[Isabelle]

This much appreciated post
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10869&pid=47975#pid47975
got me thinking again about whether I should be using a 5α-reductase type II inhibitor. The xanthohumol in hops works fine as a type I inhibitor, because it keeps the acne away. But the advantage of using a type II inhibitor too would be in prevention of male pattern baldness.

Secoisolariciresinol diglucoside (SDG), the main lignan in flax (linseed), is also a 5α-reductase inhibitor, but I'm not sure for what type.

So I'm thinking about azelaic acid. That's in in rye, barley grass, and whole grain cereals. I still have barley grass, and Eve M used it too. I first grew on a hops formula that contains rye, and I was also eating rye bread at the time. Hair loss and using minoxidil came later.

I prefer not to use borage (starflower) oil, because the GLA in it is a prostaglandin precursor, and I want to have an update first on how prostaglandin D2 affects male pattern baldness. And on which prostaglandins GLA increases.

I'm not sure pumpkin seed and stinging nettle root really are 5α-reductase inhibitors:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41849#pid41849
Besides, there is an aromatase blocker in stinging nettle root:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41558#pid41558

SP grows biggger thighs:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=47720#pid47720

So there is not much choice left, except for the azelaic acid. Well, I haven't been drinking licorice and mint teas lately, but that's because I had no pimples. I sleep with a scrunchy in my hair, and there is not unusually much hair in it in the morning.

Right now, I don't want to take too much out of my program, but after summer, I will be taking out things like L-arginine, maca, black seed, and goat's rue, to align with Eve M's program. I'll add soy meal, and when my milk ducts are long enough, a small dose of fennel tea. But barley grass or rye is something I could add next week.

Another thing I learned is I should take another close look at the ingredients of succesful formulas. Certainly at the maize in my old hops formula, breast-gro. And at Eve M's program, of course. And at Wonderup, and maybe Natureday.

[karen]

Hi everyone ..... been awhile

Time to come back and get caught up on all my reading .....

I just can't stay away ... the "kinky devils" have been quiet long enough

Karen

[Isabelle]

Goat's rue
Today, I bought 200 g for € 6.55 at http://www.jacob-hooy.nl
This afternoon, I ran out of 200 g in 23+31+13=67 days = 3,000 mg. So this is why I had less swelling over the last two months. It really takes 4,500 mg to enjoy the full benefits. But there are advantages to a more sensible dose too. Cost and safety, among others.

Maca
Today, I bought 300 g for € 15.25. It was a special offer from Jacob Hooy, from € 16.95. It's another brand: Raw & organic maca powder 300 g. My normal brand is Mattisson, it's € 16.95 too at www.vanderpigge.nl

L-arginine
Almost two weeks ago, on Monday 2012-04-02, I started the ramp up at 1 capsule a day. The day after tomorrow, I will run out of 2 * 50 capsules I had bought at www.detuinen.nl for € 19.98. Today, I bought 4 * 50 capsules at de Tuinen in the Kalverstraat at Amsterdam for € 19.98! Just yesterday I ordered on-line from the same chain store for the same price: 12 * 50 capsules for € 59.92.

I'm losing weight rapidly, 78.5 kg this morning, and this afternoon, 78.0 kg after shopping. Yet all my sizes are the same as yesterday. So I want to stick to the program I have now. At this rate, it's only weeks to my target weight of 73.5 kg. Then all I need for my dream body is a Waist to Hip Ratio of 0.75. But since I'm already down from 0.95 to 0.82 in eight months, I should get there by the end of the year

[Isabelle]

Heeey Karen,

Welcome back! Must be spring time

[karen]

Yes it is

Figured it was time for a new avatar too

I've been playing around with my "Testim, Hops, FG, and Licorice Tea" the past few weeks.

I've tried using Hops extract with Water AND mixed with Vanilla Yogurt ... I remember you talking about the different ways Hops acts depending on whether it's mixed with something and digested vs just in water.

Could you please go over the diiferences for me again ... so I understand exactly what I will accomplish ingesting Hops both ways.

Since I am using Testim and LH and my own T production is not an issue I can pretty much control it all myself.

I'd like to be able to block DHT as I desire PLUS I'd like to add phyto-estrogens as I desire.

BTW .... I'm loving the nice round plumpness that FG causes ....

Any other words of Wisdom would be welcomed

Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

The story about hops digestion is here:
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/7/1862.full
In short: xanthohumol and isoxanthohumol are anti-androgens, 5α-reductase inhibitors. I'm sure they inhibit 5α-reductase type I, not so sure about type II. A bacteria in the large intestine makes 8-prenylnaringenin from isoxanthohumol. 8-prenylnaringenin is a phyto-estrogen. Since there is 10-20 times more isoxanthohumol than 8-prenylnaringenin in hops, digestion really turns it from an anti-androgen into a phyto-estrogen. If you don't have the right bacteria, they sell a supplement "Menohop", which is a hops extract plus a probiotic for those bacteria. It's more expensive than just hops, but taking one box to colonize your intestine should be enough.

Even then, drinking hops tea on an empty stomach should leave the anti-androgens intact. Used like that, hops prevents acne.

I'm not sure if I'm blocking all the ways to make DHT myself. I neglected that area, because i thought: blocked is blocked. Now I'm planning to do an experiment with barley grass as a 5α-reductase type II inhibitor. Rye bread should work as well. The difference with hops, if any, should be in hair loss. Not sure how I'm going to measure that.

My progress over the last month was in weight. I attribute it to black seed (nigella sativa). That's a waist slimmer that makes me lose weight too. Fenugreek slims the waist, but it puts on weight. Goat's rue slims the waist, but it did nothing for my weight.

Adding phyto-estrogens at will is the Boobie Grail of this board. Nearly all of them have their disadvantages:
- depression from hops
- SHBG increase from flax
- PM suppresses prolactin
- soy slows the thyroid, and is easily over dosed
- RC and licorice contain phyto-progestins as well
People on the board are experimenting with lotus seed, dandelion, milk thistle, and shatavari. sfem did well on blessed thistle. Yellow dock and sheep sorrel require more experiments.

[lostacres6]

Hi Isabelle,
Congrats on your weight loss.
You mentioned Hops causes depression. I've had terrible mood swings/ crying jags since adding Hops (mainly for sleep). I took your advice & added Valerian with the Hops. No decrease. I looked into Vitex (chasteberry). In one of the posts, it said it decreases porlactin & is bad for NBE purposes. Now you said PM also decreases prolactin. So I'm taking FG, GR & 1 fennel to increase prolactin. But I can't stand the depression symptoms. Wahaika once said to put up with the side effects if you experience growth. But I'm not sure if I'm having growth or not. What should I do?
Thank you.

[karen]

I remember that article ... finding it, that was another story

So to have a starting point ...... if I make sure that my intestines have that right bacteria then I can use Hops for two purposes ...

Taken with water on an Empty stomach and I inhibit the creation of DHT ... leaving more Free T to be changed into Estradiol.

Taken with food ... to cause digestion ... I add Phtyo-estrogens ... ending up as Estradiol as well ....

Any drawbacks that you know of of colonizing that bacteria in your colon? When you say a "box" would be enough .... I'm seeing things like "30 capsules" .... will that do it?

So once I have that combo I could, in theory find out how much "undigested hops" I want to use to block DHT ... and then take digested Hops to get the amount of Phyto-estroegns that I want.

Anything to be aware of with FG other than putting on weight ... like I said it does make whatever tiny boobs that I have feel so nice and full and round ... even makes them tingle

How about something to lower SBHG .... resulting in more Free T ... keep in mind that worrying about lowering LH/FSH isn't an issue here .... they are already both pretty low to begin with due to TRT ... that "could" result in more Estradiol ... as long as I don't run out of aromatase

Karen

[karen]

I've got more searching/reading to do but it looks like "Eubacterium limosum" is what I should be interested in/looking for.

Like I said more searching/reading to do .....

Karen

[Isabelle]

Thank you lostacres6,

I use maca to balance the depressing effect of hops. The oat flakes may contribute too.

The problem is that something in hops binds to serotonin receptors directly:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=47024#pid47024

Mel (itsjust4fun91) just wrote in her program thread she uses 5-HTP. You could also try a supplement called "after E". Those will increase your serotonin level, but I don't know if serotonin binds to the receptor stronger than hops. You'll never know without trying, though. These experiments are quick and safe.