[Isabelle]

I'm still wondering whether I'm not taking too much flax. In the publication I linked above, the people got twice as much SDG as isoxanthohumol.

Hops pellets contain 0.62 g isoxanthohumol per 100 g:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021967306015640
The numbers for dried hops are not very different.

Whole flax seeds contain between 6.1 and 13.3 mg/g secoisolariciresinol diglucoside (SDG):
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0005871
That's between 0.61 and 1.33 g per 100 g, or on average 0.97 g.

That means my flax dose should be 2 * 0.62 / 0.97 = 1.3 times higher than my hops dose, or 1.3 * 2,500 = 3,300 mg, and not the 30,000 I'm taking now.

Eve M took 1,800 mg hops and 1,000 mg linseed and 800 mg oats. So I'll finish my current experiment with equal doses of flax and oats, and then decrease both flax and oats.

[Isabelle]

Hi sfita,

The conclusion I wrote in my previous post about soy was too general. It's OK to use soy and other isoflavones together.

In the article I linked in that post, the conlusion is stated as:
"Moreover, the exposure to E2β after intake of food supplements containing only isoflavones exceeded (Δ = 57.1%, P = 0.002) the superimposed activities of isoflavones, prenylflavonoids, and lignans in the mixture." So 57 % more β estrogen receptors are activated by estradiol (E2) if isoflavones are used by themselves. However, the article is only about soy isoflavones, and this conclusion is only about β estrogen receptors (no α) and estradiol (no estriol or estrone).

Susan and I have been working on a longer list of phyto-estrogens. This is how far we got:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10543&pid=40101#pid40101

I copied the list below, and added dandelion:
- PM (messes up cycles)
- soy (slows the thyroid)
- flax
- panax ginseng (estriol only: use every 1-4 hours, as tea or cream)
- yellow dock
- sheep sorrel
- milk thistle (liver cleanser too)
- red clover (phyto-progestin too)
- licorice (phyto-progestin, anti-androgen, and inceases prolactin too)
- turmeric (strong phyto-progestin too)
- thyme (strong phyto-progestin too)
- vervain (verbena officinalis, strong phyto-progestin too)
- yucca (strong phyto-progestin too)
- shatavari tea
- dandelion
- wild yam (not a phyto-estrogen, but contains diosgenin, and a 16α-hydroxyestrone blocker)

Now the next question is which ones contain isoflavones. The isoflavones can be used together with soy.
- PM: miroestrol is a chromene, not an isoflavonoid: http://www.actahort.org/books/680/680_12.htm, but PM does contain isoflavonoids
- panax ginseng: saponins, no isoflavones
- yellow dock: no isoflavones
- sheep sorrel: no isoflavones
- milk thistle: flavonolignans, no isoflavones
- red clover: isoflavones http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378512202000804
- licorice: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031942200970420
- turmeric: curcumin, no isoflavones http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pros.21147/abstract
- thyme: luteolin, no isoflavones http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00050a029
- vervain (verbena officinalis): flavonoids http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378874100002956
- yucca: saponins, no isoflavones http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf970389i
- shatavari: no isoflavones
- dandelion: no isoflavones http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0031942295008659

Soy contains lignans too: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002822397007657

Alfalfa contains isoflavones too. " Isoflavones are produced almost exclusively by the members of the Fabaceae (i.e., Leguminosae, or bean) family:"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoflavones
These contain isoflavones: psoralea, soybean, green bean, alfalfa sprout, mung bean sprout, cowpea, kudzu root, red clover blossom and red clover sprout, chick pea and peanuts.

So from our common NBE herbs, red clover, licorice, and alfalfa are the best to use together with soy.

[Isabelle]

I'm still wondering whether doses of soy milk should really be small. The same people who published the hops-flax-soy cosupplementation study
"Cosupplementation of isoflavones, prenylflavonoids, and lignans alters human exposure to phytoestrogen-derived 17β-estradiol equivalents"
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/12/2293.full
looked into safety of soy and hops:

Disposition of soy isoflavones in normal human breast tissue. "After intake of soy milk and soy supplements, isoflavones reach exposure levels in breast tissue at which potential health effects may occur."
http://www.ajcn.org/content/91/4/976.full
This was for 250 ml soy milk three times daily.

Disposition of hop prenylflavonoids in human breast tissue
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mnfr.200900519/abstract
"Low doses of prenylflavonoids are unlikely to elicit estrogenic responses in breast tissue."
The low dose is three supplements daily for 5 days. The supplement was the same as in the hops-flax-soy cosupplementation study:
2.04 mg xanthohumol (XN), 1.20 mg isoxanthohumol (IX), and 0.1 mg 8-prenylnaringenin (8-PN) per supplement.

In my post # 661 at the top of this page, I linked a publication, reporting that hops pellets contain 0.62 g isoxanthohumol per 100 g. So 1.20 mg isoxanthohumol is 100 * 1.20/620 = 0.2 g hops pellets, or 200 mg, three times daily makes 600 mg.

From my own experience, I agree that 600 mg hops is too little for NBE. Using the same methods, the authors came to the conclusion that 750 ml soy milk is enough for "health effects" to occur. So if you want to start soy milk, don't drink a bottle every day

[miabella]

Should the flax be the kind with Lignans or without? I've heard both ways.

[sfita]

Hi Isabelle:
so the total daily dose of both soy and licorice should be....?
and does it make difference if i take progestenic herbs(FG,Fennel,Turmeric) in the latter half of my cycle and estrogenic herbs(soy) in the first half?
i mean boost progesterone in the 2nd half and boost estrogen in the first. and iam thinking of taking licorice in both halfs since its a whole program by itself.

[Isabelle]

Hi miabella,

I use whole flax seeds, so that's with the lignans, and it works. But from what I've read in the publications above, the phyto-estrogens in flax and hops and soy decrease each other's effectiveness if used together. So if you plan to use flax seed oil as a source of omega-3 fatty acids in large quantities, you need the one without the lignans.

I use 30 g of whole flax seed. Whole flax seed are 20 % oil, so I assume up to 6 g of oil a day is OK, even with the lignans.

[Isabelle]

Hi sfita,

I'm still struggling with the dose of soy. The equivalent of my hops dose in soy milk is only 15 ml! That's about the size of an espresso. The dose where soy milk gets dangerous is 750 ml. So start very low, and work your way up to where you feel tingles.

For licorice tea, I drink two cups a day, and I've never tried a whole pot in one day.

One advantage of cycling is cost: you use each herb when it's most effective. Your plan looks good

[Isabelle]

Hi again sfita,

This is where I calculated the 15 ml soy milk:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10643&pid=41053#pid41053

I hope someone on the forum takes the time to do the experiment, starting at 15 ml, and ramping up slowly. Because if my calculation is correct, a normal Asian diet contains a stalling dose of soy. That would explain why Asian women don't get breast cancer, and why they have so much difficulty growing big.

[sfita]

Hi isabelle:
according to this site,
http://www.soyfoods.com/nutrition/isoflavoneconcentration.html
the total isoflavone content per gram would be much higher for soy powder than soy milk.
so ground soy beans would be much more effective?

[mochaccino]

Isabelle, I just wanted to chime in to say you are awesome The cosupplementation study is especially interesting. It would take me forever to point out everything about that study that interests me, but the details they gave about the differences in "the in vitro microbial metabolism of isoflavones, prenylflavonoids, and lignans", are really shocking. I knew there were differences in the way individuals metabolize phytoestrogens, but I never realized the differences were so stark. This is just a highlight for anyone who is interested:
As expected, the in vitro microbial metabolism of isoflavones, prenylflavonoids, and lignans varied from 0 to 100% conversion of daidzein into equol (SOY incubations), IX into 8-PN (HOP incubations), and SECO into ENL (FLAX incubations). Consequently, participants were phenotyped as poor (n = 65, 68, and 34), moderate (n = 7, 14, and 21), and strong (n = 28, 18, and 45) in vitro equol, 8-PN, and ENL producers, respectively.