27-01-2016, 14:34
CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!
April 24 2007 at 3:26 PM
faerycat (Login faerycat)
SENIOR MEMBER
I know it's a looooooong read girls.......but please try and stick with it to the end.
http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/progesteronecancer.html#progesterone_myth
Am pig sick after reading that. We girls seem doomed! :-{
Stay healthy and safe!
Love
=^_^= x
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 25 2007, 4:40 AM
Wow Faerycat - thanks for the heads up on that article.
That took forever to read and some of the most clearly written stuff was at the end. I think a lot of people may have trouble getting through it all. There was a lot of scientific jargon and professional tit for tat going on in that read.
Basically, it informs us that there is a risk of cancer with the use of progesterone. Just like there is a risk of cancer with the use of estrogen. What this article is trying to debunk is the myth that natural progesterone is completely safe. And I think it does that loud and clear.
What this article does not do is put anything into perspective. In fact, if you read this article all the way through, you may be of the opinion that all women should have their ovaries taken out before puberty to completely remove hormonally driven cancer risks.
Here is one part I found to be helpful (this is the whole transcript):
Early menarche, late menopause, parity, and late age of first pregnancy are each independent risk factors. Early age of menarche translates into earlier hormone exposure to estrogen and progesterone and to breast epithelial cell growth. The ovarian hormones, estrogen and progesterone, play a pivotal, paradoxical role in normal and neoplastic development of the mammary gland. **** Long duration of estrogen and progesterone are associated with increased breast cancer risk, while short duration of pregnancy level doses are associated with reduced breast cancer risk. ***** These hormones induce alterations in gene expression in the mammary epithelial cells, which persist for a long time after the hormones are withdrawn from the host. (Medina D, Endocrine-Related Cancer, 12 (3), 2005)
The starred part is what I wanted to talk about:
**** Long duration of estrogen and progesterone are associated with increased breast cancer risk, while short duration of pregnancy level doses are associated with reduced breast cancer risk. *****
This is saying that there is some protective effect in short duration pregnancy dosages of both of these hormones. This would seem to me to say that as long as we keep our exposure to pregnancy levels and only for the duration of pregnancy (9 months) there should actually be a protective effect.
What are pregnancy levels?? Heck, I don't know, but I am going to find out. I never intended to use progesterone cream forever and now I have a cut off point. 9 months and then no more - and also no more of the vitex since it stimulates progesterone. For me that means the end of June.
Am I worried that I have done harm to myself. Not at all. Since using progesterone cream there has been a tremendous improvement in my over-all health. I am not worried that these changes are temporary. I feel the use of natural progesterone is allowing my body to finally balance a hormone mayhem that has plagued me since puberty.
So is there a risk. Yes, but there seems to be about as much risk from just being female. Like anything else, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. So, limit the amount you use, limit how long you use it and don't worry about it.
At least that how I feel,
waxingmoon
faerycat
(Login faerycat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 25 2007, 8:58 AM
Cheers for your thoughts and feedback on this one waxingmoon ;-)
I did a lot more research after reading that last night. You may like to read what I found as it is the other side of the coin ;-P
http://www.johnleemd.com/store/pgattack.html
http://www.hormonewell.com/release-stay_away_from_prempro_and_premarin.html
Which goes to say, these last 2 articles make a helluva lot more sense than that first one.
It just goes to show how much damage so-called reputable people can cause. Lots of people follow Lynne McTaggart and WDDTY. Hey, Lynne and her cronies just might be correct........but the original article read (imho) as a scathing attack against something they know little about.
How are you getting on with NPC? How long have you been using it? I'm into my second week and so far so good. Will re-evalue things after 3 months, but I do feel comfortable using it.
Love
=^_^= x
PS. If you root around that gaia site, they attack everything from sunscreen to organic veg. Seems that everything out there is gonna kill us.....all except their products........lolz
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 25 2007, 1:47 PM
Yeah, gaia was trying the old 'blinding you with science' routine to promote their opinion. I guess that was what I found most frustrating about that article. They mixed commentary and opinions with scientific summarys. They were also rather biased in how they highlighted certain parts of articles to reflect their progesterone negative view. I liked the end of the article where they just listed the scientific studies. I learned some things and it has helped me reach a decision about when to stop using progesterone cream.
I have been on PC since September 06. I started it because I had all the symptoms of estrogen dominance. I kept with it because from the first week of use so many of my symptoms completely disappeared. The bonus was that I grew an inch the first month I was on it. (by the way, I grew an inch without using it on my breasts - I just applied it to thin skinned areas of my body)
The most pesky symptom that PC helps me with is anxiety that hits me about day 8 of my cycle. It was so strong and yet responded immediately to PC. This was a problem because I had to fight myself to get to day 12 to start applying PC. Vitex has seemed to be the remedy to that.
I have been on vitex since December.
When I started PC I used about 60mg a day. I tapered to 40mg and after a little trouble have now stabilized at 20 mg per day. I use it from day 12 to the first day of my period. I have used it on my breasts in an attempt to rid myself of fibrocystic lumps. I would apply it to my breasts every 3rd day. It worked. No more lumpy breasts.
All in all PC has been very, very good to me. Dr John Lee's books have been my mentor - as well as other research. Dr. Lee always promoted the safe effects found in small amounts (20mg) and I believe he is correct. He never promoted long term use and he never promoted high amounts.
I hope PC will help you out. Remember, your first couple of months may not reveal how much it will help as there is an initial rise in estrogen due to progesterone's activation of estrogen receptors.
Please let me know how you are progressing,
waxingmoon
faerycat
(Login faerycat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 25 2007, 10:43 PM
Hi waxingmoon!
Am into my 2nd week of NPC, perimenopausal.... and my boobs have shrunk.
My whole body has shrunk as the NPC seems to have sloughed off all the excess estrogenic weight.........but *sobs* my boobs have gone too :-{
Is this normal do you know?
When I got the hormone results back last week, I just quit all the herbs n stuff I'd been taking, including vitex. Decided to go back on vitex today as I do feel that something else at least is needed to keep me down. Am trying to fight constant fatigue, sore knee and ankle joints, mood swings, depression, anxiety etc. So far, no bloating this month, but it is early days. I mean, lately I can remain normal and thin til the day of my period..........then BAMMO!!..........instant swell round thighs and bum. It's weird. I can go into the shower in the morning skinny and emerge looking like a whale. I used to swell gradually on the week leading up to a period. So not sure what is gonna happen next week.
But the boob shrink has really pooped me off. Had worked sooooo hard to grow them, now this.
Any help or advice much appreciated.
x
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 26 2007, 2:53 AM
Hi Faerycat,
I think you may be reacting to something other than NPC. (although of course we all can have very different reactions to the same substances...)
The initial response to progesterone cream is usually an increase in estrogen symptoms. You say you have 'sloughed off' your estrogen weight, but I don't think so. Not this soon into PC use.
I can see how weight loss, no matter what the cause could be responsible for your apparent loss of breast size.
Your symptoms sound a lot like estrogen dominance, but they also sound like hypothyroid. And yes, estrogen dominance makes hypothyroidism more likely.
I think these last 12 days you have had a big fluid retention loss - or perhaps dehydrated. If you were overdoing it on estrogen herbs, strangely enough, you may have shut down your receptors with a lower dose form of estrogen. (it all depends on what herbs you were using)
Now you are using PC, which has made available more estrogen receptors, but they might still be filled by the overload of estrogen herbs. If you have lost body fat, you have released stored estrogen (which collects in body fat).
One thing for sure, you are one unhappy hormonally imbalanced lady right now. However, the body is a 'self cleaning oven'. This is by no means permanent. Also as I recall, you are like me, in your 40's which is a time of perimenopausal mayhem.
Here is my suggestion. Stay on PC this cycle. Keep taking the vitex for at least 3 months. You may do better to NOT use PC until this storm passes. As I said, the initial body reaction to PC is an increase in estrogen effect. You don't need that right now, - but don't stop abruptly since you already began it this cycle. When your period comes, stop using the cream.
What you should do in the mean time is :
Drink plenty of water (10 -8 ounce glasses a day - this will rehydrate you and flush out your tissues)
Massage your breasts twice a day for at least 5 minutes (improve the circulation in your breast and stimulate prolactin which may help with this hormone storm)
Take 25 grams of whey protein powder twice a day (this allows your body to build whatever hormones it needs and will support NBE)
Take 2000 - 5000 mg of buffered vitamin C per day (a precursor to collagen - an anti-inflammatory -good support for a body in crisis)
Take psyllium husk or other fiber daily (helps reduce toxins)
Sleep 7 - 10 hours per day (sleep phases are when our body does most of its 'repair' work and hormone building)
Keep that wonderful positive attitude going! This too shall pass and your breast will be as big and beautiful as before.
Keep us posted of how you are doing. We are all rooting for you.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
P.S. - thanks for all the great links to articles lately -you have really added to my research lists
Anon Man
(no login)
I think Dr Lee is probably correct
April 26 2007, 4:20 AM
I think womens hormones are a very complex balancing act. I haven't read his books, I am still reading and learning too, but it sounds like there is a certain lever of estrogen and progesterone that keeps your bodies healthy. After menopause your bodies lose their pre menopausal levels of hormones. That must be part of the trigger that sets off these cancers. Yes, some is diet, some is exercise, stress, but if you can track your hormone levels prior to menopause, and after, I wonder if you have better luck in staying healthy?
April 24 2007 at 3:26 PM
faerycat (Login faerycat)
SENIOR MEMBER
I know it's a looooooong read girls.......but please try and stick with it to the end.
http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/progesteronecancer.html#progesterone_myth
Am pig sick after reading that. We girls seem doomed! :-{
Stay healthy and safe!
Love
=^_^= x
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 25 2007, 4:40 AM
Wow Faerycat - thanks for the heads up on that article.
That took forever to read and some of the most clearly written stuff was at the end. I think a lot of people may have trouble getting through it all. There was a lot of scientific jargon and professional tit for tat going on in that read.
Basically, it informs us that there is a risk of cancer with the use of progesterone. Just like there is a risk of cancer with the use of estrogen. What this article is trying to debunk is the myth that natural progesterone is completely safe. And I think it does that loud and clear.
What this article does not do is put anything into perspective. In fact, if you read this article all the way through, you may be of the opinion that all women should have their ovaries taken out before puberty to completely remove hormonally driven cancer risks.
Here is one part I found to be helpful (this is the whole transcript):
Early menarche, late menopause, parity, and late age of first pregnancy are each independent risk factors. Early age of menarche translates into earlier hormone exposure to estrogen and progesterone and to breast epithelial cell growth. The ovarian hormones, estrogen and progesterone, play a pivotal, paradoxical role in normal and neoplastic development of the mammary gland. **** Long duration of estrogen and progesterone are associated with increased breast cancer risk, while short duration of pregnancy level doses are associated with reduced breast cancer risk. ***** These hormones induce alterations in gene expression in the mammary epithelial cells, which persist for a long time after the hormones are withdrawn from the host. (Medina D, Endocrine-Related Cancer, 12 (3), 2005)
The starred part is what I wanted to talk about:
**** Long duration of estrogen and progesterone are associated with increased breast cancer risk, while short duration of pregnancy level doses are associated with reduced breast cancer risk. *****
This is saying that there is some protective effect in short duration pregnancy dosages of both of these hormones. This would seem to me to say that as long as we keep our exposure to pregnancy levels and only for the duration of pregnancy (9 months) there should actually be a protective effect.
What are pregnancy levels?? Heck, I don't know, but I am going to find out. I never intended to use progesterone cream forever and now I have a cut off point. 9 months and then no more - and also no more of the vitex since it stimulates progesterone. For me that means the end of June.
Am I worried that I have done harm to myself. Not at all. Since using progesterone cream there has been a tremendous improvement in my over-all health. I am not worried that these changes are temporary. I feel the use of natural progesterone is allowing my body to finally balance a hormone mayhem that has plagued me since puberty.
So is there a risk. Yes, but there seems to be about as much risk from just being female. Like anything else, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. So, limit the amount you use, limit how long you use it and don't worry about it.
At least that how I feel,
waxingmoon
faerycat
(Login faerycat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 25 2007, 8:58 AM
Cheers for your thoughts and feedback on this one waxingmoon ;-)
I did a lot more research after reading that last night. You may like to read what I found as it is the other side of the coin ;-P
http://www.johnleemd.com/store/pgattack.html
http://www.hormonewell.com/release-stay_away_from_prempro_and_premarin.html
Which goes to say, these last 2 articles make a helluva lot more sense than that first one.
It just goes to show how much damage so-called reputable people can cause. Lots of people follow Lynne McTaggart and WDDTY. Hey, Lynne and her cronies just might be correct........but the original article read (imho) as a scathing attack against something they know little about.
How are you getting on with NPC? How long have you been using it? I'm into my second week and so far so good. Will re-evalue things after 3 months, but I do feel comfortable using it.
Love
=^_^= x
PS. If you root around that gaia site, they attack everything from sunscreen to organic veg. Seems that everything out there is gonna kill us.....all except their products........lolz
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 25 2007, 1:47 PM
Yeah, gaia was trying the old 'blinding you with science' routine to promote their opinion. I guess that was what I found most frustrating about that article. They mixed commentary and opinions with scientific summarys. They were also rather biased in how they highlighted certain parts of articles to reflect their progesterone negative view. I liked the end of the article where they just listed the scientific studies. I learned some things and it has helped me reach a decision about when to stop using progesterone cream.
I have been on PC since September 06. I started it because I had all the symptoms of estrogen dominance. I kept with it because from the first week of use so many of my symptoms completely disappeared. The bonus was that I grew an inch the first month I was on it. (by the way, I grew an inch without using it on my breasts - I just applied it to thin skinned areas of my body)
The most pesky symptom that PC helps me with is anxiety that hits me about day 8 of my cycle. It was so strong and yet responded immediately to PC. This was a problem because I had to fight myself to get to day 12 to start applying PC. Vitex has seemed to be the remedy to that.
I have been on vitex since December.
When I started PC I used about 60mg a day. I tapered to 40mg and after a little trouble have now stabilized at 20 mg per day. I use it from day 12 to the first day of my period. I have used it on my breasts in an attempt to rid myself of fibrocystic lumps. I would apply it to my breasts every 3rd day. It worked. No more lumpy breasts.
All in all PC has been very, very good to me. Dr John Lee's books have been my mentor - as well as other research. Dr. Lee always promoted the safe effects found in small amounts (20mg) and I believe he is correct. He never promoted long term use and he never promoted high amounts.
I hope PC will help you out. Remember, your first couple of months may not reveal how much it will help as there is an initial rise in estrogen due to progesterone's activation of estrogen receptors.
Please let me know how you are progressing,
waxingmoon
faerycat
(Login faerycat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 25 2007, 10:43 PM
Hi waxingmoon!
Am into my 2nd week of NPC, perimenopausal.... and my boobs have shrunk.
My whole body has shrunk as the NPC seems to have sloughed off all the excess estrogenic weight.........but *sobs* my boobs have gone too :-{
Is this normal do you know?
When I got the hormone results back last week, I just quit all the herbs n stuff I'd been taking, including vitex. Decided to go back on vitex today as I do feel that something else at least is needed to keep me down. Am trying to fight constant fatigue, sore knee and ankle joints, mood swings, depression, anxiety etc. So far, no bloating this month, but it is early days. I mean, lately I can remain normal and thin til the day of my period..........then BAMMO!!..........instant swell round thighs and bum. It's weird. I can go into the shower in the morning skinny and emerge looking like a whale. I used to swell gradually on the week leading up to a period. So not sure what is gonna happen next week.
But the boob shrink has really pooped me off. Had worked sooooo hard to grow them, now this.
Any help or advice much appreciated.
x
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: CANCER HAZARD OF NATURAL PROGESTERONE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 26 2007, 2:53 AM
Hi Faerycat,
I think you may be reacting to something other than NPC. (although of course we all can have very different reactions to the same substances...)
The initial response to progesterone cream is usually an increase in estrogen symptoms. You say you have 'sloughed off' your estrogen weight, but I don't think so. Not this soon into PC use.
I can see how weight loss, no matter what the cause could be responsible for your apparent loss of breast size.
Your symptoms sound a lot like estrogen dominance, but they also sound like hypothyroid. And yes, estrogen dominance makes hypothyroidism more likely.
I think these last 12 days you have had a big fluid retention loss - or perhaps dehydrated. If you were overdoing it on estrogen herbs, strangely enough, you may have shut down your receptors with a lower dose form of estrogen. (it all depends on what herbs you were using)
Now you are using PC, which has made available more estrogen receptors, but they might still be filled by the overload of estrogen herbs. If you have lost body fat, you have released stored estrogen (which collects in body fat).
One thing for sure, you are one unhappy hormonally imbalanced lady right now. However, the body is a 'self cleaning oven'. This is by no means permanent. Also as I recall, you are like me, in your 40's which is a time of perimenopausal mayhem.
Here is my suggestion. Stay on PC this cycle. Keep taking the vitex for at least 3 months. You may do better to NOT use PC until this storm passes. As I said, the initial body reaction to PC is an increase in estrogen effect. You don't need that right now, - but don't stop abruptly since you already began it this cycle. When your period comes, stop using the cream.
What you should do in the mean time is :
Drink plenty of water (10 -8 ounce glasses a day - this will rehydrate you and flush out your tissues)
Massage your breasts twice a day for at least 5 minutes (improve the circulation in your breast and stimulate prolactin which may help with this hormone storm)
Take 25 grams of whey protein powder twice a day (this allows your body to build whatever hormones it needs and will support NBE)
Take 2000 - 5000 mg of buffered vitamin C per day (a precursor to collagen - an anti-inflammatory -good support for a body in crisis)
Take psyllium husk or other fiber daily (helps reduce toxins)
Sleep 7 - 10 hours per day (sleep phases are when our body does most of its 'repair' work and hormone building)
Keep that wonderful positive attitude going! This too shall pass and your breast will be as big and beautiful as before.
Keep us posted of how you are doing. We are all rooting for you.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
P.S. - thanks for all the great links to articles lately -you have really added to my research lists
Anon Man
(no login)
I think Dr Lee is probably correct
April 26 2007, 4:20 AM
I think womens hormones are a very complex balancing act. I haven't read his books, I am still reading and learning too, but it sounds like there is a certain lever of estrogen and progesterone that keeps your bodies healthy. After menopause your bodies lose their pre menopausal levels of hormones. That must be part of the trigger that sets off these cancers. Yes, some is diet, some is exercise, stress, but if you can track your hormone levels prior to menopause, and after, I wonder if you have better luck in staying healthy?