[Isabelle]

You're welcome eva and karen,

Goat's rue is for the whole cycle, except if you're beginning to miss ovulations. Then skip it in the two days before ovulation. There is a peak in Luteinizing Hormone (LH) two days before ovulation. That peak triggers the ovulation. The prolactin from goat's rue suppresses LH.

Buy the pound: the swelling is great fun for play. The higher the dose, the more swelling. And it doesn't last more than a couple of hours. Sometimes, I'm surprised how fast I used up my stock of goat's rue

You can ramp up. Technically, you can't stall on those herbs. I don't expect a lot of growing pains or even tingles from them either. Just a bit from the swelling. So you may have to follow the program blindly, until you start measuring a difference in four months.

[karen]

Isabelle, (and all)

Found this paper this AM .... looks like lots of info specifically relating to "Menohop" later in the text

http://www.usahops.org/userfiles/file/He...%20HGA.pdf

Karen

[lostacres6]

Pansy Mae,
I bought powdered Hops, FG & Oatstraw from Starwest Botanicals. All are in 1 lb. packages. I have no idea what their strenghts are per tsp. so I hesitate to use them. In one of your earlier threads you said to buy a scale & measure the herbs out. How would this tell me how many milligrams are in 1 tsp.? I asked Eve M since she took powdered Hops & she said 1 tsp. = 300 mg. But someone else on this forum said 1 tsp. = 1200 mg. I'm very confused.
Thanks for shedding any light on this question.

[Pansy-Mae]

Pansy Mae,
I bought powdered Hops, FG & Oatstraw from Starwest Botanicals. All are in 1 lb. packages. I have no idea what their strenghts are per tsp. so I hesitate to use them. In one of your earlier threads you said to buy a scale & measure the herbs out. How would this tell me how many milligrams are in 1 tsp.? I asked Eve M since she took powdered Hops & she said 1 tsp. = 300 mg. But someone else on this forum said 1 tsp. = 1200 mg. I'm very confused.
Thanks for shedding any light on this question.

I honestly don't want to sound patronising, but you simply take a tsp and put one spoonful of hops, or FG, or oats, on the scales and see how much it weighs.
Without knowing which posts from others you are talking about, I can't be certain what they are talking about, but one spoon of hops will weigh a different amount to, say, one spoonful of FG...and even for each individual product it may depend to some extent on how finely it is powdered.
However I don't personally think you need to worry too much about precise weights of any of this stuff.

[Isabelle]

Thank you karen and Pansy Mae,

On sheet 5 of that presentation, I see the first mention in a scientific document of traditional NBE use of hops

The L-arginine stock will last for four more days. I think it added to my growth, but I can't wait to stop the experiment and go at least a few weeks without. I binged on ice cream again yesterday. Those cravings weren't there before the L-arginine experiment, and I hope they will be over when I stop the L-arginine.

It's a good libido and ED supplement. This one combines an NBE dose of L-arginine with triple doses of vitamins B6 and B12 and folic acid:
http://dietarysupplements.nlm.nih.gov/dietary/detail.jsp?contain=14003156&name=Natrol+L-Arginine+3000+mg&pageD=brand
Vitamin B6 is sedative above 10 mg. Why is there 30 mg a day in an ED supplement

After stopping the L-arginine for long enough to notice a difference, I want to stop black seed too. But once the experiment lasted long enough, I want to start that up again. Just need to keep slimming my waist.

[Lenneth]

Hi Isabelle!

wow, can hardly believe I read all 124 pages of this, talk about information overload hehe.

I have a question if you don't mind.

[Biological Male Related]

My Goals

Grow a nice pair of Breasts
Find a way to be rid of unwanted body hair(chest and back mostly).
sooner or later Feminize the shape and size of my Hips, waist and Rear

I Currently take the Following

PM 2000mg/day (varying dose throughout the day with the high dose before bed and planning to ramp up to around 3000mg with random variation in dose to keep my system guessing)
SP 3000mg 2x per day
FG 1200mg before bed
Calcium 2000mg 3x per day (taken with each PM dose)
PABA 1000mg once a day (usualy in the morning)

all with a massage with Vitamin E enriched cocoa butter cream 1-2 times per day, and 3-4 cups of spearmint tea.

Used to take GABA untill I found out it is a Prolactin Inhibitor (what is a good alternative for HGH Production?)

Would like to know of the best ways to Increase Prolactin, I have tried to find both Hops and GR locally with no success (seems our Herbal stores are poorly stocked on all but the most commonly used herbs)
(I do still have one store to check however)

Is GR the Best to use for Prolactin? and what are the next best to use.

Also, After reading this I am considering Maca, but the only store that has it only has 525mg gelcaps at $12 per bottle of 100...

I'm still somewhat new and trying to wrap my head around some things so please ignore any stupid comments or questions I might post

Thanks!

[karen]

Discussion about "Stalling"

Isabelle,

My mind is always going somewhere thinking about something. And since I am on TRT I am always "reading between the lines" about stalling since, in my case, stalling doesn't appear to be an issue.

Well I got to thinking about "stalling" in general and how it comes into play with those that are not undergoing any form of HRT.

So bascially if the "cumulative" levels of sex hormones reach a higher than normal level your body "adjusts" by cutting back on it's own production. It likes to keep levels within "tolerance" so to say. So, I think, the typical plan is to keep the "total levels" just below that point where your body starts to cut back production. To further complicate it there are hormones that don't "aide" in NBE that are still part of the "total number" so you need to watch those too and make sure they aren't causing a "regulation".

Well in my case ... which we have talked about ... I use a "prescribed" product called Testim to supplement my low testosterone levels. The daily use of Testim causes "my body" to shut down production of it's own Testosterone (lowers LH) ... the "control" part (LH/FSH) no longer comes into play.

So here's where the wheels starting turning ....

Let's talk about someone NOT undergoing HRT ... as they increase doses of their herbs they get closer and closer to that "LINE" ... the line where the body "cuts back" on it's own production. OK ... so now you hit that line ... and your body says "WHOA" ... so now you stop (or cut back) producing "Pregnenolone" and all of the associated hormones. If you
were to increase your herbs, to compensate for your body cutting back, why can't you "get past" stalling? If you didn't increase your Herbs, then you would stall, but it seems that increasing them would almost put you into a HRT Program ... meaning supplying your own.

What do you think?

Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Lenneth,

There are no stupid questions or comments. I thought I knew enough to take the plunge ten years ago. But even now, not a month goes by without a new publication that makes my views totally obsolete.

For HGH, I'm testing L-arginine at the moment. Still not sure if it would do anything without the black seed I started taking two weeks earlier. Even if it does help, I wouldn't take a HGH supplement for longer than a couple of months a year. It's the reason why some body builders grow Frankenstein foreheads and big ears. In men, these things keep growing forever, as long as there is enough HGH around. Estrogens and hops increase HGH locally, in the breasts. HGH then increases growth factors. So I don't know if continuous HGH supplementation to the whole body is wise. I tried it in spring to start the growth season early. I may pick it up again in fall.

All the breast feeding herbs increase prolactin. Fenugreek and black seed and goat's rue improve insulin sensitivity too, which slims the waist over time. Fenugreek also increases progesterone. Fennel and licorice contain phyto-progestins. Licorice also contains phyto-estrogens and anti-androgens. I don't even know the side effects of dill, aniseed, caraway seed, and all the other nursing herbs. Ask your local herbs shops what nursing herbs they have, and work from there.

I use maca for the depression from hops. You take PM, so you'll not become depressed. Maca improves libido, but so does zinc or oats. The amount of SP you take will grow your thighs. You are taking twice as much as anyone needs. Only if your butt doesn't grow along with the thighs, I'd consider maca. Look for maca flour. Some herbs shops may have it listed as lepidium.

[Isabelle]

Hi karen,

In theory, that works. I even tried it once with maca, but that just has too many side effects at a high dose. The problems with operating a program above the stalling limit is that you have to supply everything, all the time. With TRT, the dose and frequency guidelines take care of timing. With herbs, one would have to calculate how much of which herb to take when and what for. For instance, hops once a day will do as an anti-androgen, but for the phyto-estrogens, it could help to take it more often.

I'm most worried about cortisol. Shutting down the LH control loop will stop production of cortisol. When it's needed, in case of stress or an inflammation, it has to be replaced with medication, e.g. prednisone. I'm just too lazy to check all symptoms every hour to supplement remedies my body can make all by itself.

It's different if the control loop doesn't work properly anyway, like yours, which, left by itself, would steer you towards low testosterone. For me, it's a matter of time, but when it does happen, I will probably do a rescue attempt first, with oats to decrease SHBG, before I give up the control loop.

Perimenopausal women do something similar to what you are doing. Early in menopause, the control loop becomes unstable, but women like Susan and Mel know how to read symptoms as cues to take herbs or supplements as needed. They show that it's possible to replace the control system by a conscious process. Ginie and shortcake know how to act fast on their symptoms too.

Even if it's not strictly necessary, it's always good to learn how to correct an imbalance on the spot. I have a feeling my own LH control loops does fairly well. I can increase FG if too much maca gives me insomnia. I keep FG just high enough to prevent ED. I keep hops low enough to stay ahead of depression and low libido. But on the whole, my doses are stable. I don't have to pull any breaks. Haven't used my emergency herbs for ages.

There's another control loop, that balances dopamine against prolactin. I'd like to understand that one better. It's relevant for NBE, certainly for PM users. There's not much to read about it on the forum, though. Let me know if you find something

[karen]

I spoke with my Endocrinologist about Cortisol ... way back when you and I had first talked about it ... this was his comment.

Cortisol is controlled by the ACTH feedback loop. And it is not "as" affected by TRT as LH and FSH are. He has not seen any "Low Cortisol" symptoms in any of his TRT patients ... even those that have been using it for years.

For whatever thats worth ... Who you gonna "trust", "Ghostbusters" (oh, thats right, that's who you gonna "call" )

Karen