[Cely]

Hey joe, I don’t wanna use PM all the month, I did it, and It increased just my thights and cellulite. 
If I’ll use it i think is better to use a topical or cycling. 


Also, one of my friend interest in NBE used PM and she grew, but she get something like “man boobs”, is this due to low progesterone? 

Right now I don’t know what to add on my program, I read that saw palmetto lowers estrogens, this can be ok for me because of my heavy thights (and maybe estrogen dominance) but i’m Not sure if I m on the right way. 
I can’t find white peony, so, i’m Thinking about hops or goat’s rue...

[surferjoe2007]

Hey joe, I don’t wanna use PM all the month, I did it, and It increased just my thights and cellulite. 
If I’ll use it i think is better to use a topical or cycling. 


Also, one of my friend interest in NBE used PM and she grew, but she get something like “man boobs”, is this due to low progesterone? 

Right now I don’t know what to add on my program, I read that saw palmetto lowers estrogens, this can be ok for me because of my heavy thights (and maybe estrogen dominance) but i’m Not sure if I m on the right way. 
I can’t find white peony, so, i’m Thinking about hops or goat’s rue...

If PM did that to you from taking it all month then it will probably do that in general.  Best to limit the amount of PM in general.  Hops is also pretty strong (but much weaker than PM).  Up to 1,800 mg is used all month but you’ll want much less than this.  Optionally you may cycle it but it’s not necessary.

I’m not sure about shape but it is often from low progesterone or low collagen.

[Cely]

Well, you inspired me, today i order my progesterone cream, but i’ll Use it just in my lutheal because I think i’m also lacking of estrogens, so, I don’t want to mess up my body. 

Also, I find a lot of scientific articles about ginecomastia, and I see it’s related with prolactin and it is generally permanent (a lot of boys who used antipsychotic drugs-which lead to hyperprolactinemia- can’t get rid of man boobs without surgery) so maybe goats rue and hops are a good choice. 

I have a lot of nipple pain and something tingles since I’m taking saw palmetto, I think it is a good sign, isn’t it? 

Thank u for all your informations Joe.

[crystal20]

I thought I'd clean up and organize my simple program a bit better.

Option 1, Easy but Minor Growth (1-3 cup sizes, often 1-2):
For this option you should be starting as at least a B cup-ish before any NBE (possibly more or less by height & weight).  

Herbs:

• 600 mg 50% saponin shatavari extract
  
• 320 mg saw palmetto extract
  
• 1 tbsp. ground flax seeds (nice in a smoothie, with honey, as a topping, etc.)
  
• 1 capsule vitex (around 300-700 mg)
  
• Optional: a scoop of collagen powder.  A capsule is too small.
  
• Optional: You may add in a little massage with flax oil since it's good for you, but beyond that I suggest Option 2.
  
• Optional: 3g maca for the butt.
  

Option 2, Major Growth, or Growth starting Smaller than B Cup (Around 4-8 cup sizes)

If you are starting smaller, use the foods below for up to 6 months before beginning.  You may try herbs after as little as 2 months, but you might be wasting the herbs and should not increase beyond a low amount until you start to grow.  If you are starting with at least a B cup, you may use both the herbs and the foods below right away.  Continue both indefinitely.

Herbs:
Increase each cycle, allowing 2-4 cycles before the max amount.  If less growth is desired, stop the PM and PC at a lower amount.

• 50% saponin shatavari extract:  600 mg increased to 1,800-2,400 mg.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: 320 mg.
  
• Pueraria mirifica: Follicular, 100 mg increased to 750-1,000 mg.  Luteal, 100 mg.
  
• Progesterone cream: Follicular, 1/8 tsp.  Luteal: 1/4 tsp increased to 3/4-1 tsp.
  
• Massage at least 3-4 times a week with flax oil, for 10-15 minutes.
  
• Optional: 3-10g maca (about 1-3 tsp) for the butt.  Also optional weighted squats with 5g creatine.
  

Going all out (all optional):

• Do the above for at least 1 cycle first, if not longer.
  
• You may add 5 mg mk-677, increased to 10-20 mg.  Read a few forums to find a good source and other information before using mk-677.  Another much more expensive option instead of mk-677 is Antler Farms deer velvet, 1/4 tablet increased to 1 tablet.
  
• You may massage up to twice a day and pump too if you're in a hurry.  But keep in mind, like everything else, long term it won't make a difference unless you continue it for life."Long term" is after 1-2 years, so it will still be nice for a while.
  
• Fish oil, or 75% fish oil and 25% flax oil is superior to flax oil for massage but smelly.  You may also mix in 0.5% 95%/T95 mixed tocopherol vitamin E oil too.  Or mix in 1% for the  50%/T50 oil.
  
• You may use both saw palmetto and mint (see substitutions section for amount).  Or reishi in place of saw palmetto and/or white peony in place of mint.
  

Foods for Body Enhancement

Why

Foods contain a much wider range of nutrients than you can find in any supplement.  Many hair, skin, nail, vein, acne, weight loss, mood, HGH, energy, youth, etc., etc. supplements contain just part of the nutrients below.  By getting these nutrients from whole food you get both a more complete and effective solution, and you tackle all of these issues at the same time.  Additionally these nutrients are tools and fuel to enable your body perform better, whether for a workout or to better respond to herbs.

Many people think they eat healthy but actually aren't getting all the nutrition they need.  Those on a high protein diet in particular may think that it is healthy but they are often starving themselves not only for calories but also several nutrients.  You can verify that the items in the recipe below cover your nutrient requirements by checking the USDA nutrient database.  Also provided in these foods but not included on the USDA site are many other important nutrients such as antioxidants, beta/etc. tocopherols, and so on.  That's why a multi-vitamin is lacking several items you need.

Recipe

1/4 cup pumpkin seeds
1/4 cup sunflower seeds
1/4 cup almonds
6,000 mg fish oil, or 2lbs. salmon per week, or more of other seafood
3,000 mg lecithin, or a half dozen whole eggs (including yolk) per week
2,000 iu vitamin D, or a slight sun tan
4 tsp rice bran
1/2 an orange, or more of other fresh raw produce
A pinch or so of kelp each week on food (get a shaker for a 6-24 month supply)

Soak the 3 seeds for at least 4 hours, or overnight.  Rinse and snack on.  Take or eat remaining items, with liquid if needed.  These are heavy and fibrous foods.  When first starting use much less, such as 1/4 as much, until your stomach is accustomed to them.  Otherwise you could get digestive issues.

Try it out for at least 2 months, sometimes 6 months, before you expect to see results.  It takes a couple months to replenish your body's stores of these nutrients so that they start working, and if you need them to build something such as your breasts or butt then that could take additional time.

Herb Substitutions

• Shatavari: An equal amount of 50% saponin fenugreek extract may be used in place of shatavari.  You may use a 4:1 wild yam or goat's rue extract, but it may take 5 times as much wild yam and up to 10 times as much goat's rue.  If using goat's rue extract it should not go beyond 6,000 mg 4:1 extract.  Beyond that you should use a different herb instead.  If you find a 10:1 extract, it would require about 3 times as much wild yam or 6 times as much goat's rue, and you should not go beyond the 3600 mg 10:1 goat's rue extract.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: You may replace with 2-10g dry mint, 30g fresh mint (it's super easy to grow), reishi or white peony.  I don't know how much reishi or white peony.
  
• Flax seeds: 100 mg PM, 1,200 mg hops, soy isoflavones (typically a capsule or two).
  
• Vitex: 1/16-1/8 tsp progesterone cream.
  
• PM, PC: 250 mg Bovine ovary may replace about 100 mg PM and 1/8 tsp PC.  More might replace more, but many women have difficulty tolerating this.  See also substitutions for flax seeds and vitex (including 1 tbsp. flax seeds and 1 capsule vitex)
  

Hi surferjoe2007, 

Thanks a lot for your informative posts. I had some doubts regarding the supplements as in the Option 2 program you have enlisted here. I am a 26 year old, pear shaped Indian. I am a full A cup, and wanted to go with the second program.  

In my first trial of NBE, I only took 100g of PM for ~20 days and my cycle got delayed due to which I got scared and stopped it. Also I drank fenugreek water from which I experienced constipation. In view of these two things, can I skip the shatavari and PM from the Option 2 program and only take progesterone cream and saw palmetto? I saw in one of your replies that if fenugreek has caused some issue, then skipping shatavari would also be good. Here in India, I have access to shatavari tablets with only 20% saponins(https://www.1mg.com/otc/inlife-shatavari...gJE0_D_BwE). I have started regular massage since two weeks but wanted to finalise on the supplements to take.


Your suggestions would be really helpful!

[surferjoe2007]

I thought I'd clean up and organize my simple program a bit better.

Option 1, Easy but Minor Growth (1-3 cup sizes, often 1-2):
For this option you should be starting as at least a B cup-ish before any NBE (possibly more or less by height & weight).  

Herbs:

• 600 mg 50% saponin shatavari extract
  
• 320 mg saw palmetto extract
  
• 1 tbsp. ground flax seeds (nice in a smoothie, with honey, as a topping, etc.)
  
• 1 capsule vitex (around 300-700 mg)
  
• Optional: a scoop of collagen powder.  A capsule is too small.
  
• Optional: You may add in a little massage with flax oil since it's good for you, but beyond that I suggest Option 2.
  
• Optional: 3g maca for the butt.
  

Option 2, Major Growth, or Growth starting Smaller than B Cup (Around 4-8 cup sizes)

If you are starting smaller, use the foods below for up to 6 months before beginning.  You may try herbs after as little as 2 months, but you might be wasting the herbs and should not increase beyond a low amount until you start to grow.  If you are starting with at least a B cup, you may use both the herbs and the foods below right away.  Continue both indefinitely.

Herbs:
Increase each cycle, allowing 2-4 cycles before the max amount.  If less growth is desired, stop the PM and PC at a lower amount.

• 50% saponin shatavari extract:  600 mg increased to 1,800-2,400 mg.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: 320 mg.
  
• Pueraria mirifica: Follicular, 100 mg increased to 750-1,000 mg.  Luteal, 100 mg.
  
• Progesterone cream: Follicular, 1/8 tsp.  Luteal: 1/4 tsp increased to 3/4-1 tsp.
  
• Massage at least 3-4 times a week with flax oil, for 10-15 minutes.
  
• Optional: 3-10g maca (about 1-3 tsp) for the butt.  Also optional weighted squats with 5g creatine.
  

Going all out (all optional):

• Do the above for at least 1 cycle first, if not longer.
  
• You may add 5 mg mk-677, increased to 10-20 mg.  Read a few forums to find a good source and other information before using mk-677.  Another much more expensive option instead of mk-677 is Antler Farms deer velvet, 1/4 tablet increased to 1 tablet.
  
• You may massage up to twice a day and pump too if you're in a hurry.  But keep in mind, like everything else, long term it won't make a difference unless you continue it for life."Long term" is after 1-2 years, so it will still be nice for a while.
  
• Fish oil, or 75% fish oil and 25% flax oil is superior to flax oil for massage but smelly.  You may also mix in 0.5% 95%/T95 mixed tocopherol vitamin E oil too.  Or mix in 1% for the  50%/T50 oil.
  
• You may use both saw palmetto and mint (see substitutions section for amount).  Or reishi in place of saw palmetto and/or white peony in place of mint.
  

Foods for Body Enhancement

Why

Foods contain a much wider range of nutrients than you can find in any supplement.  Many hair, skin, nail, vein, acne, weight loss, mood, HGH, energy, youth, etc., etc. supplements contain just part of the nutrients below.  By getting these nutrients from whole food you get both a more complete and effective solution, and you tackle all of these issues at the same time.  Additionally these nutrients are tools and fuel to enable your body perform better, whether for a workout or to better respond to herbs.

Many people think they eat healthy but actually aren't getting all the nutrition they need.  Those on a high protein diet in particular may think that it is healthy but they are often starving themselves not only for calories but also several nutrients.  You can verify that the items in the recipe below cover your nutrient requirements by checking the USDA nutrient database.  Also provided in these foods but not included on the USDA site are many other important nutrients such as antioxidants, beta/etc. tocopherols, and so on.  That's why a multi-vitamin is lacking several items you need.

Recipe

1/4 cup pumpkin seeds
1/4 cup sunflower seeds
1/4 cup almonds
6,000 mg fish oil, or 2lbs. salmon per week, or more of other seafood
3,000 mg lecithin, or a half dozen whole eggs (including yolk) per week
2,000 iu vitamin D, or a slight sun tan
4 tsp rice bran
1/2 an orange, or more of other fresh raw produce
A pinch or so of kelp each week on food (get a shaker for a 6-24 month supply)

Soak the 3 seeds for at least 4 hours, or overnight.  Rinse and snack on.  Take or eat remaining items, with liquid if needed.  These are heavy and fibrous foods.  When first starting use much less, such as 1/4 as much, until your stomach is accustomed to them.  Otherwise you could get digestive issues.

Try it out for at least 2 months, sometimes 6 months, before you expect to see results.  It takes a couple months to replenish your body's stores of these nutrients so that they start working, and if you need them to build something such as your breasts or butt then that could take additional time.

Herb Substitutions

• Shatavari: An equal amount of 50% saponin fenugreek extract may be used in place of shatavari.  You may use a 4:1 wild yam or goat's rue extract, but it may take 5 times as much wild yam and up to 10 times as much goat's rue.  If using goat's rue extract it should not go beyond 6,000 mg 4:1 extract.  Beyond that you should use a different herb instead.  If you find a 10:1 extract, it would require about 3 times as much wild yam or 6 times as much goat's rue, and you should not go beyond the 3600 mg 10:1 goat's rue extract.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: You may replace with 2-10g dry mint, 30g fresh mint (it's super easy to grow), reishi or white peony.  I don't know how much reishi or white peony.
  
• Flax seeds: 100 mg PM, 1,200 mg hops, soy isoflavones (typically a capsule or two).
  
• Vitex: 1/16-1/8 tsp progesterone cream.
  
• PM, PC: 250 mg Bovine ovary may replace about 100 mg PM and 1/8 tsp PC.  More might replace more, but many women have difficulty tolerating this.  See also substitutions for flax seeds and vitex (including 1 tbsp. flax seeds and 1 capsule vitex)
  

Hi surferjoe2007, 

Thanks a lot for your informative posts. I had some doubts regarding the supplements as in the Option 2 program you have enlisted here. I am a 26 year old, pear shaped Indian. I am a full A cup, and wanted to go with the second program.  

In my first trial of NBE, I only took 100g of PM for ~20 days and my cycle got delayed due to which I got scared and stopped it. Also I drank fenugreek water from which I experienced constipation. In view of these two things, can I skip the shatavari and PM from the Option 2 program and only take progesterone cream and saw palmetto? I saw in one of your replies that if fenugreek has caused some issue, then skipping shatavari would also be good. Here in India, I have access to shatavari tablets with only 20% saponins(https://www.1mg.com/otc/inlife-shatavari...gJE0_D_BwE). I have started regular massage since two weeks but wanted to finalise on the supplements to take.


Your suggestions would be really helpful!

Since you are A cup and pear shape it is a good idea to use low herbs for a while.   Use 100% of the foods.  Yes leaving out the PM for now is also a good idea.  The main related issue with fenugreek and shatavari is that both are bad for those with low blood sugar.  They also have similar effects on NBE.  But stomach problems are common mostly from whole fenugreek herb.  An extract is unlikely to have the same digestive problems, and a shatavari extract is even less likely to cause stomach problems.

The 20% saponin tablets are perfectly fine.  You simply use 2.5 times as much to match 50% saponin capsules.

[Shifa]

I thought I'd clean up and organize my simple program a bit better.

Option 1, Easy but Minor Growth (1-3 cup sizes, often 1-2):
For this option you should be starting as at least a B cup-ish before any NBE (possibly more or less by height & weight).  

Herbs:

• 600 mg 50% saponin shatavari extract
  
• 320 mg saw palmetto extract
  
• 1 tbsp. ground flax seeds (nice in a smoothie, with honey, as a topping, etc.)
  
• 1 capsule vitex (around 300-700 mg)
  
• Optional: a scoop of collagen powder.  A capsule is too small.
  
• Optional: You may add in a little massage with flax oil since it's good for you, but beyond that I suggest Option 2.
  
• Optional: 3g maca for the butt.
  

Option 2, Major Growth, or Growth starting Smaller than B Cup (Around 4-8 cup sizes)

If you are starting smaller, use the foods below for up to 6 months before beginning.  You may try herbs after as little as 2 months, but you might be wasting the herbs and should not increase beyond a low amount until you start to grow.  If you are starting with at least a B cup, you may use both the herbs and the foods below right away.  Continue both indefinitely.

Herbs:
Increase each cycle, allowing 2-4 cycles before the max amount.  If less growth is desired, stop the PM and PC at a lower amount.

• 50% saponin shatavari extract:  600 mg increased to 1,800-2,400 mg.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: 320 mg.
  
• Pueraria mirifica: Follicular, 100 mg increased to 750-1,000 mg.  Luteal, 100 mg.
  
• Progesterone cream: Follicular, 1/8 tsp.  Luteal: 1/4 tsp increased to 3/4-1 tsp.
  
• Massage at least 3-4 times a week with flax oil, for 10-15 minutes.
  
• Optional: 3-10g maca (about 1-3 tsp) for the butt.  Also optional weighted squats with 5g creatine.
  

Going all out (all optional):

• Do the above for at least 1 cycle first, if not longer.
  
• You may add 5 mg mk-677, increased to 10-20 mg.  Read a few forums to find a good source and other information before using mk-677.  Another much more expensive option instead of mk-677 is Antler Farms deer velvet, 1/4 tablet increased to 1 tablet.
  
• You may massage up to twice a day and pump too if you're in a hurry.  But keep in mind, like everything else, long term it won't make a difference unless you continue it for life."Long term" is after 1-2 years, so it will still be nice for a while.
  
• Fish oil, or 75% fish oil and 25% flax oil is superior to flax oil for massage but smelly.  You may also mix in 0.5% 95%/T95 mixed tocopherol vitamin E oil too.  Or mix in 1% for the  50%/T50 oil.
  
• You may use both saw palmetto and mint (see substitutions section for amount).  Or reishi in place of saw palmetto and/or white peony in place of mint.
  

Foods for Body Enhancement

Why

Foods contain a much wider range of nutrients than you can find in any supplement.  Many hair, skin, nail, vein, acne, weight loss, mood, HGH, energy, youth, etc., etc. supplements contain just part of the nutrients below.  By getting these nutrients from whole food you get both a more complete and effective solution, and you tackle all of these issues at the same time.  Additionally these nutrients are tools and fuel to enable your body perform better, whether for a workout or to better respond to herbs.

Many people think they eat healthy but actually aren't getting all the nutrition they need.  Those on a high protein diet in particular may think that it is healthy but they are often starving themselves not only for calories but also several nutrients.  You can verify that the items in the recipe below cover your nutrient requirements by checking the USDA nutrient database.  Also provided in these foods but not included on the USDA site are many other important nutrients such as antioxidants, beta/etc. tocopherols, and so on.  That's why a multi-vitamin is lacking several items you need.

Recipe

1/4 cup pumpkin seeds
1/4 cup sunflower seeds
1/4 cup almonds
6,000 mg fish oil, or 2lbs. salmon per week, or more of other seafood
3,000 mg lecithin, or a half dozen whole eggs (including yolk) per week
2,000 iu vitamin D, or a slight sun tan
4 tsp rice bran
1/2 an orange, or more of other fresh raw produce
A pinch or so of kelp each week on food (get a shaker for a 6-24 month supply)

Soak the 3 seeds for at least 4 hours, or overnight.  Rinse and snack on.  Take or eat remaining items, with liquid if needed.  These are heavy and fibrous foods.  When first starting use much less, such as 1/4 as much, until your stomach is accustomed to them.  Otherwise you could get digestive issues.

Try it out for at least 2 months, sometimes 6 months, before you expect to see results.  It takes a couple months to replenish your body's stores of these nutrients so that they start working, and if you need them to build something such as your breasts or butt then that could take additional time.

Herb Substitutions

• Shatavari: An equal amount of 50% saponin fenugreek extract may be used in place of shatavari.  You may use a 4:1 wild yam or goat's rue extract, but it may take 5 times as much wild yam and up to 10 times as much goat's rue.  If using goat's rue extract it should not go beyond 6,000 mg 4:1 extract.  Beyond that you should use a different herb instead.  If you find a 10:1 extract, it would require about 3 times as much wild yam or 6 times as much goat's rue, and you should not go beyond the 3600 mg 10:1 goat's rue extract.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: You may replace with 2-10g dry mint, 30g fresh mint (it's super easy to grow), reishi or white peony.  I don't know how much reishi or white peony.
  
• Flax seeds: 100 mg PM, 1,200 mg hops, soy isoflavones (typically a capsule or two).
  
• Vitex: 1/16-1/8 tsp progesterone cream.
  
• PM, PC: 250 mg Bovine ovary may replace about 100 mg PM and 1/8 tsp PC.  More might replace more, but many women have difficulty tolerating this.  See also substitutions for flax seeds and vitex (including 1 tbsp. flax seeds and 1 capsule vitex)
  

Hi surferjoe2007, 

Thanks a lot for your informative posts. I had some doubts regarding the supplements as in the Option 2 program you have enlisted here. I am a 26 year old, pear shaped Indian. I am a full A cup, and wanted to go with the second program.  

In my first trial of NBE, I only took 100g of PM for ~20 days and my cycle got delayed due to which I got scared and stopped it. Also I drank fenugreek water from which I experienced constipation. In view of these two things, can I skip the shatavari and PM from the Option 2 program and only take progesterone cream and saw palmetto? I saw in one of your replies that if fenugreek has caused some issue, then skipping shatavari would also be good. Here in India, I have access to shatavari tablets with only 20% saponins(https://www.1mg.com/otc/inlife-shatavari...gJE0_D_BwE). I have started regular massage since two weeks but wanted to finalise on the supplements to take.


Your suggestions would be really helpful!

Since you are A cup and pear shape it is a good idea to use low herbs for a while.   Use 100% of the foods.  Yes leaving out the PM for now is also a good idea.  The main related issue with fenugreek and shatavari is that both are bad for those with low blood sugar.  They also have similar effects on NBE.  But stomach problems are common mostly from whole fenugreek herb.  An extract is unlikely to have the same digestive problems, and a shatavari extract is even less likely to cause stomach problems.

The 20% saponin tablets are perfectly fine.  You simply use 2.5 times as much to match 50% saponin capsules.

Hi 
do you have any alternative to rice bran. Because many brands contains poisonous elements like Arsenic!! 

Thanks in advance

[surferjoe2007]

I thought I'd clean up and organize my simple program a bit better.

Option 1, Easy but Minor Growth (1-3 cup sizes, often 1-2):
For this option you should be starting as at least a B cup-ish before any NBE (possibly more or less by height & weight).  

Herbs:

• 600 mg 50% saponin shatavari extract
  
• 320 mg saw palmetto extract
  
• 1 tbsp. ground flax seeds (nice in a smoothie, with honey, as a topping, etc.)
  
• 1 capsule vitex (around 300-700 mg)
  
• Optional: a scoop of collagen powder.  A capsule is too small.
  
• Optional: You may add in a little massage with flax oil since it's good for you, but beyond that I suggest Option 2.
  
• Optional: 3g maca for the butt.
  

Option 2, Major Growth, or Growth starting Smaller than B Cup (Around 4-8 cup sizes)

If you are starting smaller, use the foods below for up to 6 months before beginning.  You may try herbs after as little as 2 months, but you might be wasting the herbs and should not increase beyond a low amount until you start to grow.  If you are starting with at least a B cup, you may use both the herbs and the foods below right away.  Continue both indefinitely.

Herbs:
Increase each cycle, allowing 2-4 cycles before the max amount.  If less growth is desired, stop the PM and PC at a lower amount.

• 50% saponin shatavari extract:  600 mg increased to 1,800-2,400 mg.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: 320 mg.
  
• Pueraria mirifica: Follicular, 100 mg increased to 750-1,000 mg.  Luteal, 100 mg.
  
• Progesterone cream: Follicular, 1/8 tsp.  Luteal: 1/4 tsp increased to 3/4-1 tsp.
  
• Massage at least 3-4 times a week with flax oil, for 10-15 minutes.
  
• Optional: 3-10g maca (about 1-3 tsp) for the butt.  Also optional weighted squats with 5g creatine.
  

Going all out (all optional):

• Do the above for at least 1 cycle first, if not longer.
  
• You may add 5 mg mk-677, increased to 10-20 mg.  Read a few forums to find a good source and other information before using mk-677.  Another much more expensive option instead of mk-677 is Antler Farms deer velvet, 1/4 tablet increased to 1 tablet.
  
• You may massage up to twice a day and pump too if you're in a hurry.  But keep in mind, like everything else, long term it won't make a difference unless you continue it for life."Long term" is after 1-2 years, so it will still be nice for a while.
  
• Fish oil, or 75% fish oil and 25% flax oil is superior to flax oil for massage but smelly.  You may also mix in 0.5% 95%/T95 mixed tocopherol vitamin E oil too.  Or mix in 1% for the  50%/T50 oil.
  
• You may use both saw palmetto and mint (see substitutions section for amount).  Or reishi in place of saw palmetto and/or white peony in place of mint.
  

Foods for Body Enhancement

Why

Foods contain a much wider range of nutrients than you can find in any supplement.  Many hair, skin, nail, vein, acne, weight loss, mood, HGH, energy, youth, etc., etc. supplements contain just part of the nutrients below.  By getting these nutrients from whole food you get both a more complete and effective solution, and you tackle all of these issues at the same time.  Additionally these nutrients are tools and fuel to enable your body perform better, whether for a workout or to better respond to herbs.

Many people think they eat healthy but actually aren't getting all the nutrition they need.  Those on a high protein diet in particular may think that it is healthy but they are often starving themselves not only for calories but also several nutrients.  You can verify that the items in the recipe below cover your nutrient requirements by checking the USDA nutrient database.  Also provided in these foods but not included on the USDA site are many other important nutrients such as antioxidants, beta/etc. tocopherols, and so on.  That's why a multi-vitamin is lacking several items you need.

Recipe

1/4 cup pumpkin seeds
1/4 cup sunflower seeds
1/4 cup almonds
6,000 mg fish oil, or 2lbs. salmon per week, or more of other seafood
3,000 mg lecithin, or a half dozen whole eggs (including yolk) per week
2,000 iu vitamin D, or a slight sun tan
4 tsp rice bran
1/2 an orange, or more of other fresh raw produce
A pinch or so of kelp each week on food (get a shaker for a 6-24 month supply)

Soak the 3 seeds for at least 4 hours, or overnight.  Rinse and snack on.  Take or eat remaining items, with liquid if needed.  These are heavy and fibrous foods.  When first starting use much less, such as 1/4 as much, until your stomach is accustomed to them.  Otherwise you could get digestive issues.

Try it out for at least 2 months, sometimes 6 months, before you expect to see results.  It takes a couple months to replenish your body's stores of these nutrients so that they start working, and if you need them to build something such as your breasts or butt then that could take additional time.

Herb Substitutions

• Shatavari: An equal amount of 50% saponin fenugreek extract may be used in place of shatavari.  You may use a 4:1 wild yam or goat's rue extract, but it may take 5 times as much wild yam and up to 10 times as much goat's rue.  If using goat's rue extract it should not go beyond 6,000 mg 4:1 extract.  Beyond that you should use a different herb instead.  If you find a 10:1 extract, it would require about 3 times as much wild yam or 6 times as much goat's rue, and you should not go beyond the 3600 mg 10:1 goat's rue extract.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: You may replace with 2-10g dry mint, 30g fresh mint (it's super easy to grow), reishi or white peony.  I don't know how much reishi or white peony.
  
• Flax seeds: 100 mg PM, 1,200 mg hops, soy isoflavones (typically a capsule or two).
  
• Vitex: 1/16-1/8 tsp progesterone cream.
  
• PM, PC: 250 mg Bovine ovary may replace about 100 mg PM and 1/8 tsp PC.  More might replace more, but many women have difficulty tolerating this.  See also substitutions for flax seeds and vitex (including 1 tbsp. flax seeds and 1 capsule vitex)
  

Hi surferjoe2007, 

Thanks a lot for your informative posts. I had some doubts regarding the supplements as in the Option 2 program you have enlisted here. I am a 26 year old, pear shaped Indian. I am a full A cup, and wanted to go with the second program.  

In my first trial of NBE, I only took 100g of PM for ~20 days and my cycle got delayed due to which I got scared and stopped it. Also I drank fenugreek water from which I experienced constipation. In view of these two things, can I skip the shatavari and PM from the Option 2 program and only take progesterone cream and saw palmetto? I saw in one of your replies that if fenugreek has caused some issue, then skipping shatavari would also be good. Here in India, I have access to shatavari tablets with only 20% saponins(https://www.1mg.com/otc/inlife-shatavari...gJE0_D_BwE). I have started regular massage since two weeks but wanted to finalise on the supplements to take.


Your suggestions would be really helpful!

Since you are A cup and pear shape it is a good idea to use low herbs for a while.   Use 100% of the foods.  Yes leaving out the PM for now is also a good idea.  The main related issue with fenugreek and shatavari is that both are bad for those with low blood sugar.  They also have similar effects on NBE.  But stomach problems are common mostly from whole fenugreek herb.  An extract is unlikely to have the same digestive problems, and a shatavari extract is even less likely to cause stomach problems.

The 20% saponin tablets are perfectly fine.  You simply use 2.5 times as much to match 50% saponin capsules.

Hi 
do you have any alternative to rice bran. Because many brands contains poisonous elements like Arsenic!! 

Thanks in advance

The arsenic in rice and rice bran isn't significant.  That's from scare articles.  Arsenic is in all foods including all brands of rice, though rice has more than other foods.

Rice contains about twice as much as other foods.   But if for example 10% of your diet is rice that's only a 10% increase in your overall arsenic consumption.  Arsenic is everywhere, unfortunately, due to old pesticides that are now banned.  The amount is still far below the safe limit.  Extremely strict amounts used by some articles would also mean you have too much arsenic no matter what you eat.

Rice bran is one of the most nutritious foods in the world, so it is likely the benefits greatly outweigh the minor to insignificant risks.  Among other things it has the highest amount of protective antioxidants compared to almost anything else, which are great for eliminating heavy metals such as arsenic.

Rice from California, India or Pakistan has a little less arsenic so you can get them if possible.  But I wouldn't worry too much.  It takes 130g rice bran a day to reach the WHO recommended safe limit of arsenic, though like I said other foods can contribute too.  4 tsp is 18g.

[Shifa]

I thought I'd clean up and organize my simple program a bit better.

Option 1, Easy but Minor Growth (1-3 cup sizes, often 1-2):
For this option you should be starting as at least a B cup-ish before any NBE (possibly more or less by height & weight).  

Herbs:

• 600 mg 50% saponin shatavari extract
  
• 320 mg saw palmetto extract
  
• 1 tbsp. ground flax seeds (nice in a smoothie, with honey, as a topping, etc.)
  
• 1 capsule vitex (around 300-700 mg)
  
• Optional: a scoop of collagen powder.  A capsule is too small.
  
• Optional: You may add in a little massage with flax oil since it's good for you, but beyond that I suggest Option 2.
  
• Optional: 3g maca for the butt.
  

Option 2, Major Growth, or Growth starting Smaller than B Cup (Around 4-8 cup sizes)

If you are starting smaller, use the foods below for up to 6 months before beginning.  You may try herbs after as little as 2 months, but you might be wasting the herbs and should not increase beyond a low amount until you start to grow.  If you are starting with at least a B cup, you may use both the herbs and the foods below right away.  Continue both indefinitely.

Herbs:
Increase each cycle, allowing 2-4 cycles before the max amount.  If less growth is desired, stop the PM and PC at a lower amount.

• 50% saponin shatavari extract:  600 mg increased to 1,800-2,400 mg.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: 320 mg.
  
• Pueraria mirifica: Follicular, 100 mg increased to 750-1,000 mg.  Luteal, 100 mg.
  
• Progesterone cream: Follicular, 1/8 tsp.  Luteal: 1/4 tsp increased to 3/4-1 tsp.
  
• Massage at least 3-4 times a week with flax oil, for 10-15 minutes.
  
• Optional: 3-10g maca (about 1-3 tsp) for the butt.  Also optional weighted squats with 5g creatine.
  

Going all out (all optional):

• Do the above for at least 1 cycle first, if not longer.
  
• You may add 5 mg mk-677, increased to 10-20 mg.  Read a few forums to find a good source and other information before using mk-677.  Another much more expensive option instead of mk-677 is Antler Farms deer velvet, 1/4 tablet increased to 1 tablet.
  
• You may massage up to twice a day and pump too if you're in a hurry.  But keep in mind, like everything else, long term it won't make a difference unless you continue it for life."Long term" is after 1-2 years, so it will still be nice for a while.
  
• Fish oil, or 75% fish oil and 25% flax oil is superior to flax oil for massage but smelly.  You may also mix in 0.5% 95%/T95 mixed tocopherol vitamin E oil too.  Or mix in 1% for the  50%/T50 oil.
  
• You may use both saw palmetto and mint (see substitutions section for amount).  Or reishi in place of saw palmetto and/or white peony in place of mint.
  

Foods for Body Enhancement

Why

Foods contain a much wider range of nutrients than you can find in any supplement.  Many hair, skin, nail, vein, acne, weight loss, mood, HGH, energy, youth, etc., etc. supplements contain just part of the nutrients below.  By getting these nutrients from whole food you get both a more complete and effective solution, and you tackle all of these issues at the same time.  Additionally these nutrients are tools and fuel to enable your body perform better, whether for a workout or to better respond to herbs.

Many people think they eat healthy but actually aren't getting all the nutrition they need.  Those on a high protein diet in particular may think that it is healthy but they are often starving themselves not only for calories but also several nutrients.  You can verify that the items in the recipe below cover your nutrient requirements by checking the USDA nutrient database.  Also provided in these foods but not included on the USDA site are many other important nutrients such as antioxidants, beta/etc. tocopherols, and so on.  That's why a multi-vitamin is lacking several items you need.

Recipe

1/4 cup pumpkin seeds
1/4 cup sunflower seeds
1/4 cup almonds
6,000 mg fish oil, or 2lbs. salmon per week, or more of other seafood
3,000 mg lecithin, or a half dozen whole eggs (including yolk) per week
2,000 iu vitamin D, or a slight sun tan
4 tsp rice bran
1/2 an orange, or more of other fresh raw produce
A pinch or so of kelp each week on food (get a shaker for a 6-24 month supply)

Soak the 3 seeds for at least 4 hours, or overnight.  Rinse and snack on.  Take or eat remaining items, with liquid if needed.  These are heavy and fibrous foods.  When first starting use much less, such as 1/4 as much, until your stomach is accustomed to them.  Otherwise you could get digestive issues.

Try it out for at least 2 months, sometimes 6 months, before you expect to see results.  It takes a couple months to replenish your body's stores of these nutrients so that they start working, and if you need them to build something such as your breasts or butt then that could take additional time.

Herb Substitutions

• Shatavari: An equal amount of 50% saponin fenugreek extract may be used in place of shatavari.  You may use a 4:1 wild yam or goat's rue extract, but it may take 5 times as much wild yam and up to 10 times as much goat's rue.  If using goat's rue extract it should not go beyond 6,000 mg 4:1 extract.  Beyond that you should use a different herb instead.  If you find a 10:1 extract, it would require about 3 times as much wild yam or 6 times as much goat's rue, and you should not go beyond the 3600 mg 10:1 goat's rue extract.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: You may replace with 2-10g dry mint, 30g fresh mint (it's super easy to grow), reishi or white peony.  I don't know how much reishi or white peony.
  
• Flax seeds: 100 mg PM, 1,200 mg hops, soy isoflavones (typically a capsule or two).
  
• Vitex: 1/16-1/8 tsp progesterone cream.
  
• PM, PC: 250 mg Bovine ovary may replace about 100 mg PM and 1/8 tsp PC.  More might replace more, but many women have difficulty tolerating this.  See also substitutions for flax seeds and vitex (including 1 tbsp. flax seeds and 1 capsule vitex)
  

Hi surferjoe2007, 

Thanks a lot for your informative posts. I had some doubts regarding the supplements as in the Option 2 program you have enlisted here. I am a 26 year old, pear shaped Indian. I am a full A cup, and wanted to go with the second program.  

In my first trial of NBE, I only took 100g of PM for ~20 days and my cycle got delayed due to which I got scared and stopped it. Also I drank fenugreek water from which I experienced constipation. In view of these two things, can I skip the shatavari and PM from the Option 2 program and only take progesterone cream and saw palmetto? I saw in one of your replies that if fenugreek has caused some issue, then skipping shatavari would also be good. Here in India, I have access to shatavari tablets with only 20% saponins(https://www.1mg.com/otc/inlife-shatavari...gJE0_D_BwE). I have started regular massage since two weeks but wanted to finalise on the supplements to take.


Your suggestions would be really helpful!

Since you are A cup and pear shape it is a good idea to use low herbs for a while.   Use 100% of the foods.  Yes leaving out the PM for now is also a good idea.  The main related issue with fenugreek and shatavari is that both are bad for those with low blood sugar.  They also have similar effects on NBE.  But stomach problems are common mostly from whole fenugreek herb.  An extract is unlikely to have the same digestive problems, and a shatavari extract is even less likely to cause stomach problems.

The 20% saponin tablets are perfectly fine.  You simply use 2.5 times as much to match 50% saponin capsules.

Hi 
do you have any alternative to rice bran. Because many brands contains poisonous elements like Arsenic!! 

Thanks in advance

The arsenic in rice and rice bran isn't significant.  That's from scare articles.  Arsenic is in all foods including all brands of rice, though rice has more than other foods.

Rice contains about twice as much as other foods.   But if for example 10% of your diet is rice that's only a 10% increase in your overall arsenic consumption.  Arsenic is everywhere, unfortunately, due to old pesticides that are now banned.  The amount is still far below the safe limit.  Extremely strict amounts used by some articles would also mean you have too much arsenic no matter what you eat.

Rice bran is one of the most nutritious foods in the world, so it is likely the benefits greatly outweigh the minor to insignificant risks.  Among other things it has the highest amount of protective antioxidants compared to almost anything else, which are great for eliminating heavy metals such as arsenic.

Rice from California, India or Pakistan has a little less arsenic so you can get them if possible.  But I wouldn't worry too much.  It takes 130g rice bran a day to reach the WHO recommended safe limit of arsenic, though like I said other foods can contribute too.  4 tsp is 18g.

Thanks so much. This sounds great. I checked nutrition comparison between rice ban and oat ban, rice ban is more good!!

[Bonny]

Hi Joe
Is fenuside and saponin, one and the same?  Not alot of info out there thought you may know?
Thanks

[surferjoe2007]

Hi Joe
Is fenuside and saponin, one and the same?  Not alot of info out there thought you may know?
Thanks

Fenuside means fenugreek saponin.  Yes it's the same thing.  Likewise there is "shatavarin" for shatavari saponin.