[Lenneth]

Hi Lenneth,

There are no stupid questions or comments. I thought I knew enough to take the plunge ten years ago. But even now, not a month goes by without a new publication that makes my views totally obsolete.

For HGH, I'm testing L-arginine at the moment. Still not sure if it would do anything without the black seed I started taking two weeks earlier. Even if it does help, I wouldn't take a HGH supplement for longer than a couple of months a year. It's the reason why some body builders grow Frankenstein foreheads and big ears. In men, these things keep growing forever, as long as there is enough HGH around. Estrogens and hops increase HGH locally, in the breasts. HGH then increases growth factors. So I don't know if continuous HGH supplementation to the whole body is wise. I tried it in spring to start the growth season early. I may pick it up again in fall.

Thank you for that information, so HGH is not a "Necessity" in NBE then? good to know, and I certainly don't want the Frankenstein look.

All the breast feeding herbs increase prolactin. Fenugreek and black seed and goat's rue improve insulin sensitivity too, which slims the waist over time. Fenugreek also increases progesterone. Fennel and licorice contain phyto-progestins. Licorice also contains phyto-estrogens and anti-androgens. I don't even know the side effects of dill, aniseed, caraway seed, and all the other nursing herbs. Ask your local herbs shops what nursing herbs they have, and work from there.

doubt I will ask at the shops, (I don't care for their staff) but I will do some online research.

I use maca for the depression from hops. You take PM, so you'll not become depressed. Maca improves libido, but so does zinc or oats. The amount of SP you take will grow your thighs. You are taking twice as much as anyone needs. Only if your butt doesn't grow along with the thighs, I'd consider maca. Look for maca flour. Some herbs shops may have it listed as lepidium.

I did not know that about SP, Should I cut down my dose of SP or leave it where it is?
I do want the Thigh and butt growth, but not if the high dose might cause any problems.

Thanks Again!

[Isabelle]

Thank you karen,

I didn't know that. So in theory, someone can stall without rashes, pains, and aches. Good to know.

Hi Lenneth,

Any good NBE program that affects the estrogen receptors will start HGH production locally. So it's not a necessity, no. What it can do is provide some lift under a program that's just below the level where it achieves measurable success.

SP blocks an enzyme, 5α-reductase. Once all of it is blocked, taking more SP will not reduce DHT any further. Because there are different types of 5α-reductase, adding another inhibitor, like your spearmint tea, is more effective then.

But it may still double the growth on your thighs of course. I don't really know if that is a consequence of DHT or of another effect of SP. You had a hunch to use a high dose. Instincts are usually right in this. What I would do is experiments of a few weeks each with different doses, and measure your thighs.

[Lenneth]

But it may still double the growth on your thighs of course. I don't really know if that is a consequence of DHT or of another effect of SP. You had a hunch to use a high dose. Instincts are usually right in this. What I would do is experiments of a few weeks each with different doses, and measure your thighs.

Thanks, and I will.

[Pansy-Mae]

Discussion about "Stalling"



Let's talk about someone NOT undergoing HRT ... as they increase doses of their herbs they get closer and closer to that "LINE" ... the line where the body "cuts back" on it's own production. OK ... so now you hit that line ... and your body says "WHOA" ... so now you stop (or cut back) producing "Pregnenolone" and all of the associated hormones. If you
were to increase your herbs, to compensate for your body cutting back, why can't you "get past" stalling? If you didn't increase your Herbs, then you would stall, but it seems that increasing them would almost put you into a HRT Program ... meaning supplying your own.

What do you think?

Karen

Hi Karen,
Funnily enough, I've been thinking along very similar lines recently, trying to get my head around the dichotomy of us apparently in constant danger of activating the feedback loop and stalling, and TS's on HRT who take massively more synthetic estrogens than we do phyto-estrogens and ASFAIK, just grow!!

I like Isabelle's answer subsequently, and I appreciate her concerns, but I think I'm going to have to give 'overdose' a try, for a while at least. I have to find some way of kicking past my impasse situation. I don't honestly know if I've stalled as such, but I do know I haven't grown any in almost 12 months. I still get aches and pains and itches, but it doesn't get anywhere. I also get a kind of burning/stretching sensation most mornings and I was feeling it earlier and thinking that it feels as though they want to grow but something is holding them back, like waiting for a balloon full of water to burst as you hold it on a tap. I'm sure I just have to find the trigger, maybe this it, I've tried pretty much everything else I can think of.

[karen]

Hi Karen,
Funnily enough, I've been thinking along very similar lines recently, trying to get my head around the dichotomy of us apparently in constant danger of activating the feedback loop and stalling, and TS's on HRT who take massively more synthetic estrogens than we do phyto-estrogens and ASFAIK, just grow!!

Hi Pansy-Mae,

I think the hard part is going to be how to supply all of your own. It's REAL EASY for me. With "prescribed" Testosterone I can add what ever amount of pure testoterone to my system that I want. I have a scale that measures in "grains" ... I can measure out any amount that I want plus I have enough historical blood tests to know how much puts me at what levels (Total T, Free T, Estradiol, DHT, LH and Progesterone) If you take enough herbs to hit that "level", lowering LH and your body stops producing Testosterone, the need for a DHT Blocker goes away cause there's nothing to convert. And if you can then get enough phtyo-estrogens plus whatever else you might need (I'll defer to Isabelle on that one) AND as long as you're not taking anything at such a high level that it could do harm, then it seems feasible.

I DO THINK it's a balancing act AND IMHO I wouldn't just rely on "symptoms" to monitor what's going on in my body. There's lots of balancing acts going on that can effect the Thyroid and Adrenals not to forget the liver ... things that you don't want to screw up just to grow boobies .... you don't get to enjoy them if you kill yourself growing them BUT "HEY" that's only my opinion.

Karen

[Pansy-Mae]

Karen,
You are of course exactly right with all that you say and no I don't have the track record that you have to work on. However, simplifying what is obviously a very complicated bio-chemical system, my thoughts are running this way:
1) My typical PM dose is an average of 2000mg a day.
2) I have reason to believe that at 1000mg and certainly at only 500mg, I noticeably lose volume within about 2 weeks.
3) At 3000mg I get headaches, although I'm a lot less sensitive at that than I was to begin with.
4) After a year at average 2000mg I have seen no further growth. Now it could be that I have already stalled, but other than lack of growth, I've never understood how you define being in a stall. If I still have all the pains, itches, tenderness and soreness can I really be stalled? -plus, at 1000mg the pains etc do noticeably diminish in only a couple of days.

Conclusion from all this is that 2000mg has been 'my' dose (that's what I was taking when I did grow), and 1000 -1500mg is probably my maintenance dose ( if I was as large as I wanted to be!). 3000mg is 'too much' ( or maybe it isn't but it is certainly a lot higher than most people think is wise, although I've never seen anyone actually say why it is unwise!)) and therefore presumably is also either enough to actually induce a stall, or just possibly I do need that extra to take me further if I can deal with the headaches. Now on that basis, the headaches are generally thought to be estrogen dominance symptoms and Isabelle believes that these can be dealt with by taking FG.

So, whether I induce a stall and then go beyond, or simply take 3000mg a day for long enough to kick-start, it seems that I am talking myself into upping my PM dose!!

Please feel free to tell me if I'm talking nonsense, I may be to close to it to see the blindingly obvious!

[Isabelle]

Hi karen and Pansy Mae,

I certainly think 3,000 mg PM with FG is possible. Above 3,000 mg, I remember posts by Chrissiegirl. She reported that doses of 8,000 or 9,000 mg got her growing again. I don't remember whether that was immediately, or after enough time to get out of a stall.

[Pansy-Mae]

Hi karen and Pansy Mae,

I certainly think 3,000 mg PM with FG is possible. Above 3,000 mg, I remember posts by Chrissiegirl. She reported that doses of 8,000 or 9,000 mg got her growing again. I don't remember whether that was immediately, or after enough time to get out of a stall.

Yes, I remember her saying 8000mg, but then a bit later she said 3000mg and I'm not sure if the 8000mg wasn't a typo when she was posting late at night after a bottle of wine or two??

To begin with, her high doses were after she was off PM for 6 weeks due to illness as I remember. Then later I got the impression she was up there more or less permanently, but I could be wrong about that.

However I think I'm going to up my average to 2500/3000 mg and see if that does anything, I really do think 8000mg is too much and I'm sure my bank balance would agree!

[karen]

3) At 3000mg I get headaches, although I'm a lot less sensitive at that than I was to begin with.

I see that Isabelle said "WITH Fenugreek" ....

I'm thinking the FG is to help with Estrogen Dominance which may be causing the headache ... I've got to believe that you're zapping yourself with high levels of something in the "estrogen family" with that amount of PM and Estrogen Dominance could certainly be expected.

I add ... this is ALL speculation and/or logical reasoning on my part. I haven't seen anything in print.

Karen

[Pansy-Mae]

3) At 3000mg I get headaches, although I'm a lot less sensitive at that than I was to begin with.

I see that Isabelle said "WITH Fenugreek" ....

I'm thinking the FG is to help with Estrogen Dominance which may be causing the headache ... I've got to believe that you're zapping yourself with high levels of something in the "estrogen family" with that amount of PM and Estrogen Dominance could certainly be expected.

I add ... this is ALL speculation and/or logical reasoning on my part. I haven't seen anything in print.

Karen

Oh yes, that's absolutely right, sorry, I should have been clearer. The headaches are definitely estrogen dom symptoms. Isabelle knows that I know that, which is probably why she didn't elaborate either.

Pansy Mae