[surferjoe2007]

Hey again, as you mentioned Ibutamoren and also have a thread on IGF I have another question popped up: in my country's articles it's higly advised to take it not every day but on 3/3, 4/4 etc regimen since they claim one gets used to the subtsance pretty fast and the effect stops. However, I havent really seen people mentioning it elsewhere, apart from general advice to cycle it eventually if you're using it long term. I believe you somewhat researched the topic so have you seen any significant scientific data to support the claim I read about (the necessity to have days-off every 3 days or so)? I wonder if it's just misinformation based on a single "study" or smth..
PS. I saw people mentioning strong cravings as a side effect, I've been taking it for 5 days so far and dont experience it at all, I wonder if it means it's not working or that my subtsance is bad.

Not many have tried it for NBE yet.  You may want to ask the couple of forum members that have .  I think MissMadScientist is one.  You can also find lots of info in bodybuilding forums, though it's primarily for muscle gain and workout recovery.  I think there was a one year study on it and I assume they took it every day.  They are studying it more for the regenerative youthful properties, since it increases both growth and regeneration of old tissue.  Probably muscles, joints, breasts, brain, heart, everything.  Extra cell replication does carry a small increase in cancer risk though, especially for the elderly.  So while the 1 year study found hardly any risk, who knows what more study will find, and this still is a drug that has not yet been approved and is illegal for human consumption.  Do what you do as your own decision and at your own risk.

Cravings are different for different people.  You could check bodybuilding forums.  It could depend on the dose, and it could also take more days to set in.  Though after several more days the sensation may lighten too.  Mk-677 causes release of ghrelin, the hunger hormone.  So hunger is more of the main effect than a side effect.  But ghrelin also leads to the immediate use of all that ingested food which causes all the growth/regeneration effects, boosted metabolism and increased growth hormone.  If anything on its own it causes weight loss rather than weight gain, unless you overeat to match.  But the feeling of hunger could be strong or weak for different people.  And most of the fakes boost hunger as much or more too, as part of their trickery.  There's an anabolic steroid that causes a huge appetite increase for example.  I'm not sure how common or uncommon fakes are now though, especially as mk-677 gets cheaper.

[srhsera]

Here is an extremely basic, cheap yet highly effective example program with links to all products:

1 per day, then soon 2 per day: http://www.amazon.com/Shatavari-Extract-...003NZWI36/
1 per day: http://www.amazon.com/Palmetto-Extract-N...001B7LYAQ/
1 per day: http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Way-Vitex-...001E101L2/
1 per day: http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Way-Clover...000Z95EZC/

Again those who aren't at least a full A cup should strongly consider good nutrition first.  And nutrition is nice for everyone else too.  50-100 mg PM would be cheaper than red clover but I couldn't find capsules with so little so you'd have to carefully measure out tiny amounts of powder.

Hi Joe! May i know if  progesterone cream is recommended while still taking vitex? 

[surferjoe2007]

Here is an extremely basic, cheap yet highly effective example program with links to all products:

1 per day, then soon 2 per day: http://www.amazon.com/Shatavari-Extract-...003NZWI36/
1 per day: http://www.amazon.com/Palmetto-Extract-N...001B7LYAQ/
1 per day: http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Way-Vitex-...001E101L2/
1 per day: http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Way-Clover...000Z95EZC/

Again those who aren't at least a full A cup should strongly consider good nutrition first.  And nutrition is nice for everyone else too.  50-100 mg PM would be cheaper than red clover but I couldn't find capsules with so little so you'd have to carefully measure out tiny amounts of powder.

Hi Joe! May i know if  progesterone cream is recommended while still taking vitex? 

You can if you like.  Keep in mind progesterone cream has a similar effect to vitex except it is much stronger.

[surferjoe2007]

Latest Info

Simple NBE Program

Alternate Foods for Body Enhancement

You may replace some of the "Foods for Body Enhancement" with advantages and disadvantages.  First I'll start with the ideal replacements:

Ideal Replacements for Even Better Foods
Add: 3/4 lb. escarole, endive, cilantro, watercress, spinach and/or broccoli.
Replaces: 1/4 cup pumpkin seeds, 1/4 cup sunflower seeds, 1/4 cup almonds, half of the fish oil/salmon, orange/fresh raw produce
Advantages: The omega 6 fatty acids in the nuts are difficult to balance.  Even the high amount of fish fats aren't ideal.  Eliminating the nuts solves this problem, and reduces the minimum fish fat needed.  You may still take extra if you want, but it isn't essential.  This way is also higher in phytonutrients like flavanoids (especially the cilantro), which may have uncertain benefits beyond just getting vitamins and minerals.  Escarole and endive even contain prebiotics, spinach is high in mixed antioxidants and ALA essential fatty acids and broccoli contains diindolylmethane ("DIM"), the anti-"bad" estrogen substance.  This version also has way less calories.
Disadvantages: That's a lot of produce.  Leafy produce is light so you're looking at a huge salad bowl, or many smaller bowls.  Escarole and endive are pleasant to eat with a nice dressing but expensive and hard to find.  Consider growing your own.  The other veggies are cheaper but harder to eat a large amount due to bitterness.  Selecting multiple different veggies on the list also works and may be easier to eat too.  Light cooking is fine and may make it easier to eat spinach and broccoli.  Spinach becomes less bitter if cooked in dairy.

Fast Replacement
Add: Mix equal parts spirulina powder, brewer's yeast powder and rice bran. Blend 1/4 cup in a glass of juice with a blender, twice a day.  When first starting use only a spoonful, then gradually increase to the full amount as you get used to it.  Eat 1 white button mushroom a day, or any other mushroom.
Replaces: 1/4 cup pumpkin seeds, 1/4 cup almonds.
Advantages: Faster as you can blend it into a drink, less omega 6s but still some, so fatty acid balance is a little better though you still need just as much fish fat.
Disadvantages: Not tasty, hard to drink.
Other: This is taken from my first post in this thread.  I've since moved on to the tastier version both in my recommendations and for myself.  I often forget what's in it so I apologize if I told anyone anything wrong about it off the top of my head.  The original version is correct.

Combos
You may mix and match all 3 versions (Nuts, ideal or fast), however you please.  For example half of one and half of another.  Or use one on one day and another on another day.

General NBE Info (This Thread)

[surferjoe2007]

Risky Methods

I thought I’d go over methods that sometimes come up but warrant caution.

Dangerous methods.
Do not try without huge amounts of research & caution, and probably not even then:
- Saline injection.  Basically a DIY vacation boob job.  Risk of severe infection when not done by a professional.  With extreme precautions it could technically be done safely for a small or huge temporary increase for up to a day.  Cannot be done daily.  May look balloony.
- Glucose aka dextrose injections.  Similar to saline injections except it also causes some permanent growth as the sugar triggers a desperate huge insulin spike and get stored as fat.  May cause huge growth, but excessive sugar can put you in a diabetic coma.  Which is why the body floods in so much i insulin to rescue itself.  Even with extreme care to not put yourself into a coma, there are unknown long term consequences.  There are guesses that all that insulin is horrible for your diabetes risk.  More info on this and saline exists in other forums where some people try them (and some of them get badly hurt too).  IMO with these unknowns just don’t ever use glucose aka dextrose even with precautions.
- Depo Provera.  Estrogen + progesterone is the main way to cause growth, and this very high dose progestin plus a strong phytoestrogen like PM plus removing your cycle causes a large amount of growth very rapidly.  Temporarily and quickly reaching a limit.  Works for most not all.  Even when it works the side effects tend to be annoying and women tend to take a break and shrink right back down during the break.  Especially if they continue on depo without PM, the imbalance speeds shrinking.  As high dose birth control depo is one of the riskiest birth controls.  If you’re already on depo anyway then this might be worth a shot, but if possible you should instead get off of depo and try a safer birth control.

Deadly methods
Do not try ever:
- Injecting anything “inert”.  I’m not just talking about silicone.  Before silicone they did vaseline injections.  Injecting seemingly harmless and nontoxic gels like polyacrylamide have the same effect.  No matter what the inert material and even if some do it safely for years.  Eventually with bad luck it could creep into a blood vessel and cause a blockage, similar to a heart attack.  Can cause death.
- Similarly I would never apply vaseline even externally.  Oily substances can soak in, though thicker ones like vaseline don’t absorb as well.  So assuming vaseline isn’t just a harmless but ineffective hoax and it really does soak in, it could likewise be deadly if used enough.  I wouldn’t worry about normal uses of vaseline though, since it is inert and so little if any gets in.
- (Probably/hopefully not deadly, but related to the above) There are interesting historical cover ups on medically prescribed injectable substances right up through 1994.  Not testing for very long term effects, dismissing negative effects as individual sensitivity when they do pop up, and once finally banned moving on to a new substance and starting the cycle all over.  Similar things are happening with implants.  It is now finally medically accepted that some individuals are very sensitive to implants and get severely ill from them, whereas this was laughed at before.  And there is heavy industry pressure to dismiss or cover up other complaints.  Considering how recently implants became widespread and how recently silicone injections were banned (1994), it may be prudent to wait another decade.  In the past bans took decades.  Hopefully implants are mostly safe or at least safe enough, but who knows given the lack of long term thorough testing and lack of open reporting and recording of illness.  Remember those scary silicone injections used to be the medically prescribed norm.  People all over the world who were doing it left and right and most were fine for a while.  Hopefully given the larger number of people that use implants and seemingly less severe complaints they’re not as bad.  But there is also a lot of well known cover up that we simply let happen.
- Mega-dosing on estrogen and progesterone/progestin is a great way to dramatically increase your risk of breast cancer.  Many studies on phytoestrogens reducing the risk of breast cancer were done because the real thing is so incredibly dangerous if the dose is not carefully controlled.  Researchers typically get pleasantly relieved that not only does the phytoestrogen not increase cancer risk, it decreases it.  Usually, not always.  Main point is don’t get lulled into a false sense of security and mess with real hormones as you would herbs.  Careless dosing can often give you cancer.  Frequently.  People talk about it happening to them in other forums.  Not a nebulous or rare if ever theoretical risk like herbs.  No offense meant to those taking properly prescribed and dosed hormones like birth control.  Though even then try for the minimum dose.  A dose low enough to be relatively safe also tends to lead to little growth, and then only in some.

One last grey area
- mk-677.  At least a couple forum members have used it and seem to like it.  I have suggested reading about it a few times.  A 1 year study show it is probably very safe.  But there are theoretical long term cancer risks, especially among the elderly.  Though even then the elderly are the main future marketing targets for its youthful benefits like energy, metabolism and healing/recovery.  It’s also still being studied and not yet legal to prescribe nor use on humans outside of studies.  But there is little effort from authorities to actually control its use as they have their hands full with more dangerous things.  So basically there are scarier substances but you may want to steer clear.  The forum users who tried it said it might have helped a little in addition to the growth they got from other things.

[Polly]

Hi surferjoe, hope you are well and safe in this crazy time! Thank you so much for all this information! It really makes sense and confirms my thoughts about nutrition.

Until the age of 18 I have mainly eaten not nutritious foods due to culture and circumstances. White rice, white bread, meat... a lot of processed food and not often vegetables, fruit and fish. Rarely/never beans or nuts. At age 14 I got my first period and my cycle has never been regular and always longer than 35 days. Didn't have acne only one pimple in three months or something. Have no curves at all, no hips, butt, breasts are like aaa. (Btw I eat much but I always have been thin and when I gain weight it first goes all to my cheeks/jaw and then belly. )

At the age of 18 I found breastnexus (YAY!) and began changing some of my nutrition and have tried some programs. But no luck. I'm so disappointed in the way I've eaten in the past. Now I'm 22. Last august I started eating only 'healthy'; brown rice, brown bread, meat, fish (minimum 2x week), olives, greek yoghurt, fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds, water, spearmint and green tea. The first cycle I got strong growing pain in my breasts for 10 days straight around 17 days before my period. Never felt this before and for such a long time!!! And a cycle of 32 days... Never had a cycle this short. Then I got a very stressful period. The cycle thereafter was 31 days and thereafter 26 days but no growing pains and bad forehead, chin and upper lip acne... The cycles after these were back to around 38/39 days and acne and stress worsened. During this period it looked like I got more extreme hair growth in the beard and mustache area.

From the beginning of this month I have no stress anymore and started taking multivitamin daily as a supplement not replacement. But still fresh pimples mainly forehead and hair growth (which causes pimples in the beard and mustache area). Do you maybe have a clue why??

Also as you mentioned the nutrition you recommend is low calorie, but I don't want to lose weight I want to gain weight (in my body...). Would it be bad if besides all the nutrition you recommend also eat for example olives, greek yoghurt? Because you mention that if you have to much of somethings it may be hard to balance it

[Redjane2]

Hi Joe, you have a couple different recommendations through this post.  I guess the most recent one is the best cause it incorporates more research but wanted to get your input.

First Method:

MSM

50% saponin fenugreek or shatavari extract

saw palmetto

(optional)

PM

Vitex or PC

Second Method:

Shatavari (600mp- 1200mp)
Saw Palmetto (320mg)
Vitex (400mg)
Red Clover (400Mg)

Third Method:

Shatavari (600mg- 2400mg)
Saw Palmetto (320mg) 

Cycling PM and PC

The Shatavari and Saw Palmetto are consistent across all methods.

You've mentioned that the Vitex and PC have the same function but PC is stronger. So would Vitex be less effective? Would PC be more likely to cause issues like yeast infections?

I noticed Red Clover is only in method 2, is it still something you recommend?
Also what about MSM?

[koyasha]

Hi Joe.

Now that is a whole lot of information, but do you have any suggestions for someone who has tubular breasts? I feel like a lot of the things written about NBE don't apply to me because of the deformity.

[surferjoe2007]

Hi Joe.

Now that is a whole lot of information, but do you have any suggestions for someone who has tubular breasts? I feel like a lot of the things written about NBE don't apply to me because of the deformity.

If there is anything wrong I always say start with nutrition first.  Herbs or similar should be limited, especially stronger ones like PM,BO or hops.  PC is also strong but it may help, depending on hormonal levels.  A test would be better to confirm rather than possibly making a wrong guess.  Other herbs are milder and might be ok.

Massage and pumping are almost always harmless, unless done to the point of injury.

[koyasha]

Thank you, Joe.

I am taking Vitex, it is supposed to help with hormonal imbalances.