[Rosance]

Isabelle, what are the withdrawal symptoms you know of for PM? Does the person experience these symptoms while cycling PM?

[Isabelle]

Hi Rosance,

In women, the luteal phase is very much as usual. But in long cycles, days 30-42 are a combination of prolonged Pre-Menstrual Tension, morning sickness (nausea), and lots of worrying: missed a period. Am I pregnant? OMG I do feel like I'm pregnant. I need a test. I need PM. But is it OK to start taking it now? And what if my period does come? etc. etc.

The male withdrawal symptoms have been described by karen:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10023
and by sfem:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10023&pid=37675#pid37675
and bryony:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10643
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10658
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10670
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10676
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10683
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10691
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10696

[Rosance]

Haha I know what you mean when referring to the female symptoms. However, I experienced something different. I took my last luteal phase off of everything and just used up my milk thistle product and drank a tablespoonful of olive oil two days in a row followed by an orange (recommended by my mom) and this period was overwhelming. I did not take PM this folicullar phase either. My period was heavy, and a bit longer, like by a day. I literally felt like I got anemia. I still have to get some blood work done. I was weak, couldn't sleep, fatigue (super lazy), moody, and worst of all, I felt like I was going to faint in any minute. I also had headaches. It was the worst period I had ever had and it was the first time without any herbs at all. I believe that it could not have been no PM on its own. I think that fenugreek helps greatly with the heaviness of my periods. I do not know clearly what it could have been, all I know is that I feel better with herbs. I had forgotten how heavy my periods actually are. But this time, I actually felt like fainting! Oh my...

[karen]

Can anyone help me out with a Brand of SP to buy.

I'm looking for Standardized Saw Palmetto extract guaranteed to supply 85% to 95% fatty acids and plant sterols in Gel caps. I'd like 160 mg's AND 320 mg's caps ... that gives me the greatest flexibility in dosages. I'm not as concerned about "cheap" as much as I want "quality". And in the USA would be preferred.

There are so many brands .... I don't know which are the most reliable.

Karen

[Isabelle]

Oww Rosance,

Poor thing

How long did you continue milk thistle? It's a phyto-estrogen. Stopping fenugreek, together with the natural drop in progesterone on day 25, may have triggered estrogen dominance. On top of that, fenugreek affects blood sugar and blood pressure, both ways, depending on timing. If you stop it, you may have lower blood pressure than before you started it. You will probably have to supplement iron too now, to get going again.

And karen,

I don't know a good brand of SP. Pansy Mae used SP for quite some time. The plant is indigenous to the southeast. I'd pick a manufacturer who is based there. Oh well, knowing me, I'd find out who sells dried berries so you can see, smell, and feel them and compare if a new batch or another source is different

[karen]

I don't know a good brand of SP.

I went with Nature's Way Standardized 160 mg Gelcaps.

I found a post of yours ....

You suggested 600 mg of SP extract a day .... so adjusted for our weights I’d go with 1 - 320mg capsule 3 times daily (or 2 – 160mg Capsules 3 times daily).

Karen

[Pansy-Mae]

I don't know a good brand of SP. Pansy Mae used SP for quite some time.

I'm in the UK and used the Holland & Barret capsules - 450mg powdered berries, manufactured in the USA. Max recommended daily dose 4 x 450mg
That's all I can tell you I'm afraid.

Then again, I've never believed that they did anything at all for me, but that could be age or other body chemistry factors.

[karen]

I'm in the UK and used the Holland & Barret capsules - 450mg powdered berries, manufactured in the USA. Max recommended daily dose 4 x 450mg
That's all I can tell you I'm afraid.

Then again, I've never believed that they did anything at all for me, but that could be age or other body chemistry factors.

From what I have been reading there is a big difference in potency when comparing the Powered berries and the standardized extract. NBE dosage of the berries is like 3000 mg per day while standardized extract is like 600 mg per day. So your dosage was somewhat low. Maybe that played a part in what you experienced.

Karen

[Isabelle]

I'm looking for literature on the dose of oats that levels out the increase of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) with age. There's not much:

Green oats (avena sativa) "combat" SHBG and increase LH:
http://staleycertified.com/wp-content/up...eashed.pdf

Oat bran has no effect on SHBG:
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.....2006.0005

Before I ever took hops, I knew from experience that oat flakes improve libido. The decrease of SHBG sets free dihydrotestosterone (DHT) too. I could try that again, since hops does not affect DHT that is released in this way. So maybe I can find the right oats dose from experiments.

The increase of SHBG with age is on wikipedia. There's plenty of literature on the increase of SHBG from flax. So it should be possible to get a better view on exactly how much oats I need. Too much can cause a stall: it contains lignans too.

Once I have the oats/flax balance as a back bone, I can add soy for more phyto-estrogens, spearmint tea as an anti-androgen, fenugreek for progesterone, and both fenugreek and black seed for prolactin and insulin sensitivity. Surfer Joe pointed out that the progesterone increase could be a result of the increase of prolactin. If that's true, I could drop the black seed and just use fenugreek, as long as I don't gain too much weight.

I already pointed out the advantages of a foods based program in cost and in availability, and in hiding the stash. I wouldn't have to worry about depression from hops any more. But then I could just try PM too.

[Isabelle]

Breakdown of program

Phyto-estrogens:
hops flowers (also called "cones" or "strobiles")
pueraria mirifica root
licorice tea (estrogen, progestin, anti-androgen, and increases prolactin)
red clover flowers (50/50 phyto-estrogen and phyto-progestin)
soy
shatavari tea
yellow dock
sheep sorrel
wild yam (not a phyto-estrogen, but blocks metabolism of estrone to 16α-hydroxyestrone)
fenugreek seeds contain little phyto-estrogens, but also increase natural estrogens a little because they contain diosgenin
milk thistle
blessed thistle
dandelion root and leaves

Fusarium, a fungus, makes zearalenone, a very estrogenic mycotoxin:
barley, oats, hops (can contain fusarium)
malt (certainly contains fusarium)
maize, wheat, buckwheat, rye (often contain fusarium)
Foods are checked for zearalenone nowadays. Anecdotal evidence from the past has influenced the composition of breast enhancement formulas.

Phyto-progestins:
licorice tea
fennel seed tea
red clover
yucca
thyme
oregano
fenugreek and wild yam contain diosgenin, which increases progesterone and prolactin

Anti-androgens:
hops cones
spearmint tea (peppermint is more estrogenic)
saw palmetto berry
stinging nettle root
pumpkin seed oil
borage seed oil
zinc < 80 mg
vitamin B6
azelaic acid (in rye, barley grass, whole grain cereals)
secoisolariciresinol diglycoside (SDG), the main lignan in flax (linseed)
β-sitosterol
Java tea (orthosiphon extract)
pygeum bark
wild yam and pueraria mirifica root (because they contains β-sitosterol)

Androgens:
oats (because it decreases SHBG, releasing free testosterone and dihydrotestosterone)
maca root increases estrogen and testosterone
citrus

To increase prolactin:
fenugreek seed
fennel seed
goat's rue (galega officinalis)
black seed (nigella sativa, black cumin)
basil
dill
caraway seed tea (carum carvi, wild cumin)
aniseed
blessed thistle
barley grass

Human Growth Hormone:
hops
fenugreek
barley grass
GABA
serotonin (= 5-HTP + Vitamin B6)
L-arginine
L-glutamine
L-tyrosine
bee pollen
L-dopa
high intensity exercise

Growth Factor:
deer velvet extract
glandular therapy (bovine ovary)
pig placenta
lamb placenta

vitamin B complex:
vitamin B6 2-10 mg
vitamin B12 50-80 µg

Folic acid 200-400 µg:
in vitamin B complex or multivitamin
spinach (preferably frozen), asparagus, broccoli, avocado, lettuce
beremeal

Vitamin C, D, E:
in multivitamin
vitamin C in rose hips
vitamin E in almonds

Zinc 12-35 mg:
seafood (oysters!), meat, chicken, dairy, oats
never skip a day: the body can't store zinc

Protein:
meat, chicken, fish, eggs
fortified shakes with milk protein powder
no soy: slows the thyroid (or take kelp and L-tyrosine with it)

Healthy fats:
borage oil (highest in GLA, prostaglandin precursor)
omega 3 (flaxseed oil, cold pressed = without lignans, chia seeds, no fish oil)
omega 6 can cause acne (GLA is an omega 6 fatty acid)
evening primrose oil contains less GLA than borage oil, makes androgen excess worse
coconot oil (saturated, can be used for for frying)

Butt:
maca root
aguaje

Waist hip ratio:
fenugreek seed
goat's rue (galega officinalis)
black seed (nigella sativa)
wild yam (hypoglycemic, hypolipidemic)
milk thistle

Grow hair nails lashes:
millet, apple core, oats (contain silicic acid)
horsetail, equisetum arvense, contains silicic acid
gelatin
MSM
collagen