29-02-2016, 23:33
Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 17 2008 at 7:35 PM Louise (Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
I keep being told that you shouldn't use progesterone cream just for boob growth? Why not? What does it actually do to you? If it's not going to make me drop dead or go bald I might be willing to chance it!
Sunflower
(Login ssunflower)
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 17 2008, 7:44 PM
I can't give you the exact answer but Dr. Lee goes into the negative of too much progestorone in his book. I read it awhile ago.
Linn
(Login linn7880)
progesterone cream
October 17 2008, 8:27 PM
Hi Louise,
It is right that it is written in dr. lees book. I have thought of this myself.Dr. lee says that women who use to much progesterone may find their breasts considerably enlarged. He dont recommend it because the effect will wear off when progesterone levels return to normal, possibly resulting in sagging breasts.(An effect familiar to women who have nursed their babies)
I do'nt understand this argument if you are small you will probably not sag and maybe it is better to be bigger and sag than being small..?
So why does he not reccomend it I write it just as he has written it..
1) Excess progesterone exhausts or otherwise reduces receptor sensitivity so that its benefits are often lost.
2)Too much progesterone can make an hormonal imbalance
3) if progesterone levels are higher than normal for more than six months, people become mentally lethargic and even depressed. this happens most often with oral, micronized progesterone and high-dose creams.Fourtunataly, the effects of using too high a dose of progesterone over time is reverisble by returning to normal levels of progesterone.
He says that people who use too much progesterone experience significant abdominal bloating and discomfort, which he belives is due to a suppressive effect on the digestive system. He has also seen evidence that excessive progesterone may drive cortisol levels too high, resulting in cortisol excess symptoms such as increased appetite and weight gain, particulary around abdomen.
As far as i can see the danger must be if the cortisol levels goes to high and you get a heart attack, but think that you must take very much to do such harm..
Maybe anybody else such as waxingmoon knows more about the progesterone cream..
Hope this helped.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 18 2008, 4:28 AM
Hi Louise, (I wanted to try and answer your question, but I also want you to know I am talking to the 'audience' at large and not just to you - I know you have a science background, so I know you know some of these things already)
Here is a link to a website that is very anti-progesterone:
http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/progesteronecancer.html#progesterone_myth
Its stance is perhaps too far into the 'progesterone use will kill you' kind of perspective, but it does bring up some valid points.
Progesterone is a hormone and as such it should be used as sparingly as possible and only to support a true deficiency. There are reports of progesterone causing the proliferation and growth of existing cancers. Supplementing a single hormone when the body system is set up to work with a complex mixture of hormones is a risky thing. If you increase any hormone above what is natural to the body there is a great risk of harm. For example, originally doctors just prescribed estrogen only for birth control or hormone replacement - then they noticed an unmistakable link to uterine cancer. That is why no woman will be given estrogen only supplements unless she has undergone a hysterectomy.
Even if we believe the risk of cancer from using progesterone is not very great there are also other issues of progesterone overdose. Linn stated these as she quoted Dr Lee. Basically the very benefits derived from the proper use of progesterone are reversed with the overdose of progesterone.
As far as NBE is concerned - there is no direct link to progesterone cream causing breast enlargement in every women or even most women. It happens in some, but several people have reported in this forum that it has not happened for them. I was one of the few that reported growth from its use, but lets get something straight here. I had practically no breast tissue at all. I increased by an inch in size, but I was still not even an A cup - more like aaa or smaller AFTER this growth. This kind of reaction would probably only be likely in someone who was seriously deficient in progesterone as I once was.
Slathering on large amounts of progesterone cream is not the road to breast enlargement - it is a direct highway to serious hormonal imbalance and possibly to increased risk of cancer.
Check out that link to the website. When I read it I had to seriously consider my use of progesterone cream and it is one of the reasons I use it as sparingly as I can and only when my symptoms justify it. Just for the record, I am not currently using it and have not for over 2 cycles. I will not use it again unless my estrogen dominance symptoms return.
Remember - there is nothing more valuable than your health. No one is going to be raving about your huge breasts if they are looking at you in a casket. Be very careful.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Linn
(Login linn7880)
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 18 2008, 9:51 AM
Hi waxingmoon,
I read a bit on the page you recommended. It was scary..I would like to know the truth about estrogen/progesterone and cancer.I bought some cream from a site of dr.lee and it was called progesterAll it contains 2 ounces/ 56 gram.
I have just used it once, I found out it was very difficult for me since I never know when my period will come. So I just put some cream on when I got the cream..I think I rather will use vitex and later phytoestrogens..Do you know if the cream i bought is a good one?
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 18 2008, 7:58 PM
Hi Waxingmoon,
Was there anything in there specifically? I read the first few pages but it's very disjointed and I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer the tablets to the cream. They mention something about contraceptive pills and how this shows all the negative effects of taking progesterone but the pill makes me feel so much better and I think I did grow with it when I was young. I'm not intending to either take this for life, take a huge overdose or take it for the full month.
I've often wondered what would happen if I upped my dose of my contraceptive pills - any ideas?
I can't believe the body uses cholesterol to make progesterone though - I should be making the cream I eat so much fat! Is there anything I could take that would encourage it to use more cholesterol in this way?
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 19 2008, 4:08 PM
Hi Louise,
Yeah that article is a disjointed mess, obviously slapped together by somebody on a mission to prove their point. Sort of a "I hate progesterone so I will cobble together every article I can find about negative effects of progesterone".
Down near the end of it all (and yeah I did read it all... gasp) there are some articles that site scientific studies which allowed me to see through all the progesterone hate. These are the conclusions I reached.
1. Progesterone is a hormone and as such should be treated with care.
2. Some cancers are progesterone sensitive and also since progesterone use does increase estrogen receptor activity, those cancers which are estrogen sensitive could also be promoted.
3. No article sited an actual case of cancer being caused by progesterone, but rather existing cancers being promoted by progesterone.
4. Any hormone taken above what is natural for the body becomes a liability.
5. Progesterone levels rise during pregnancy much higher than normal for 9 months duration and there has never been a link between multiple pregnancies and higher risks of cancer.
6. There is a big difference between artificial progesterone (progestins) and natural progesterone (which includes the progesterone manufactured from wild yam in the lab). The biggest difference being the shape of the molecule.
Here is something else regarding the pill form versus the cream. You will get only 30% of what you take in internally via the pill. 70% of oral progesterone is filtered out by the liver. This is quite a toxic load for the liver to deal with and makes the pill form that much more undesirable.
Taking your BCP at higher levels does not sound like a good idea to me. BCP has long been associated with higher risk of stroke. Taking more would increase your risk.
Yeah, it is too bad that we can't just push a button somewhere on ourselves and select what we want the body to do with things like cholesterol... lol. But here is something that makes logical sense to me. The HDL (good) cholesterol takes cholesterol from the blood stream to the liver where it is made into various things. Doing things that promote the rise of HDL and the lowering of LDL cholesterol should enhance hormone building. Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids raise HDL and lower LDL. So increasing mono-unsaturated and polyunsaturated fats in our diet through use of olive oil, canola oil, nuts, seeds and fatty cold water fish as well as flax seed oil could have a very desirable effect. I believe this is why so many women report good NBE effect from EPO, borage and flax seed oils. With hormone production in mind it would also be good to avoid trans fats which cause the lowering of HDL and the rise of LDL (plus heart disease and cancer). So look on labels and drop the trans fat out of your life.
Anyway, I hope this is food for though.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 19 2008, 8:00 PM
No-one in my family has ever had a stroke, my nan's sister died of a heart attack at 70 and my grandad died at 79 of alzheimers, everyone else in my family has made it to at least their mid-80s. My nan's the only person in my family to have had cancer (cervical), she got diagnosed at 84 and got the all-clear at 89. I'm not worried about vascular risks, and I agree with what you say about high levels of progesterone during pregnancy - I don't intend to do any of this long term, it's too much effort! There's something called 'Climen' that's pretty low dose you can buy on the internet or otherwise I might discuss it with my gynae but just haven't got the guts to ask her about boobs. The reason I like the idea of cyproterone is that I've taken it before - did give me a few funny migraines and possibly one attack of double vision but I know I've got an eye muscle imbalance so maybe I was just tired.
October 17 2008 at 7:35 PM Louise (Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
I keep being told that you shouldn't use progesterone cream just for boob growth? Why not? What does it actually do to you? If it's not going to make me drop dead or go bald I might be willing to chance it!
Sunflower
(Login ssunflower)
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 17 2008, 7:44 PM
I can't give you the exact answer but Dr. Lee goes into the negative of too much progestorone in his book. I read it awhile ago.
Linn
(Login linn7880)
progesterone cream
October 17 2008, 8:27 PM
Hi Louise,
It is right that it is written in dr. lees book. I have thought of this myself.Dr. lee says that women who use to much progesterone may find their breasts considerably enlarged. He dont recommend it because the effect will wear off when progesterone levels return to normal, possibly resulting in sagging breasts.(An effect familiar to women who have nursed their babies)
I do'nt understand this argument if you are small you will probably not sag and maybe it is better to be bigger and sag than being small..?
So why does he not reccomend it I write it just as he has written it..
1) Excess progesterone exhausts or otherwise reduces receptor sensitivity so that its benefits are often lost.
2)Too much progesterone can make an hormonal imbalance
3) if progesterone levels are higher than normal for more than six months, people become mentally lethargic and even depressed. this happens most often with oral, micronized progesterone and high-dose creams.Fourtunataly, the effects of using too high a dose of progesterone over time is reverisble by returning to normal levels of progesterone.
He says that people who use too much progesterone experience significant abdominal bloating and discomfort, which he belives is due to a suppressive effect on the digestive system. He has also seen evidence that excessive progesterone may drive cortisol levels too high, resulting in cortisol excess symptoms such as increased appetite and weight gain, particulary around abdomen.
As far as i can see the danger must be if the cortisol levels goes to high and you get a heart attack, but think that you must take very much to do such harm..
Maybe anybody else such as waxingmoon knows more about the progesterone cream..
Hope this helped.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 18 2008, 4:28 AM
Hi Louise, (I wanted to try and answer your question, but I also want you to know I am talking to the 'audience' at large and not just to you - I know you have a science background, so I know you know some of these things already)
Here is a link to a website that is very anti-progesterone:
http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/progesteronecancer.html#progesterone_myth
Its stance is perhaps too far into the 'progesterone use will kill you' kind of perspective, but it does bring up some valid points.
Progesterone is a hormone and as such it should be used as sparingly as possible and only to support a true deficiency. There are reports of progesterone causing the proliferation and growth of existing cancers. Supplementing a single hormone when the body system is set up to work with a complex mixture of hormones is a risky thing. If you increase any hormone above what is natural to the body there is a great risk of harm. For example, originally doctors just prescribed estrogen only for birth control or hormone replacement - then they noticed an unmistakable link to uterine cancer. That is why no woman will be given estrogen only supplements unless she has undergone a hysterectomy.
Even if we believe the risk of cancer from using progesterone is not very great there are also other issues of progesterone overdose. Linn stated these as she quoted Dr Lee. Basically the very benefits derived from the proper use of progesterone are reversed with the overdose of progesterone.
As far as NBE is concerned - there is no direct link to progesterone cream causing breast enlargement in every women or even most women. It happens in some, but several people have reported in this forum that it has not happened for them. I was one of the few that reported growth from its use, but lets get something straight here. I had practically no breast tissue at all. I increased by an inch in size, but I was still not even an A cup - more like aaa or smaller AFTER this growth. This kind of reaction would probably only be likely in someone who was seriously deficient in progesterone as I once was.
Slathering on large amounts of progesterone cream is not the road to breast enlargement - it is a direct highway to serious hormonal imbalance and possibly to increased risk of cancer.
Check out that link to the website. When I read it I had to seriously consider my use of progesterone cream and it is one of the reasons I use it as sparingly as I can and only when my symptoms justify it. Just for the record, I am not currently using it and have not for over 2 cycles. I will not use it again unless my estrogen dominance symptoms return.
Remember - there is nothing more valuable than your health. No one is going to be raving about your huge breasts if they are looking at you in a casket. Be very careful.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Linn
(Login linn7880)
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 18 2008, 9:51 AM
Hi waxingmoon,
I read a bit on the page you recommended. It was scary..I would like to know the truth about estrogen/progesterone and cancer.I bought some cream from a site of dr.lee and it was called progesterAll it contains 2 ounces/ 56 gram.
I have just used it once, I found out it was very difficult for me since I never know when my period will come. So I just put some cream on when I got the cream..I think I rather will use vitex and later phytoestrogens..Do you know if the cream i bought is a good one?
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 18 2008, 7:58 PM
Hi Waxingmoon,
Was there anything in there specifically? I read the first few pages but it's very disjointed and I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer the tablets to the cream. They mention something about contraceptive pills and how this shows all the negative effects of taking progesterone but the pill makes me feel so much better and I think I did grow with it when I was young. I'm not intending to either take this for life, take a huge overdose or take it for the full month.
I've often wondered what would happen if I upped my dose of my contraceptive pills - any ideas?
I can't believe the body uses cholesterol to make progesterone though - I should be making the cream I eat so much fat! Is there anything I could take that would encourage it to use more cholesterol in this way?
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 19 2008, 4:08 PM
Hi Louise,
Yeah that article is a disjointed mess, obviously slapped together by somebody on a mission to prove their point. Sort of a "I hate progesterone so I will cobble together every article I can find about negative effects of progesterone".
Down near the end of it all (and yeah I did read it all... gasp) there are some articles that site scientific studies which allowed me to see through all the progesterone hate. These are the conclusions I reached.
1. Progesterone is a hormone and as such should be treated with care.
2. Some cancers are progesterone sensitive and also since progesterone use does increase estrogen receptor activity, those cancers which are estrogen sensitive could also be promoted.
3. No article sited an actual case of cancer being caused by progesterone, but rather existing cancers being promoted by progesterone.
4. Any hormone taken above what is natural for the body becomes a liability.
5. Progesterone levels rise during pregnancy much higher than normal for 9 months duration and there has never been a link between multiple pregnancies and higher risks of cancer.
6. There is a big difference between artificial progesterone (progestins) and natural progesterone (which includes the progesterone manufactured from wild yam in the lab). The biggest difference being the shape of the molecule.
Here is something else regarding the pill form versus the cream. You will get only 30% of what you take in internally via the pill. 70% of oral progesterone is filtered out by the liver. This is quite a toxic load for the liver to deal with and makes the pill form that much more undesirable.
Taking your BCP at higher levels does not sound like a good idea to me. BCP has long been associated with higher risk of stroke. Taking more would increase your risk.
Yeah, it is too bad that we can't just push a button somewhere on ourselves and select what we want the body to do with things like cholesterol... lol. But here is something that makes logical sense to me. The HDL (good) cholesterol takes cholesterol from the blood stream to the liver where it is made into various things. Doing things that promote the rise of HDL and the lowering of LDL cholesterol should enhance hormone building. Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids raise HDL and lower LDL. So increasing mono-unsaturated and polyunsaturated fats in our diet through use of olive oil, canola oil, nuts, seeds and fatty cold water fish as well as flax seed oil could have a very desirable effect. I believe this is why so many women report good NBE effect from EPO, borage and flax seed oils. With hormone production in mind it would also be good to avoid trans fats which cause the lowering of HDL and the rise of LDL (plus heart disease and cancer). So look on labels and drop the trans fat out of your life.
Anyway, I hope this is food for though.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone Cream - Negatives?
October 19 2008, 8:00 PM
No-one in my family has ever had a stroke, my nan's sister died of a heart attack at 70 and my grandad died at 79 of alzheimers, everyone else in my family has made it to at least their mid-80s. My nan's the only person in my family to have had cancer (cervical), she got diagnosed at 84 and got the all-clear at 89. I'm not worried about vascular risks, and I agree with what you say about high levels of progesterone during pregnancy - I don't intend to do any of this long term, it's too much effort! There's something called 'Climen' that's pretty low dose you can buy on the internet or otherwise I might discuss it with my gynae but just haven't got the guts to ask her about boobs. The reason I like the idea of cyproterone is that I've taken it before - did give me a few funny migraines and possibly one attack of double vision but I know I've got an eye muscle imbalance so maybe I was just tired.