29-01-2016, 20:41
Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008 at 10:24 PM
double_ace (Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Sorry if this is old news or if it's been mentioned already but,
if some of you shrunk with Vitex it may have been because Vitex is a hormone balancer, which means if you were supposed to have higher estrogen levels and lower progesterone levels, and took vitex which decreased your estrogen levels then that would explain why your breasts shrunk.. same with people who have and need higher progesterone levels and after taking the vitex (which then lowered their progesterone levels) they've noticed a shrinkage then this pretty much explains it...
Now on the other hand you have people who grew with it and that may have been because they needed to balance out their hormones to grow which may have meant that they didn't really need more of ''this'' or ''that''.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? I may be worng but it just really makes sense when u look at it this way!
This message has been edited by double_ace on Mar 20, 2008 10:25 PM
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Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:39 PM
I have been trying to figure this out with Vitex for the longest time!
See, all the women in my family are very large (moms a DD, aunts a DD etc) and im now a very small b. Anyways, I was thinking that too, that maybe I did something to unbalance myself (i started to drugs at a young age) and taking vitex would balance me out and make me grow to what I should have. But im so confused when it comes to vitex I just dont know =(
Sorry for rambling-i just wanted to let you know I was wondering the same thing....
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:46 PM
Tianna did you say you did drugs at a young age?
I did too. If that's even what you mean :/
A lot too. My family sounds the same though. In the D or DD area. And I'm just at a b or small c...
Doing drugs [especially during puberty] will for sure stunt your growth. That may have happened to me. I also started smoking cigarettes when i was 12 years old and still do so that may be another reason.
But ever since I started taking Vitex I've only really seen positive. I wish I had a picture of me before taking it but I don't. I was definitely smaller. I would measure myself also but I lost my measuring tape. I need to get one of those. eek!
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:46 PM
what herbs have you tried already? I think a good idea would be to start off with one herb first and see how that goes for a week or two, then add another one, and check for any changes.. that way you know what wroks for you and what doesn't, on top of that it'll be easier to tell if you need more estrogen or progesterone or if u simply need to be balanced (in this case u could try vitex to balance it out.. or maca?)
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:48 PM
I suggest taking a hormone balance test to see where you are at. At the doctor or either online.
If not... then taking Vitex would be a better idea; for anyone. You need to balance out your hormones before you take herbs [for better results] MUCH better.
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:51 PM
Good idea jackie.. never thought of that, by the way Jackie, if u don't mind me asking how old you are?
I just read a post by waikiki and went and googled it myself.. Agnus castus (vitex) contains dopamine which prohibits prolactin (which is needed in breast growth) escpecially if you're still young,
so if you're under the age of 26 it's not recommended to take agnus castus (I read this somewhere on this board).
So I wonder how old the ones that shrunk with vitex were? Maybe they were young?
This message has been edited by double_ace on Mar 20, 2008 10:56 PM
Miles
(no login)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 11:24 PM
Hmmmm, that's interesting about not taking Vitex when you are young. I actually remember reading on here before that the people that actually grew with Progesterone cream were also older (30's and 40's). So, maybe vitex would be more beneficial to those 30 and up? It would be interesting to know how old people were who a) grew on vitex and b) shrunk on vitex. Obviously there are other hormonal factors in play here, but age might also be relevant for this herb.
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 12:07 AM
Oh really? I never heard of that. I heard it's ohkay for all ages. Even though it helps with Menopause.
I'm 17... 18 in 2months exactly.
Hmmm... good question, 'cause I wonder if the people who shrunk WERE young. Do you have any idea why that would be bad if you are younger, just because it produces prolactin?..
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 12:12 AM
Vitex contains dopamine
Girls going through puberty and possibly in their early twenties (26 like waikiki said) produce prolactin
Prolactin helps grow breasts and Dopamine reduces/stops prolactin, and the purpose of increasing prolactin levels is to grow breasts
that's why it's not recommended for younger ones.. i don't know how accurate this is but in theory it's not recommended
This message has been edited by double_ace on Mar 21, 2008 12:27 AM
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 12:32 AM
Ohhh.
Well I would be too bummed to stop NBE so I'll just go give this the rest of the 5 1/2 months and we'll see.
:\
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:04 AM
Hey Jackie, yes thats what I meant. I also started smoking cigarrettes when I was 12.
But yeah I have no doubt the drugs played a huge role. I was a 32C but I had a baby last year and breastfed for a couple months which is where I really lost my boobs =(
I did the hormone test suggested on this forum, but I got confused because I had so many sympotoms from every group so I have no idea what my results are =(
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:09 AM
Also, i havent tried any herbs yet really. After I finished breast feeding I was really upset about my boobs and I went to my local health food store where I found Lafemme Breast and Balance. I took those and grew really quickly. I gained about a cup in 3 weeks, it was amazing. This is what got me started on this. I stopped taking them and have since lost what I gained but im very optimistic because the resukts I got from that. I think a higher quality product and the knowledge I now have will help and I really feel ill get my boobs back =)
I definitely want to take maca as well. I just ordered WU today so we'll see how it goes, but like I said- I feel very confident =)
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:10 AM
So now Im kinda confused, should I get vitex first and try that before WU?
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:14 AM
What size are you at now?
I would either go to a doctor or choose what you most likely fit into [with the hormone test]... look at the symptoms you have in both and see which ones you suffer more with. I'm definitely estrogen dominant so Vitex is my ideal herb.
If you're confused I suggest you go to a doctor for a blood test.
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:18 AM
I would say im a 32B (but I want boobs like yours!!! LOL)
I may have to do that... Im going to go back and do the test again and see what I can come up with.
Thanks Jackie!
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:20 AM
Well, I don't see why you would go get WU when you don't even know for sure that you aren't estrogen dominant.
WU and along with other products like that on the market have a ton of estrogenic herbs in it. About a year ago I took Breast Success with the similiar herbs. I didn't know anything about taking hormone tests at the time and I took it for 3months and one of my boobs shrunk from it because I was taking estrogen producing herbs.
Do you know the ingredients that were in that 'breast and balance' product you took? It would help a lot to know. Because if it helped you even gain SOMEthing, and the herbs in it are estrogen producing then maybe WU would be ohkay for you.
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:34 AM
The breast and balance has Saw palmetto, dong quai, damiana, fenugreek,blessed thisle, fennel, PM, wild yam, marshmallow, hops, violet and cumin (in a proprietary blend)
It also had vitamins E and B6, Folate, zinc, selenium, evening primrose oil, lecithin and maitake mushroom powder.
I got WU because it seemed to have a lot of the same ingredients.
This is my results from the hormone test: From this test : http://www.johnleemd.com/store/resource_hormonetest.html
1) 1
2) 4
3) 4
4) 6
5) 0
6) 2
lol i dunno if that makes any sense to you, but it confuses me cuz on one hand im estrogen deficient, but then I have the same number in estrogen dominant....i might just go get tested by my doc =(
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 2:19 AM
Well I don't know exactly what you checked but the ingredients in the 'breast and balance' are pretty much mostly all estrogen producing herbs so I think it's alright.
Personally I think buying BE pills that contain a bunch of herbs is a waste of money. They tell you to take a certain amount of pills a day but if you think about, it doesn't give you good amount of mg for all the herbs in it. It would take longer to take effect. I would just pick about 3 or 4 herbs that are the most effective for estrogen production and go to the GNC or a vitamin store and buy them and add your massages in with it everyday.
Usually you need to up the dosage on it with pills like that. So if WU tells you to take 1 pill in the morning and 1 pill at night OR 3 pills daily then you should either take 2 pills in the morning and 2 at night or 2 with every meal [6 a day]. Much more effective if you take 4-6 a day.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 12:06 PM
I believe the reason some women ''shrunk'' on vitex is because by balancing hormones vitex gets rid of water retention. Estrogen is not the sole key to breast growth. If it was, all women would grow on BCP (but only the minority do). I've also heard of NBE cases where women went and got high doses of estrogen on perscription, and they didn't grow at all (but rather ended up with scary lumps). Another thing is that while adding estrogen *might* in the right circumstances cause growth, that does not necessarily translate into removing estrogen causes breasts to shrink. So I'm more inclined to the hypothesis that it's getting rid of water retention.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:26 PM
There is a really great section in Eve's forum called Information on Herbs
http://www.network54.com/Forum/484503/
In it you can find information on most of the herbs used for NBE. This is from the thread about vitex:
Vitex works by stimulating the production of luteinizing hormone (LH) and suppressing the production of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH). This in turn causes the corpus luteum to secrete more progesterone. Progesterone suppresses the production of prolaction. Also, vitex has components that bind to the dopamine receptor sites of the pituitary, inhibiting prolactin secretion. http://www.kellymom.com/herbal/milksupply/herbal-rem_c.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vitex does not contain dopamine, but it does bind to dopamine receptor sites and stimulates dopamine production. This reduces prolactin which in turn enhances the body's ability to produce more progesterone.
When progesterone levels increase they inhibit some of the symptoms that 'unbound estrogen' can cause (think of unbound estrogen as estrogen that does not have a progesterone partner). One of the symptoms of unbound estrogen is water retention which can cause breasts to swell, especially during the later half of the menstrual cycle.
Vitex does not 'balance' hormones - basically it promotes the increase of progesterone and the decrease of prolactin. It does not lower progesterone levels that are too high and it does not directly stimulate estrogen production.
Progesterone - which is indeed stimulated by vitex - is also controlled through a complex series of checks and balances in the body. It will only increase to a preset 'maximum' level. Vitex only increases progesterone by stimulating the corpus luteum. Therefore a woman who does not ovulate or a woman who has no ovaries is not going to respond the same to vitex (it will reduce her prolactin level and stimulate dopamine production -so it could still be helpful to a variety of symptoms).
Does vitex have the ability to enhance NBE? Maybe. There was only one woman that spoke of vitex as having a significant effect on her breasts - 'Karen' if I remember correctly - and she never responded back to any question or posted again -if I remember correctly. Vitex could assist in NBE if your body needs to lower prolactin and increase progesterone. Progesterone helps to activate estrogen receptors and this in turn could lead to breast increases.
I have been taking vitex off and on since October 2006. I take it in order to enhance my progesterone production. I have never felt it had a strong influence on my breast size - but that is just my response.
Vitex can be helpful, but like any other herb its effect on each person will be a variable. Remember it can take up to 3 months before you will notice the effects of vitex.
Sorry for the lengthy post,
waxingmoon
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 6:26 PM
waxingmoon-
You said it takes up to 3months to see any of effects from Vitex but I'm on a month and 6 days or so and I already have a much better mood, better period, and my boobs are more fuller and shaplier. But that also could be from massaging. I still feel like it's the Vitex that's working though.
lilone
(Login Joeykk)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 22 2008, 9:25 PM
So it's a bad idea to go on Vitex if you're under 30?
I just took the hormone imbalance test and I basically got that I have estrogen dominance and excessive androgens.
I looked went through all of the forums and information here and came up with a plan that apparently I should do Vitex for the progestrone deficieny.
I am 20 and I know that I have a hormone imbalance for sure.
If I shouldn't take Vitex what is the alternative?
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 22 2008, 10:17 PM
maca is an alternative i think,,., it's supposed to balance out ur hormones, maybe one of the other members could verify this?
Glamma
(Login Glamma)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 12:41 AM
My doctor approved of vitex and I was 21 at the time (22 now) so I don't really get this age restriction with vitex.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 3:29 AM
If you go to the Information on Herbs link (main page) you will find the thread topic on vitex. Wahaika put in a lot of research into his post and put forth a valid concern about vitex. Indeed it does increase progesterone but it also decreases prolactin.
This is his summary:
"Summary: To reiterate, natural prolactin levels are necessary for breast development. Vitex inhibits (lowers/stops) prolactin production by raising dopamine levels. Young women below the age of 26, definitely below 18, should not use Vitex. If they do, they run a very real risk of negatively impacting their own breast development and any other development that relies on prolactin and/or dopamine to be at expected levels."
He has a very strong opinion about this. I think he may have a valid point. My personal opinion is that vitex is not detrimental in all cases for those under the age of 26. Certainly there are young women who have higher than normal prolactin levels. Also, we don't know just how much vitex affects these levels. Could it cause a change in prolactin or dopamine that could negatively affect someone's health or breast development? Maybe. There just is not enough research to know for sure. But ask yourself this - are you willing to take a risk?
My opinion is if you are using vitex for NBE reasons alone then you are not taking your health very seriously.
There is another alternative to increasing progesterone and that is the use of progesterone cream. But BEWARE. You can overdose on progesterone and it can lead to all sorts of negative symptoms. It is also a hormone and use has been linked to an increased risk of cancer. If you are in your early 20's and are considering using progesterone cream then do yourself a big favor and get tested before you use it. Your doctor can test you for deficiency and you can also purchase a saliva test online.
Be careful out there.
waxingmoon
lilone
(Login Joeykk)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 7:24 AM
ok, that makes sense.
I am just looking to help balance out my overall hormones and get myself healthy, so basically Maca (sp?) would be a better alternative possibly?
If my boobs grow, awesome, that's a major plus, but really, even if just my hormones get balanced i'd be happy with that at this point.
I am all about setting up safely and taking baby steps to keep myself safe and healthy.
Sharon
(no login)
useless for me?
March 23 2008, 8:13 PM
I've actually been considering Vitex. I know for me it's estrogen dominance-I had the hormone test and the RATIO was off. They suggested progesterone cream.
So that will put me back in balance but would adding Vitex help or be useless?
I know waxing moon had this approach maybe different but I was wondering if the progesterone cream balanced out my ratio would it be useless to try vitex?
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 9:02 PM
You don't need both and the progesterone cream would probably be more effective - makes sure it's USP progesterone.
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
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Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 9:50 PM
Ok so with that being said.. u should balance out your hormones before you start your program then?
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
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Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 9:51 PM
Definitely you need to try be at your optimum help for any NBE to work unfortunately...
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 10:05 PM
Yes you should balance your hormones first, MomXseven has PCO and endometriosis and has grown really well despite this. But I don't know if anyone else with hormonal problems has had much growth. If you can't fix your hormones try suction, I don't think it matters for that, I've grown quite a bit.
lilone
(Login Joeykk)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 24 2008, 3:52 AM
Do you have to continue using progesterone cream once you've balanced your hormones or does using it help to eventually get your hormones to balance out and stay that way?
From what I have read recently online, which makes me want to go to a Dr. even more is that, actually, if you fix your androgen levels first, that can automatically fix your progesterone. So you may not think it, but you may have an adrenal disorder which is causing you to have a progesterone deficiency and by fixing your adrenal disorder you can fix your progesterone as well.
And that saliva tests can work, but blood tests seem to work better.
Ugh, I hate needles, I really hope that I don't have to do a blood test.
March 20 2008 at 10:24 PM
double_ace (Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Sorry if this is old news or if it's been mentioned already but,
if some of you shrunk with Vitex it may have been because Vitex is a hormone balancer, which means if you were supposed to have higher estrogen levels and lower progesterone levels, and took vitex which decreased your estrogen levels then that would explain why your breasts shrunk.. same with people who have and need higher progesterone levels and after taking the vitex (which then lowered their progesterone levels) they've noticed a shrinkage then this pretty much explains it...
Now on the other hand you have people who grew with it and that may have been because they needed to balance out their hormones to grow which may have meant that they didn't really need more of ''this'' or ''that''.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? I may be worng but it just really makes sense when u look at it this way!
This message has been edited by double_ace on Mar 20, 2008 10:25 PM
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Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:39 PM
I have been trying to figure this out with Vitex for the longest time!
See, all the women in my family are very large (moms a DD, aunts a DD etc) and im now a very small b. Anyways, I was thinking that too, that maybe I did something to unbalance myself (i started to drugs at a young age) and taking vitex would balance me out and make me grow to what I should have. But im so confused when it comes to vitex I just dont know =(
Sorry for rambling-i just wanted to let you know I was wondering the same thing....
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:46 PM
Tianna did you say you did drugs at a young age?
I did too. If that's even what you mean :/
A lot too. My family sounds the same though. In the D or DD area. And I'm just at a b or small c...
Doing drugs [especially during puberty] will for sure stunt your growth. That may have happened to me. I also started smoking cigarettes when i was 12 years old and still do so that may be another reason.
But ever since I started taking Vitex I've only really seen positive. I wish I had a picture of me before taking it but I don't. I was definitely smaller. I would measure myself also but I lost my measuring tape. I need to get one of those. eek!
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:46 PM
what herbs have you tried already? I think a good idea would be to start off with one herb first and see how that goes for a week or two, then add another one, and check for any changes.. that way you know what wroks for you and what doesn't, on top of that it'll be easier to tell if you need more estrogen or progesterone or if u simply need to be balanced (in this case u could try vitex to balance it out.. or maca?)
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:48 PM
I suggest taking a hormone balance test to see where you are at. At the doctor or either online.
If not... then taking Vitex would be a better idea; for anyone. You need to balance out your hormones before you take herbs [for better results] MUCH better.
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 10:51 PM
Good idea jackie.. never thought of that, by the way Jackie, if u don't mind me asking how old you are?
I just read a post by waikiki and went and googled it myself.. Agnus castus (vitex) contains dopamine which prohibits prolactin (which is needed in breast growth) escpecially if you're still young,
so if you're under the age of 26 it's not recommended to take agnus castus (I read this somewhere on this board).
So I wonder how old the ones that shrunk with vitex were? Maybe they were young?
This message has been edited by double_ace on Mar 20, 2008 10:56 PM
Miles
(no login)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 20 2008, 11:24 PM
Hmmmm, that's interesting about not taking Vitex when you are young. I actually remember reading on here before that the people that actually grew with Progesterone cream were also older (30's and 40's). So, maybe vitex would be more beneficial to those 30 and up? It would be interesting to know how old people were who a) grew on vitex and b) shrunk on vitex. Obviously there are other hormonal factors in play here, but age might also be relevant for this herb.
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 12:07 AM
Oh really? I never heard of that. I heard it's ohkay for all ages. Even though it helps with Menopause.
I'm 17... 18 in 2months exactly.
Hmmm... good question, 'cause I wonder if the people who shrunk WERE young. Do you have any idea why that would be bad if you are younger, just because it produces prolactin?..
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 12:12 AM
Vitex contains dopamine
Girls going through puberty and possibly in their early twenties (26 like waikiki said) produce prolactin
Prolactin helps grow breasts and Dopamine reduces/stops prolactin, and the purpose of increasing prolactin levels is to grow breasts
that's why it's not recommended for younger ones.. i don't know how accurate this is but in theory it's not recommended
This message has been edited by double_ace on Mar 21, 2008 12:27 AM
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 12:32 AM
Ohhh.
Well I would be too bummed to stop NBE so I'll just go give this the rest of the 5 1/2 months and we'll see.
:\
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:04 AM
Hey Jackie, yes thats what I meant. I also started smoking cigarrettes when I was 12.
But yeah I have no doubt the drugs played a huge role. I was a 32C but I had a baby last year and breastfed for a couple months which is where I really lost my boobs =(
I did the hormone test suggested on this forum, but I got confused because I had so many sympotoms from every group so I have no idea what my results are =(
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:09 AM
Also, i havent tried any herbs yet really. After I finished breast feeding I was really upset about my boobs and I went to my local health food store where I found Lafemme Breast and Balance. I took those and grew really quickly. I gained about a cup in 3 weeks, it was amazing. This is what got me started on this. I stopped taking them and have since lost what I gained but im very optimistic because the resukts I got from that. I think a higher quality product and the knowledge I now have will help and I really feel ill get my boobs back =)
I definitely want to take maca as well. I just ordered WU today so we'll see how it goes, but like I said- I feel very confident =)
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:10 AM
So now Im kinda confused, should I get vitex first and try that before WU?
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:14 AM
What size are you at now?
I would either go to a doctor or choose what you most likely fit into [with the hormone test]... look at the symptoms you have in both and see which ones you suffer more with. I'm definitely estrogen dominant so Vitex is my ideal herb.
If you're confused I suggest you go to a doctor for a blood test.
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:18 AM
I would say im a 32B (but I want boobs like yours!!! LOL)
I may have to do that... Im going to go back and do the test again and see what I can come up with.
Thanks Jackie!
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:20 AM
Well, I don't see why you would go get WU when you don't even know for sure that you aren't estrogen dominant.
WU and along with other products like that on the market have a ton of estrogenic herbs in it. About a year ago I took Breast Success with the similiar herbs. I didn't know anything about taking hormone tests at the time and I took it for 3months and one of my boobs shrunk from it because I was taking estrogen producing herbs.
Do you know the ingredients that were in that 'breast and balance' product you took? It would help a lot to know. Because if it helped you even gain SOMEthing, and the herbs in it are estrogen producing then maybe WU would be ohkay for you.
Tianna_86
(Login Tianna_86)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:34 AM
The breast and balance has Saw palmetto, dong quai, damiana, fenugreek,blessed thisle, fennel, PM, wild yam, marshmallow, hops, violet and cumin (in a proprietary blend)
It also had vitamins E and B6, Folate, zinc, selenium, evening primrose oil, lecithin and maitake mushroom powder.
I got WU because it seemed to have a lot of the same ingredients.
This is my results from the hormone test: From this test : http://www.johnleemd.com/store/resource_hormonetest.html
1) 1
2) 4
3) 4
4) 6
5) 0
6) 2
lol i dunno if that makes any sense to you, but it confuses me cuz on one hand im estrogen deficient, but then I have the same number in estrogen dominant....i might just go get tested by my doc =(
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 2:19 AM
Well I don't know exactly what you checked but the ingredients in the 'breast and balance' are pretty much mostly all estrogen producing herbs so I think it's alright.
Personally I think buying BE pills that contain a bunch of herbs is a waste of money. They tell you to take a certain amount of pills a day but if you think about, it doesn't give you good amount of mg for all the herbs in it. It would take longer to take effect. I would just pick about 3 or 4 herbs that are the most effective for estrogen production and go to the GNC or a vitamin store and buy them and add your massages in with it everyday.
Usually you need to up the dosage on it with pills like that. So if WU tells you to take 1 pill in the morning and 1 pill at night OR 3 pills daily then you should either take 2 pills in the morning and 2 at night or 2 with every meal [6 a day]. Much more effective if you take 4-6 a day.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 12:06 PM
I believe the reason some women ''shrunk'' on vitex is because by balancing hormones vitex gets rid of water retention. Estrogen is not the sole key to breast growth. If it was, all women would grow on BCP (but only the minority do). I've also heard of NBE cases where women went and got high doses of estrogen on perscription, and they didn't grow at all (but rather ended up with scary lumps). Another thing is that while adding estrogen *might* in the right circumstances cause growth, that does not necessarily translate into removing estrogen causes breasts to shrink. So I'm more inclined to the hypothesis that it's getting rid of water retention.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 1:26 PM
There is a really great section in Eve's forum called Information on Herbs
http://www.network54.com/Forum/484503/
In it you can find information on most of the herbs used for NBE. This is from the thread about vitex:
Vitex works by stimulating the production of luteinizing hormone (LH) and suppressing the production of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH). This in turn causes the corpus luteum to secrete more progesterone. Progesterone suppresses the production of prolaction. Also, vitex has components that bind to the dopamine receptor sites of the pituitary, inhibiting prolactin secretion. http://www.kellymom.com/herbal/milksupply/herbal-rem_c.html
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Vitex does not contain dopamine, but it does bind to dopamine receptor sites and stimulates dopamine production. This reduces prolactin which in turn enhances the body's ability to produce more progesterone.
When progesterone levels increase they inhibit some of the symptoms that 'unbound estrogen' can cause (think of unbound estrogen as estrogen that does not have a progesterone partner). One of the symptoms of unbound estrogen is water retention which can cause breasts to swell, especially during the later half of the menstrual cycle.
Vitex does not 'balance' hormones - basically it promotes the increase of progesterone and the decrease of prolactin. It does not lower progesterone levels that are too high and it does not directly stimulate estrogen production.
Progesterone - which is indeed stimulated by vitex - is also controlled through a complex series of checks and balances in the body. It will only increase to a preset 'maximum' level. Vitex only increases progesterone by stimulating the corpus luteum. Therefore a woman who does not ovulate or a woman who has no ovaries is not going to respond the same to vitex (it will reduce her prolactin level and stimulate dopamine production -so it could still be helpful to a variety of symptoms).
Does vitex have the ability to enhance NBE? Maybe. There was only one woman that spoke of vitex as having a significant effect on her breasts - 'Karen' if I remember correctly - and she never responded back to any question or posted again -if I remember correctly. Vitex could assist in NBE if your body needs to lower prolactin and increase progesterone. Progesterone helps to activate estrogen receptors and this in turn could lead to breast increases.
I have been taking vitex off and on since October 2006. I take it in order to enhance my progesterone production. I have never felt it had a strong influence on my breast size - but that is just my response.
Vitex can be helpful, but like any other herb its effect on each person will be a variable. Remember it can take up to 3 months before you will notice the effects of vitex.
Sorry for the lengthy post,
waxingmoon
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 21 2008, 6:26 PM
waxingmoon-
You said it takes up to 3months to see any of effects from Vitex but I'm on a month and 6 days or so and I already have a much better mood, better period, and my boobs are more fuller and shaplier. But that also could be from massaging. I still feel like it's the Vitex that's working though.
lilone
(Login Joeykk)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 22 2008, 9:25 PM
So it's a bad idea to go on Vitex if you're under 30?
I just took the hormone imbalance test and I basically got that I have estrogen dominance and excessive androgens.
I looked went through all of the forums and information here and came up with a plan that apparently I should do Vitex for the progestrone deficieny.
I am 20 and I know that I have a hormone imbalance for sure.
If I shouldn't take Vitex what is the alternative?
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 22 2008, 10:17 PM
maca is an alternative i think,,., it's supposed to balance out ur hormones, maybe one of the other members could verify this?
Glamma
(Login Glamma)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 12:41 AM
My doctor approved of vitex and I was 21 at the time (22 now) so I don't really get this age restriction with vitex.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 3:29 AM
If you go to the Information on Herbs link (main page) you will find the thread topic on vitex. Wahaika put in a lot of research into his post and put forth a valid concern about vitex. Indeed it does increase progesterone but it also decreases prolactin.
This is his summary:
"Summary: To reiterate, natural prolactin levels are necessary for breast development. Vitex inhibits (lowers/stops) prolactin production by raising dopamine levels. Young women below the age of 26, definitely below 18, should not use Vitex. If they do, they run a very real risk of negatively impacting their own breast development and any other development that relies on prolactin and/or dopamine to be at expected levels."
He has a very strong opinion about this. I think he may have a valid point. My personal opinion is that vitex is not detrimental in all cases for those under the age of 26. Certainly there are young women who have higher than normal prolactin levels. Also, we don't know just how much vitex affects these levels. Could it cause a change in prolactin or dopamine that could negatively affect someone's health or breast development? Maybe. There just is not enough research to know for sure. But ask yourself this - are you willing to take a risk?
My opinion is if you are using vitex for NBE reasons alone then you are not taking your health very seriously.
There is another alternative to increasing progesterone and that is the use of progesterone cream. But BEWARE. You can overdose on progesterone and it can lead to all sorts of negative symptoms. It is also a hormone and use has been linked to an increased risk of cancer. If you are in your early 20's and are considering using progesterone cream then do yourself a big favor and get tested before you use it. Your doctor can test you for deficiency and you can also purchase a saliva test online.
Be careful out there.
waxingmoon
lilone
(Login Joeykk)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 7:24 AM
ok, that makes sense.
I am just looking to help balance out my overall hormones and get myself healthy, so basically Maca (sp?) would be a better alternative possibly?
If my boobs grow, awesome, that's a major plus, but really, even if just my hormones get balanced i'd be happy with that at this point.
I am all about setting up safely and taking baby steps to keep myself safe and healthy.
Sharon
(no login)
useless for me?
March 23 2008, 8:13 PM
I've actually been considering Vitex. I know for me it's estrogen dominance-I had the hormone test and the RATIO was off. They suggested progesterone cream.
So that will put me back in balance but would adding Vitex help or be useless?
I know waxing moon had this approach maybe different but I was wondering if the progesterone cream balanced out my ratio would it be useless to try vitex?
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 9:02 PM
You don't need both and the progesterone cream would probably be more effective - makes sure it's USP progesterone.
double_ace
(Login double_ace)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 9:50 PM
Ok so with that being said.. u should balance out your hormones before you start your program then?
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 9:51 PM
Definitely you need to try be at your optimum help for any NBE to work unfortunately...
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 23 2008, 10:05 PM
Yes you should balance your hormones first, MomXseven has PCO and endometriosis and has grown really well despite this. But I don't know if anyone else with hormonal problems has had much growth. If you can't fix your hormones try suction, I don't think it matters for that, I've grown quite a bit.
lilone
(Login Joeykk)
Re: Why some shrunk with Vitex
March 24 2008, 3:52 AM
Do you have to continue using progesterone cream once you've balanced your hormones or does using it help to eventually get your hormones to balance out and stay that way?
From what I have read recently online, which makes me want to go to a Dr. even more is that, actually, if you fix your androgen levels first, that can automatically fix your progesterone. So you may not think it, but you may have an adrenal disorder which is causing you to have a progesterone deficiency and by fixing your adrenal disorder you can fix your progesterone as well.
And that saliva tests can work, but blood tests seem to work better.
Ugh, I hate needles, I really hope that I don't have to do a blood test.