06-02-2016, 16:42
Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 10 2008 at 11:49 AM Roseability86 (Login roseability86)
Reason I ask is, I just found out its likely I'm deficient in both estrogen and progsterone - pretty much everything I'm taking is estrogenic - and BCP is free in UK.
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 10 2008, 11:58 AM
"You are about to find out if you have a Progesterone Deficiency
Here are your results...
Total value: 54
And here's what this means...
if your "score" is 10 or more there is a strong probability that you have a progesterone deficiency"
*giggles*
Oooops... I feel I should have corrected this sooner.
I did a little bit of reading and apparently orally taken progesterone is less helpful than the cream because the majority gets absrobed by the liver? Anyone shed any light?
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 10 2008, 12:11 PM
Just also read that pure maca root (of which I have a bag) can treat progesterone deficiency?
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 10 2008, 2:31 PM
Hi Roseability,
Well, I probably have more experience with progesterone cream than anyone on the forum.
I have used the progesterone cream off and on since 2006. I have used Maca. I have used Vitex. Here is my take on each.
About maca... although it is supposedly an adaptogen, meaning it is a precursor for many different hormones, that statement is merely anecdotal. There is no scientific basis for it. Its effect on me is not like progesterone and I feel it has more potential as an estrogen supporter than anything else.
About vitex... there is a lot of scientific study of vitex. It does increase progesterone and reduces prolactin at the same time. It increases progesterone by stimulating production in the corpus luteum after ovulation. If a woman does not have ovaries or does not ovulate its method of action is negated. I found that it was somewhat helpful, but it took a long time to achieve any effect (at least 3 months of constant use). It also was not strong enough to correct my estrogen dominance/progesterone deficiency by itself.
About progesterone... Natural progesterone cream is completely different from the progesterone used in BCP (unless you are getting bio-identical hormones from a compounding pharmacy). BCP has what is called progestins which bind to the progesterone molecule. The progestin molecule looks different than the progesterone molecule - more like testosterone than anything else. When a molecule looks that different from what it is supposed to mimic, it cannot have the same effect. Think of a key fitting a lock. It has to have the bumps in the right places or it cannot turn the tumblers.
Now with natural progesterone cream, even though it has been manufactured in the lab, the molecule looks just like our own progesterone and it has all the beneficial effects of the real progesterone molecule. There are bio-identical natural progesterone pills and you are absolutely correct that the majority of that pill will end up filtered out by your liver. The best way to effect your progesterone level is through the use of the natural progesterone cream.
You said you had done some reading and if you haven't already, check out the book 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause' by Dr. John Lee. Of all of his books, I found this one to be the most informative about the use of progesterone cream to enhance natural progesterone. By following the guide the book outlined I have successfully resolved most of my symptoms and I feel better than I ever have in my life (not an exaggeration).
So - in a long rambling way I am telling you that the BCP idea is not the way to go unless it is bio-identical hormones and even then the impact on your liver would be unhealthy. Better the cream in my opinion.
Hope this has helped some,
waxingmoon
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 10 2008, 2:46 PM
Thanks Waxingmoon. I love your thorough "rambling" posts. I will investigate the cream :-)
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 11 2008, 11:23 AM
I have another question now, hehe.
If you get the symptoms for both estrogen deficiency and progesterone deficiency, I know it probably means that I'm estrogen dominant (still have more of that than progesterone) so I need to do something about that e.g. cream or vitex but do you also need to carry on increasing estrogen as well? I think I am growing - whether its herbs or suction or both, so I don't really want to lay off my current herbs but I don't want to buy progesterone cream if taking estrogenic herbs makes it ineffective? I would try a half and half programme based around my cycle but my cycles are so irregular I never actually know where I am.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 11 2008, 1:42 PM
Hi again,
One of the things that progesterone does is activate estrogen receptors. A person who is testing both low estrogen and low progesterone probably really needs to supplement progesterone in order to enhance their reception to estrogen.
You speak of irregular cycles and that is another thing that progesterone can have a positive effect on.
You basically have 3 ways to improve your progesterone/estrogen balance.
1. reduce estrogens (according to your test this is not desirable)
2. increase progesterone through use of vitex (will take about 3 months to have any effect)
3. use progesterone cream (immediate effect but you have to use it precisely at the right times and the right amount)
Since the initial response to increasing progesterone almost always involves a surge in estrogen due to its effect on the estrogen receptors, you really would be treating both of your issues at the same time.
If you want to use estrogenic herbs, then I would limit them to the first part of your cycle. Certainly you have some sort of average to your cycle length. Just divide it in half and use the estrogenic herbs the first half of your cycle length - let's just arbitrarily say 10 - 14 days.
If you choose to use vitex then start and take it daily for at least 3 months. Take it with the estrogenic herbs. There really is no scientific reason to avoid estrogens when using vitex. There is nothing about its method of action that would be reduced when other herbs are used unless those other herbs promote the building of prolactin (that would be the galactogogues - which fenugreek is one of them). You could use fennel or maca with vitex.
If you choose progesterone then research it thoroughly first. You take it during the last half of your cycle. You use a specific dose and you apply it to thin skinned areas and rotate where you place it. The book I mentioned talks all about this. With this method you could use any estrogenic herb in the first half of your cycle, even the galactogogues.
waxingmoon
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 11 2008, 1:53 PM
Thanks again, waxingmoon :-)
I ordered some vitex because I don't really have a regular enough cycle to use the cream and vitex worked out cheaper too. I'm not sure what dosage the forum would recommend but these are 300x 800mg, they state that you should take two a day which I work out to be 5 months worth. Not bad for ten pounds.
So if I take vitex should I lay off wonderup? It contains fenugreek! :-( On the plus side, I did take both fenugreek and fennel capsules before starting wonderup and felt I had more sensations with fennel.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 11 2008, 2:06 PM
Yeah, just save the Wonderup for later. There would be a direct interference between it and the vitex due to the fenugreek. Fennel should be fine and since it is a relatively low dose estrogenic herb it should not be a problem with the estrogen dominance if you take it the first part of your cycle.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
June 10 2008 at 11:49 AM Roseability86 (Login roseability86)
Reason I ask is, I just found out its likely I'm deficient in both estrogen and progsterone - pretty much everything I'm taking is estrogenic - and BCP is free in UK.
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 10 2008, 11:58 AM
"You are about to find out if you have a Progesterone Deficiency
Here are your results...
Total value: 54
And here's what this means...
if your "score" is 10 or more there is a strong probability that you have a progesterone deficiency"
*giggles*
Oooops... I feel I should have corrected this sooner.
I did a little bit of reading and apparently orally taken progesterone is less helpful than the cream because the majority gets absrobed by the liver? Anyone shed any light?
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 10 2008, 12:11 PM
Just also read that pure maca root (of which I have a bag) can treat progesterone deficiency?
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 10 2008, 2:31 PM
Hi Roseability,
Well, I probably have more experience with progesterone cream than anyone on the forum.
I have used the progesterone cream off and on since 2006. I have used Maca. I have used Vitex. Here is my take on each.
About maca... although it is supposedly an adaptogen, meaning it is a precursor for many different hormones, that statement is merely anecdotal. There is no scientific basis for it. Its effect on me is not like progesterone and I feel it has more potential as an estrogen supporter than anything else.
About vitex... there is a lot of scientific study of vitex. It does increase progesterone and reduces prolactin at the same time. It increases progesterone by stimulating production in the corpus luteum after ovulation. If a woman does not have ovaries or does not ovulate its method of action is negated. I found that it was somewhat helpful, but it took a long time to achieve any effect (at least 3 months of constant use). It also was not strong enough to correct my estrogen dominance/progesterone deficiency by itself.
About progesterone... Natural progesterone cream is completely different from the progesterone used in BCP (unless you are getting bio-identical hormones from a compounding pharmacy). BCP has what is called progestins which bind to the progesterone molecule. The progestin molecule looks different than the progesterone molecule - more like testosterone than anything else. When a molecule looks that different from what it is supposed to mimic, it cannot have the same effect. Think of a key fitting a lock. It has to have the bumps in the right places or it cannot turn the tumblers.
Now with natural progesterone cream, even though it has been manufactured in the lab, the molecule looks just like our own progesterone and it has all the beneficial effects of the real progesterone molecule. There are bio-identical natural progesterone pills and you are absolutely correct that the majority of that pill will end up filtered out by your liver. The best way to effect your progesterone level is through the use of the natural progesterone cream.
You said you had done some reading and if you haven't already, check out the book 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause' by Dr. John Lee. Of all of his books, I found this one to be the most informative about the use of progesterone cream to enhance natural progesterone. By following the guide the book outlined I have successfully resolved most of my symptoms and I feel better than I ever have in my life (not an exaggeration).
So - in a long rambling way I am telling you that the BCP idea is not the way to go unless it is bio-identical hormones and even then the impact on your liver would be unhealthy. Better the cream in my opinion.
Hope this has helped some,
waxingmoon
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 10 2008, 2:46 PM
Thanks Waxingmoon. I love your thorough "rambling" posts. I will investigate the cream :-)
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 11 2008, 11:23 AM
I have another question now, hehe.
If you get the symptoms for both estrogen deficiency and progesterone deficiency, I know it probably means that I'm estrogen dominant (still have more of that than progesterone) so I need to do something about that e.g. cream or vitex but do you also need to carry on increasing estrogen as well? I think I am growing - whether its herbs or suction or both, so I don't really want to lay off my current herbs but I don't want to buy progesterone cream if taking estrogenic herbs makes it ineffective? I would try a half and half programme based around my cycle but my cycles are so irregular I never actually know where I am.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 11 2008, 1:42 PM
Hi again,
One of the things that progesterone does is activate estrogen receptors. A person who is testing both low estrogen and low progesterone probably really needs to supplement progesterone in order to enhance their reception to estrogen.
You speak of irregular cycles and that is another thing that progesterone can have a positive effect on.
You basically have 3 ways to improve your progesterone/estrogen balance.
1. reduce estrogens (according to your test this is not desirable)
2. increase progesterone through use of vitex (will take about 3 months to have any effect)
3. use progesterone cream (immediate effect but you have to use it precisely at the right times and the right amount)
Since the initial response to increasing progesterone almost always involves a surge in estrogen due to its effect on the estrogen receptors, you really would be treating both of your issues at the same time.
If you want to use estrogenic herbs, then I would limit them to the first part of your cycle. Certainly you have some sort of average to your cycle length. Just divide it in half and use the estrogenic herbs the first half of your cycle length - let's just arbitrarily say 10 - 14 days.
If you choose to use vitex then start and take it daily for at least 3 months. Take it with the estrogenic herbs. There really is no scientific reason to avoid estrogens when using vitex. There is nothing about its method of action that would be reduced when other herbs are used unless those other herbs promote the building of prolactin (that would be the galactogogues - which fenugreek is one of them). You could use fennel or maca with vitex.
If you choose progesterone then research it thoroughly first. You take it during the last half of your cycle. You use a specific dose and you apply it to thin skinned areas and rotate where you place it. The book I mentioned talks all about this. With this method you could use any estrogenic herb in the first half of your cycle, even the galactogogues.
waxingmoon
Roseability86
(Login roseability86)
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 11 2008, 1:53 PM
Thanks again, waxingmoon :-)
I ordered some vitex because I don't really have a regular enough cycle to use the cream and vitex worked out cheaper too. I'm not sure what dosage the forum would recommend but these are 300x 800mg, they state that you should take two a day which I work out to be 5 months worth. Not bad for ten pounds.
So if I take vitex should I lay off wonderup? It contains fenugreek! :-( On the plus side, I did take both fenugreek and fennel capsules before starting wonderup and felt I had more sensations with fennel.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Can you use Progesterone only BCP to increase progesterone?
June 11 2008, 2:06 PM
Yeah, just save the Wonderup for later. There would be a direct interference between it and the vitex due to the fenugreek. Fennel should be fine and since it is a relatively low dose estrogenic herb it should not be a problem with the estrogen dominance if you take it the first part of your cycle.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon