[surferjoe2007]

Saponins” is kind of like “essential oils” in that I hope you mean fenugreek or shatavari or else it could be something else entirely.  1200 mg is a safe low amount of either with 50% saponins.  You can go up to 2400 mg if there aren’t any side effects.  Maybe a little further such as 3,000-3,600 mg again if there aren’t side effects.  Though it might not do much more.  If you do good side effects then a few months on the foods may help before increasing again.  Same for other herbs.  If you have hypoglycemia then don’t use any amount of fenugreek or shatavari

Sorry, this advice is reckless. Fenugreek lowers insulin...fast. Suggesting such amounts to women can bottom out a female's blood sugar level in no time flat. You've suggested this course before and a good friend of mine followed your advice and passed out and wound up in the hospital requiring stitches...good thing she wasn't driving, do you remember this joe? And as I cautioned back then about going over the recommended amounts you're still suggesting these crazy amounts.

"A cautionary tale for sure, herbs do carry risks. As with anything, always check with your primary care physician. And a general rule: do not exceed the recommended dosage. The higher (or more) the better theory for supplements is completely false."
https://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=23119
 (you're response is on page 2, joe) 

Fenugreek increases estradiol
https://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=26172

Per the study:

The investigational product contained 300 mg of libifem, a standardized extract of T.foenum-graecum (fenugreek) seed extract [dry concentrate 33:1] equivalent to 9.9 g dry herb, standardized to a minimum 50% saponin glycosides.

foenum-graecum seed extract was also associated with a significant increase in E2 levels.(Simon, 2011) 

Study participants underwent follicular blood tests on day 7-9, (though not all did).....thus the data on increased estradiol. It makes sense (to me) taking FG in follicular.....vitex in luteal would work too. And in my opinion Vitex is a generic version of Prozac.....which will increase PRL (and it does).  

Fenugreek lowers progesterone and raises estradiol followed by prolactin.

Hey Lotus
I thought since FG raises estradiol, wouldn't that be taken when E rises? But you're also saying it raises P-- so I am a bit confused lol (sorry) this whole time I thought FG worked on E and should be taken during follicular?

Do you think FG extract should be cycled the same way because it would have the same effect? I have been considering Fenu extract, flaxseed and hops oils (all topical)

Hey there missB,

The science from the study indicates estradiol (in the second month) was raised by 50%(my calculations) @ 600 mg a day for two menstrual cycles. Btw, FG needs to be at least 50% steroidal saponins. (NOTE-that's not a misprint, only 600 mg was used).

 steroidal saponins reported to exhibit estrogenic effects including binding to E2 receptors and inducing the expression of E2 responsive genes (Sreejaet al., 2010). 

It raises prolactin yes, though not as significant as estradiol. From the study, FG lowers cholesterol, SHBG, progesterone and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). It also raises LH (luteinizing hormone @ 41%)......thus the need for additional 5 AR inhibitors.

To me, FG needs to be in the first half and Vitex in the second half. I'll have to adjust the supplement info about FG lowering progesterone. Alternatively, I'd take FG with a conversion supplement (pro-aromatase) considering what it does to FSH, which synthesizes aromatase. I'm excited about a new aromatase approach using EPO and peanut oil, though I'm looking for an alternative for those with peanut allergies. What the 2 combination does is its binding ability in EGF (epidermal growth factor). I'll post more info on the X thread. 

Topical FG is OK (though much DHT is in the skin). Use a good skin penetrator that inhibits 5 Alpha Reductase (inhibits DHT) too.....EPO (evening primrose oil) could work. The study size was 80 premenopausal women.  

Palmdef, more than likely your issue is hidden in DHEA (though not listed, I'm confident having read/analyzed many lab results to know (or recognize) the pattern based on what youve already shared. Your results are similar to women with pcos or hirsute woman…not identical, but similar. Low Estradiol, higher androgens, chin hair etc, though much is driven by your weights lifting, so your body is sensing the increase in T most likely driven by an increase in IGF-1. Inhibiting DHEA, lowering SHBG and raising estradiol is your main goal. Fenugreek helps lower SHBG and raises Estradiol, per the study only 600 mg fenugreek was used. In addition you can also add a pro-aromatase supplement to help synthesize fenugreek during follicular phase, e.g. forskolin or ginseng. For luteal I'd recommend still using 600mg of fenugreek alongside micronized progesterone cream. 

If you require even stronger anti-androgens I'll be sharing new information in my thread later today. Apologies for the intrusion in your thread, I think you deserve the correct information. I'm adding this study because you'll see DHEA-S and DHEA are the major androgens in females followed by androstenedione (A), testosterone (T), and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in descending order of serum concentration.

Androgen production in women 
Henry G Burger. Fertil Steril. 2002 Apr. 
Abstract 

Objective: To describe the sources, production rates, circulating concentrations, and regulatory mechanisms of the major androgen precursors and androgens in women. 

Design: Review of the major published literature. 

Result(s): Quantitatively, women secrete greater amounts of androgen than of estrogen. The major circulating steroids generally classified as androgens include dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS), dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), androstenedione (A), testosterone (T), and dihydrotestosterone in descending order of serum concentration, though only the latter two bind the androgen receptor. The other three steroids are better considered as pro-androgens. Dehydroepiandrosterone is primarily an adrenal product, regulated by adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) and acting as a precursor for the peripheral synthesis of more potent androgens. Dehydroepiandrosterone is produced by both the ovary and adrenal, as well as being derived from circulating DHEAS. Androstenedione and testosterone are products of the ovary and the adrenal. Testosterone circulates both in its free form, and bound to protein including albumin and sex steroid hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), the levels of which are an important determinant of free testosterone concentration. 

Conclusion(s): The postmenopausal ovary is an androgen-secreting organ and the levels of testosterone are not directly influenced by the menopausal transition or the occurrence of menopause. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is primarily a peripheral product of testosterone metabolism. Severe androgen deficiency occurs in hypopituitarism, but other causes may lead to androgen deficiency, including Addison's disease, corticosteroid therapy, chronic illness, estrogen replacement (leads to elevated SHBG and, therefore, low free testosterone), premenopausal ovarian failure, or oophorectomy.

I’ve been using a little more and I’m a small person.

Here’s a rat study with the 77.5 kg human (average woman) equivalent of 3,230 mg saponins (6,460 mg 50% saponin) with various benefits:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8539775/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=fenugreek has 1,634 fenugreek studies.  I’ve never found harm at any amount but you’re free to browse through them.  The closest thing to harm I can remember is rabbits eating a diet of 100% fenugreek went infertile, I’m guessing from the high hormones, similar to birth control.  Many of the linked studies have amounts.

She asked what the max is, so I said 2,400 mg 50% saponin, maybe 3,000-3,600 mg.  After trying less first and confirming no negative effects.  I bring up 3,000-3,600 mg because it’s unlikely to hurt at all, unlike even 1 capsule of PM which has caused trouble in programs much more often.  Especially if not balanced with progesterone or to balance out an existing high progesterone / low estrogen imbalance.  The main downside to 3,000-3,600 mg is that it might not help much more.  It’s a safer bet than diving into the more problematic PM.  Many forum programs have used 2,400 mg.  Many have also used 1-3 tbsp. of the whole seed.  The forum search tool should pick up those.  I’ve also talked directly to several doing the same. Fenugreek has multiple health benefits including balancing hormones, preventing cancer and improving mood.  For most people besides hypoglycemics reducing blood sugar is also a health benefit and it does not do so excessively.  Most women using it feel better and have better health rather than getting hormonal problems as with other nbe ways.