[timarie]

Goat's rue can also be considered.

Yup! Definitely already considering it and looking into it. Thanks for the input!!

[AbiDrew85]

Something I PM'd timarie that she asked me to share onto her thread:

Soooo...

I'm going to start by explaining as much as I can think of about the interactions of the NORMAL androgen portion of the endocrine systems as they relate to the FEMALE body... Which differs only slightly from a MALE body.

Androgens are produced primarily from the progesterone pathway, but also through a side-chain pathway, from pregnenolone, which is itself also a progestin.

Curiously, it's the pregnenolone pathway that seems to be most over-active in the majority of female hirsutism cases... But that's unrelated to your own case haha. Just something curious that I've come across lol.

From pregnenolone, the 17-alpha-hydroxylase enzyme ADDS an OH molecule, and the 17,20 lyase enzyme takes it away again and reduces the total size of the chain by eliminating the entire bonding site the OH molecule bonded to and an additional unused bonding site. This produces the first androgen in the pathway, DHEA.

From DHEA the 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme, despite its name, further reduces the chain by hydrogenating it and producing androstanediol.

At any point along the pregnenolone pathway the 3-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme can convert it over to the main pathway, which starts with progesterone.

From progesterone the same process that produced DHEA produces androsteniodone, which, like it's counterpart on the pregnenolone pathway, is the first androgen of the pathway.

The same enzyme that produced androstanediol reduces this chain to testosterone, and as you already know, the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme turns this into DHT.

As you are also likely aware, aromatase turns testosterone into estradiol. What you might not know is that aromatase also changes androsteniodone into estrone and just like the two androgen side-chains, it's 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase that makes estrone into estradiol.

So, now. What chinese skullcap does is it partially inhibits both 17,20 lyase and 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase... So..... We need to be careful, ESPECIALLY in a female system, not to over-use it. ESPECIALLY because while it partially inhibits both of those reductions, it more strongly inhibits 17-beta-HSD...

This can potentially lead to a E1/E2 imbalance. Which is VERY VERY VEEEEEEEEERY potentially bad. As in. Leads to elevated cancer risk bad.

I don't have to worry much because, as a genetic male, and especially as such a damned "skinny bitch" I have very little aromatase to produce ANY natural estrogens with. I would have had to worry if I started off with CS instead of with licorice over two years ago when I still weighed 180 pounds...

But you're female, and judging by your hormone balance, there's NOTHING wrong with your aromatase levels. So... BIG RISK taking too much.

So here's where another facet of the endocrine system comes in to help save us. Sex-hormone-binding-globulin. SHBG for short. What SHBG does is it picks up any left over steroids not being bound to any other receptors and deactivates them, which then allows them to be removed from the body through the normal waste elimination processes.

A curious phenomenon that's not entirely understood WHY it works this way, but it's simply accepted that it does, is that when receptors are being blocked, the hormone that would go for that receptor doesn't even try and gets picked up by SHBG even quicker. And SHBG already plays favorites and prefers androgens...

So that's where the spearmint comes in. It doesn't play with any enzymes at all, it simply just blocks off the androgen receptors, and with the absolutely smallest and least androgenically active phyto-hormone known. Since it's so small and so inactive it both moves through the blood system quickly, and reduces the overall androgen traffic significantly, which makes SHBG have a field day picking up and eliminating androgens.

Now... You actually do need SOME testosterone, so that's why we're going low doses on each. Reduce the traffic just enough to allow for an increase in the estrogenic and progestagenic traffic without allowing congestion to occur while also not reducing it so far that you can't keep up your resistance training.

So... I hope that all made sense! It really did need a bigger picture look at the entire system in order to explain.

And now... Why I think fenugreek is the best choice for timarie for a prolactin boost...

I did a lot of research into a way I could cyclically boost my prolactin without changing any other hormones much or at all if at all possible back when I decided on using fenugreek myself. Since timarie shares that same desire, she may as well go with my own decision

When I was studying I found that most proven to be raising prolactin galactagogues are also massive sources of weak phytoestrogens... This is fantastic if what you want to do really is to start producing milk. It's awful if you're wanting prolactin for any other reason.

Goat's rue was even more intriguing because it seems it never raised any prolactin levels at all when a study was done on it... But it did make about half the women start lactating. So why it works as a galactagogue or how is anyones guess, but it does NOT raise prolactin.

Now. There's a LOT of misinformation about what fenugreek actually does do... It's properties in regards to estrogen and progesterone are purely adaptogenic. It'd seem to raise the ceiling at which the negative feedback loops begin to occur, allowing you to raise your levels beyond the usual cut off. So when combined with a powerful HRT program it appears to be even more estrogenic, but in reality, it's just preventing your body from deciding it no longer needs to make more hormones.

It's also a weak anti-androgen by direct effect. It blocks mainly the side-chain conversion into the primary chain androgens via the 3-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme mentioned in the above spiel about anti-androgens.

So from what I found on fenugreek it fit the bill perfectly. Allows me to jack up my hormones even more, help fight my androgen beast, and give me a boost of prolactin, all in one herb, but without delivering any other hormones.

The anti-androgen effect at the doses you'd use are very very weak, I really wouldn't consider it worth mentioning except for completeness sake.

[pom19]

Bravo Abi, well done research.

[timarie]

Bravo Abi, well done research.

I second this! Thanks for sharing your knowledge on my thread, Abi!

[timarie]

Up-Date

So now I have been on UB and MSM for 3 weeks now, and my antiandrogens for only 1 week. I finally got my menses last night, making my last cycle 34 days long (it was long because I took 10 PM capsules during my last follicular phase of this past cycle, before I made my decision to switch over to BO. I did it just to make one last "ka-pow" before I left the program... go out with a bang ). So far, no cramps

I started wearing my Phase I Bradelis Bra last Thursday (two days ago) and plan to wear it until I grow out of it, at which point I will switch over to a Phase II bra. It is a 32C and I fill it, although I will not say that I completely fill it. It is important to know that the Bradelis 32C is like a 32B. They run pretty small. So, I will move on to the next bra size up for a Phase II when I grow to fit a 32C (= Bradelis 32D). And finally a Phase III when I reach my goal of a 32D (= Bradelis 32DD).

I accidentally bought my Phase II bra in a 32C (same size as my Phase I bra) and want to see if I can exchange it for a 32D. If I cannot, I will consider posting it for sale on BN. If anyone thinks they may possibly be interested, please PM me! I never wore it.

EDIT: I got cramps, and got'em good.... So I decided to resume the Fenugreek because that was the only thing that was consistently not in my program when I had cramps, and consistently in my program when I was cramp-free. I resumed taking Fenugreek today.

[timarie]

Finally time for my first Measurement Update as it has been almost a month that I have been taking UB and MSM, almost 2 weeks since I have been on my antiandrogens, and a little less than a week since I have been on Fenugreek (which, I forgot to mention in my last post, I am taking 1.22 grams of FG three times a day, so that makes for 3.66 grams total per day). I am taking the Fenugreek to relieve my menstrual cramping and for prolactin.


My Measurements for my first BO cycle are:
Underbust/Bust: 29"/36"
Waist: 25.5"
Hip/Butt: 40"

As I mentioned in my Curves Thread, instead of looking at the nice large number of the luteal phase and then getting disappointed every time my follicular phase comes around, I will measure myself only once a month, and for the sake of accuracy that will be during the follicular phase.

Towards the end of this past Luteal Phase (a week ago), I did not experience any swelling but I DID experience a lot of soreness in my breasts, which NEVER happens to me, so I considered that a good sign. My breasts (although not visibly bigger) were very, very heavy and dense. I don't know what that means, but any change at my age and with my current size can only more likely be a good thing!

Although the tape measure shows an inch difference between now and before my BO program, I am taking it with a grain of salt because it doesn't feel or look any different. But again, it "not feeling or looking any different" could just be the typical Follicular dilemma. It could also be because I have been drinking more fluids in the past week, and the measurement could have fluctuated due to water weight. Either way, I am using my Bradelis Bra as a measurement guide mostly, and I do not completely fill it. I refuse to get excited until I completely fill that bra I will post my "Before" photos in that bra sometime this weekend.

A Question for the Senior Members:
Recently I've been wondering why we are advised to keep our temperature up to at least 98.2 degrees when I know that BBT naturally fluctuates (without hormonal supplements or glandular therapy) down to 97 degrees at times during the follicular phase. I have been watching my BBT's for 9 cycles now, 2.5 of which were before NBE. I am not at all concerned with my temps going low in my follicular phase, but I just wonder what all the fuss is about with raising our temps while on BO. What is the importance (if there really is any) of keeping our BBT's up higher than they are normally, and is it crucial to take something to keep it up?

[timarie]

Alright, so in response to my question, iamsorpor responded and pointed me in the direction of the thyroid of which I was aware, but above a 98.1? I was skeptical. This is what we discussed:

It's funny cuz I read all the same about keeping the temps high as you posted above, accept for:

"If your body temperature is below 98.2, your liver just does not produce enough enzymes to convert your thyroid hormones from T4 to T3 and Bovine Ovary will not have the desired effect on your body."

I'd need to do research on this, because healthy temperatures for the follicular phase range down as low as around 97 degrees according to some example ovulation charts of a healthy cycle. I cannot believe that they tell us to keep our temps above 98.2 degrees because that is too high for follicular phase. If one has temps that high in follicular phase, they will have thyroid problems, ironically (see: http://www.whitelotusclinic.ca/basal-bod...rettyPhoto ). In thyroid disorders, BBT's will be either abnormally high (>98) or abnormally low (<97). At least, according to the sample charts I have seen. I have been unsuccessful in finding a sample range per phase of healthy BBT's so far It all depends on what time of the day one is taking them, too. If I take my temps in the afternoon, they are much higher than they are in the morning. But, I suppose the BO companies recommend that at your lowest, not to go below 98.2. I just find that really... strange... It just doesn't make any sense to me!!

Thank you for sharing! I will need to follow up on this one now.

EDIT:
Sorry I am hijacking your thread, but I thought you might be interested since we've been talking about it It seems that a healthy range (NOTED FOR ONLY THE 2ND, 3RD, AND 4TH DAYS OF MENSTRUATION) are between 97.6 and 98.2 ( http://doctormurray.com/health-condition...hyroidism/ ). Taking one's BBT's for the purpose of monitoring one's thyroid is NOT recommended during the Luteal Phase and certainly not the first day of the cycle or the rest of the days of the Follicular Phase, since the Luteal Phase's temperatures are determined by one's progesterone levels and the Follicular Phase is determined by one's thyroid, but the rest of the Follicular Phase I suppose is allowed to fluctuate possibly lower (?) ( http://www.whitelotusclinic.ca/basal-bod...rettyPhoto ).

With this information, I went back to look at the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th BBTs of all of my recorded cycles since March and only 5 out of 21 BBTs were higher than 97.5 degrees. And those were all BEFORE I went on Bovine Ovary! This cycle on Bovine Ovary, I recorded 97 degrees on both the second and fourth days, and the third day I forgot to take my BBT. But I am guessing it was also significantly under 97.6, given the obvious pattern. Considering my sleeping issues, I may need to look into this a bit more, and at the very least take something for it for now to at least keep it from becoming a problem. Fortunately for me, UB does not have kelp in it. Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e9-YwS1S_s And I don't plan to take L-Tyrosine, because check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG1KoCJsSWQ So I guess I'll be starting some thyroid glandular (if I am so fortunate enough to find some at my local Vitamin Shoppe. If not, guess I will just be ordering them tomorrow...).

*sigh* What originally started out as a simple program is now becoming slightly complicated! But, this is the way it should be, becoming complicated based off of my needs and my needs only.

[AbiDrew85]

Actually that doctor has oversimplified a much more complex situation.

Check these out:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/iodine12345/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/05/iod...is-part-i/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/nu...-selenium/

So, I'd suggest getting your iodine tested, as suggested by the first link, though I rather suspect you're low.

IF I'm right, then take:
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-u...-ml-liquid
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/world-org...-oz-liquid

I'd also suggest still taking a thyroid glandular. I take the concentrace btw, but don't supplement my iodine, my levels are seemingly fine.

A teaspoon of concentrace and 2 drops of potassium iodide. Absolutely no more than 4 drops of iodide and a teaspoon of concentrace.

You might also want to supplement Vitamin C, but the way I understand your diet, you should be getting plenty of that.

[timarie]

Actually that doctor has oversimplified a much more complex situation.

Check these out:
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/iodine12345/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/05/iod...is-part-i/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/nu...-selenium/

So, I'd suggest getting your iodine tested, as suggested by the first link, though I rather suspect you're low.

IF I'm right, then take:
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-u...-ml-liquid
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/world-org...-oz-liquid

I'd also suggest still taking a thyroid glandular. I take the concentrace btw, but don't supplement my iodine, my levels are seemingly fine.

A teaspoon of concentrace and 2 drops of potassium iodide. Absolutely no more than 4 drops of iodide and a teaspoon of concentrace.

You might also want to supplement Vitamin C, but the way I understand your diet, you should be getting plenty of that.

Thanks for that break down, Abi! Now I will just have to set aside the time to read all of that!

But yeah I would like to know, based on these articles, how is one supposed to get iodine from their diet, then? And, if they can't, then shouldn't everyone be deficient in iodine? mmm.

And about the concentrace: when I went to get my hormones tested by my doctor, she insisted on testing other things as well for the sake of determining the cause of my apparent fatigue. Here are the results for my Potassium, Sodium, and Chloride. Potassium: 4.1 mmol/L (range 3.5-5.3); Sodium: 138 mmol/L (range 135-146); and Chloride: 104 mmol/L (range 98-110). Megnesium was not tested, and neither was Iodine. But I seem to be alright in all of the ones for which I was tested, so I don't think the concentrace is necessary. I wasn't tested for Sulfate or Boron either, but to be honest with you, I am getting overwhelmed and with dealing with all that I am currently dealing with on my plate, just might say: SCREW IT. I don't think I am going to bother with this as it is not very safe to supplement iodine and I seem to be fine in the three minerals anyway. Unless it is a very serious situation, I don't want to have to mess with a supplement that can easily be overdone and is very unsafe to overdo. And it cannot be THAT serious because, after all, I haven't one of the biggest tall-tale signs of a low thyroid (weight gain). My program I wanted to keep as simple as possible, not load it up with a ton of supplements. Ain't nobody got time for that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cT_Ulmcrys

Like, I don't KNOW if I have thyroid problems and, actually, it seems that weight gain is ALWAYS a result of a low thyroid, so perhaps my low temps are not indicative of it. After all, they said it MAY indicate thyroid problems, not that it means that I definitely have them. My low temps may be caused by something else...?

[timarie]

I was worried about temps being hypo and all. My underweight and temps were low, working against me. But guess what, a little whey and progesterone monitoring took care of that! I grew within 3 months of taking BO. Very surprised.

Even though there's merit in higher temps = good for growth, I think its a cop-out for BB as when a person doesn't grow, they've got something to point out as to why.

"Well, how where your temps? Where they up high enough? Low thyroid could prevent your potential gains."

Well, I'm proof anyway...

Thanks for that T, I was just going to PM you about this! It makes sense that they would use it as a cop-out, because it really doesn't make ANY sense for a woman to have >98.1 degrees during her follicular cycle, which is why I was skeptical of any recommendations to take something to raise temps to begin with. But I guess after the few websites I read about the temps needing to be at least 97.6, then that was when I started to get concerned.

As for whey, you and I both know that I get ENOUGH of that. Yet, my BBTs have always been pretty low. Could it really be a deficiency in iodine? How did your Progesterone help (did it raise your BBT or improve the effectiveness of BO without effecting your BBT)?

If lower BBT during the follicular phase don't really do anything (let's face it: it is not the low BBTs that really effect the effectiveness of BO. The low BBTs signify a possibly poor functioning thyroid which, in turn, effects the effectiveness of BO) and it is just a poor thyroid that is what directly effects the effectiveness of BO, then I suppose I should not be worried about it unless I do, in fact, have a problem with my thyroid (which I am guessing I don't, because I don't have an issue with weight gain).

Am I correct when I say that it is not high BBTs that result in good growth; rather, it is a healthy thyroid that results in good growth, correct? And BBTs are simply just indicative of a thyroid's functioning. [bOr[/b] do the BBTs actually effect the effectiveness of BO directly in some way?