lbs less from about 2 weeks ago, but the girls are the same size, stomach pretty flat..but feeling fuller..oh I stopped my homemade lotions..I bought a lotion yesterday and it smells sooooo yummy it is by organix "ever slim coconut milk and white chocolate (body shaping souffle) it has this in it:

water, stearic acid, glycerin, cetyl alcohol, dimethicone, glycine soja (soybean) oil, caprylic capric triglyceride, isopropyl mystirate, hydroxyethyl cellulose, fragance, cocoa nucifera(coconut) extract, theobroma cacao (cocoa bean) extract, Theobroma caca seed butter (cocoa butter) pheoxyethanol, ethylhexyglycerin.

It goes on nice and absorbs nice too..smell sooooo awesome and feels great..

SP blocks DHT no better or no worse than hops. But a friend recently showed me this:
http://www.jbc.org/content/265/11/6048.full.pdf
This sentence struck me:
"125I-SHBG could be prevented
from binding to its receptor by a variety of steroids
whose relative inhibitory activity (dihydrotestosterone
>> 2-methoxyestradiol > testosterone > estradiol >>>
methyltrienolone > cortisol) was almost identical to
their relative ability to bind to SHBG."
So DHT binds to SHBG stronger than testosterone. That's no surprise, but somehow I never thought about that. That means if hops or SP won't completely block testosterone becoming DHT, SHBG will pick up the DHT that does get made. So SHBG is a kind of safety net, picking up the last DHT the anti-androgens don't stop.

Taking large amounts of flax for weeks or months increases SHBG. So now I understand why flax is in NBE programs, and why it worked well in my experiments. It's a different kind of anti-androgen.

Wow great info ...wooo you did so much work ..thank you very much.. now flaxseed oil doesnt count ..huh.. now I thought flaxs wasnt good...man confusing but I understand...maybe that is why the recommend flaxseed oil though for pcos people which I think is me too.. now in your opinion do I need soy with the herbs I am using?

Again thank you Isabelle..they may have been hard questions but you answered them and gained good info for yourself ..huh..

[Isabelle]

Yes Susan,

We learn most from tough questions. The first one to find the reason why the sky is blue was Leonardo da Vinci. You're in good company

A regular intestine function is great for experimenting with herbs. You can vary the time at which you take each herb, and experiment until your day runs like clockwork

The lotion looks great. Good oils

Flax is complex. I just take the whole seed, because some of the goodies are in the oil, and others are in the fibers. Just experiment: flax has so many pros and cons and ifs and buts. Reading on flax only raised more questions for me. But in every experiment I did, flax worked.

Soy is difficult too. I just wrote in another thread it can set the clock back to day time, after hops set it to night time. Try it, but remember to take l-tyrosine and kelp or another iodine source for your thyroid. Soy increases SHBG too, just like flax. It's phyto-estrogen, anti-androgen, and protein. A good NBE food: on the list to try

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle,

Wow you know alot..it was Leonardo Da Vinci..ok now I need to read it..cool ..good info..

Dam yes trying to find the balance of when to take test herbs..well today my lack of sleep caught up with me and I napped for about 3 hours..is that still a nap I needed that so much and I feel better..I think horsetail makes me sleepy..know I do you take FG before after or durning eating.. sometimes it FG makes me sleepy and sometimes not..trying to figure that out.

Ok...so Flax and soy just about to the same..ok..going to reread about flaxseed oil ...aaaaaaaaagain...the only soy I have is soy milk so not sure how effective it is..but I guess best to drink in the morning?..hmm

Well what are you doing up so late..if I dont hear from you after this post have a great nights sleep and Happy Thanksgiving..

[Isabelle]

Happy Thanksgiving Susan,

I want to thank you for being here, and for addressing the difficult questions

I got up again last night to read the latest threads, but then my internet connection got slow. So went back to bed, and got up late this morning. So my sleeping rhythm is all messed up too. Maybe it's this indian summer: I still saw a starflower on a borage plant yesterday. They normally flower in spring and summer

It's possible that horse tail makes you sleepy. I never took enough to find out much about the side effects.

Fenugreek will certainly take away your energy. I take it in the afternoon now. It increases insulin immediately, so the first 15 minuts I have enough energy to put away my stuff and make something to eat. If I wouldn't eat after fenugreek, I'd get tired because of low blood sugar. I still do, and usually take a nap until the food gives me energy again. So if you need to keep going, it's probably better to eat before fenugreek.

I haven't tried soy milk recently. It's quite effective: one cup (237 ml) contains 20 times more phyto-estrogen than 2,000 mg hops:
http://www.cancersupportivecare.com/estrogenherbdata.html#table3
But because it slows the thyroid, many people lose weight on it, so their breasts don't grow.

[beachbumbythesea]

Happy Thanksgiving Susan,

I want to thank you for being here, and for addressing the difficult questions

Goodmorning Isabelle,

I thank you for being there to help me with NBE and other things too.. You make it so much easier to understand NBE..

I got up again last night to read the latest threads, but then my internet connection got slow. So went back to bed, and got up late this morning. So my sleeping rhythm is all messed up too. Maybe it's this indian summer: I still saw a starflower on a borage plant yesterday. They normally flower in spring and summer

Me too..took hops at about 9:30 and didnt make me tired, even woke up around 1:30 after a creepy dream I had, I had so many weird dreams last night, now this morning I feel annoyed just a little bit from them but will get over it..along with the dumb ass dreams my arms kept waking me up from going numb this morning my left side of my neck hurts..thinking about drinking some turmeric tea that usually helps with the muscle stiffness or jump in the shower first cause not sure if the turmeric will make me less estrogenic or is the neck and mood showing me I have good levels of estrogen..also not sure if I want to take maca..so far this morning (knock on wood) my face has no acne what so ever, feels smooth, and chin hairs maybe 1 or 2 or none for me that is wicked good.. last night I took flaxseed oil and codliver oil with the hops protein shake.. I was thinking the times I get tired from the hops is when I have it with complex carbs like wheat germ, flaxseed groud, havent had it with oats yet, so going to see tonight what happens.. today I was thinking of just taking SP, FG, hops..no GR.. also when I make a tea of
FG and GR with GR being more mgs to FG I get a very calming effect..I feel very level and calm almost like I had some wine...but yet I drink hops I feel nothing much..I am thinking of making a hops tea this morning too..now part of me is almost wanting to not taking anything except hops tonight and SP only this morning and forget the rest..and back to the dreams they were about NBE and I thought about those dreams and I think I should stop obessing sp? again with NBE, I do better when I just take what I need and go about the day..so going to do this today..wow that was alot of rambling..sorry

It's possible that horse tail makes you sleepy. I never took enough to find out much about the side effects.

Fenugreek will certainly take away your energy. I take it in the afternoon now. It increases insulin immediately, so the first 15 minuts I have enough energy to put away my stuff and make something to eat. If I wouldn't eat after fenugreek, I'd get tired because of low blood sugar. I still do, and usually take a nap until the food gives me energy again. So if you need to keep going, it's probably better to eat before fenugreek.

Fenugreek is very odd with me, I am very sensitive with it.. but sometimes it doesnt bother at all..I guess it all depends on how much insulin is available to be released..right..maybe today would be a good day to take FG after I eat..if I fall asleep then I can blame the turkey

I haven't tried soy milk recently. It's quite effective: one cup (237 ml) contains 20 times more phyto-estrogen than 2,000 mg hops:
http://www.cancersupportivecare.com/estrogenherbdata.html#table3
But because it slows the thyroid, many people lose weight on it, so their breasts don't grow.

Really your kidding me..that much..wow ..so is it not good to take together with hops I wonder..would it fight over the receptors and make them lower..cause last night I took the hops shake and didnt get sleepy then when I woke at 1:30 I put more into a little bit of soymilk and still nothing..didnt even get the sweets, some tita feelings but not like the other times and I usually wake with some fullness and today not much..I did that before and got the same thing..I really think for some reason when taken with a complex carb it makes a dif..doesnt hops have effect also on insulin too..but you would think it would make energy..me confused about why it makes me sleepy sometimes and sometimes not.. I believe I have high prolactin levels cause I am always hummm lets say ready to see my man so I think GR will be put off for a few days..because if simulating the breasts produce prolactin then using the NB is doing that so taking a break from that too..yes good point about the Indian summer...wow did it again with the rambing..wooo

[Isabelle]

Hi Susan,

I don't really know about hops and soy together. The phyto-estrogens in soy are two weak ones, genistein and daidzein. But hops and soy are in Eve M's program, and she grew on it. When I get around to it, I'll do some soy experiments. I plan to use it in the morning, because it sets the biological clock to daytime, after hops set it to night time by actvating the melatonin receptor.

Hops always makes me sleepy, but only for an hour or so. After that, I can wake up with a clear mind. In the beginning, I had very vivid dreams from hops too. I had pain shoots during massage the first month, but the growth spurt since September went without pains. Both you and Soonenough get swelling. I wake up with swelling too, but I always thought that was from my evening cup of goat's rue tea. I always take hops with complex carbs, because I read - can't remember where - it does something to insulin, yes. I think you don't get sleepy if you use hops with soy: soy sets the clock back to day time. That's why I think Eve could take the hops in the morning without needing a nap right away.

In men, high prolactin decreases libido. My sex drive is highest in the morning, before the first cup of goat's rue tea, and even before the maca. So if you stop goat's rue tea, you'll be thinking about your man all the time

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle,

I was reading about spearmint tea and topicals, cause I have spearmint essencial oil that I thought of using on my face for the facial hairs they say it can get rid of them, some that were taking SP said it helped ther chin hairs but they were lossing hair on there head too..cause I have been shedding more lately and not sure if it is hops or SP..well I know you wrote something about soy lowing SHBG and dont want that either cause you said that they can take up the free testoserone (DHT) so, oh not sure if I want to take flaxseed oil..I dont know if the first use of hops simulated my hair on head which made it shed now I hope to get new growth, cause I heard this happening too..I just do not want to shed anymore hair, and I remember you said you are getting or was getting hairloss is it related to hops? or was it just hormones going up and down too much cause that can cause it too..dam hard to say....I do have to say on PM my hair was doing really well or else it was msm, just started adding that too..oh yeah it could be horsetail too..hmmm maybe I went through a shedding to get it going..dont know..or stress...I dont feel stressed but stress doesnt always have to be in a worry or anixous way either..well I just hope I dont loss anymore hair on head now right now my titas are itchy, tingling, and sharp zings..the only thing I had today that I havent had in over a year was like a shots worth of wine and that was over 4 hours ago..weird..

Oh so hops just makes you sleepy for a short time..ok I thought it last for a good 2-3 hours.. so there is some connection with the carbs and hops..ok going to add ground flaxseed to my tea

Haha...I dont know but I think I have very high testoserone or what cause for some reason I am ready just about all the time and mine is higher in the morning too, it use to be at night..and with my man he makes me feel this way alot, and when I am with him and just touching him it gets me in a way that no one has, I just want to be one with him, like jump inside him...Yes the vivid dreams I had one about him, I remember the sweater he was wearing and in the dream it was the left side of his back, shoulder, and arm..I come up along side him and touch him near his shoulder blade and got this flow of like electric warmth and it overwhelmed me with I guess you can say love just at that moment I woke up..I get this feeling in person with him too... today I called him to wish him a Happy Thanksgiving and he said I was just scrolling down to look for your number to call you when I called..we do that alot..Well I am rambling alot once again..I have a feeling he may be picking me up Sunday night or early next week..I hope I miss him..its hard to talk to him on the phone I just want to grab him and bite him (love bite) haha on his wick awesome ass cheek.. ok I am done for now