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Moon (or others) - NBE, what are we actually hoping to achieve hormonally?
October 16 2008 at 8:20 PM Louise (Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER

So I took the PM.uk powder for days 2-14 of my 28 day pill-regualted cycle. I was too lazy to measure the dose properly so I just looked at the size of the capsules, grabbed a teaspoon and took a guess (next month will try harder!). I have been getting a little spotty lately so not sure if the PM is having some sort of hormonal action or just preventing the pill from fixing my face (or that I've eaten too much chocolate). Possibly had a few aches but using a lot of suction so could be something to do with that.

I understand that it's a good idea to increase estrogen in the estrogen-dominated follicular phase and then stop for the progesterone-dominated luteal phase. Then question is should we be mimicking more closely the cycle diagram, e.g. taking 500mg 1x daily for days 1-3, 2x daily days 4-12, 3x daily day 13 and 4x daily day 14 then stop for days 15-28. Should I try to get hold of something like cyproterone or other progesterone supplement to take the rest of the time? Is the idea to exaggerate the normal hormonal cycle? What about prolactin, LH, FSH? If I'm using a lot of suction my prolactin may be quite high anyway.

Always interested to hear your opinions




Linn
(Login linn7880)
progesterone
October 17 2008, 1:46 PM

Hi Louise!

It is an interesting question you have. I do not know but is maybe a good idea to mimic the cycle that way. Is it not what the japanese girls do? But when it comes to progesteron I would not have taken cyproterone. It is a medice is'nt it? I would rather use natural progesterone , I think that is much safer. The progesterone used in school medice is syntetic and not natural to the body. I think you will sucseed more with natural progesterone and that it is safer..



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Moon (or others) - NBE, what are we actually hoping to achieve hormonally?
October 17 2008, 2:06 PM

Hey Louise, sorry I can't be of much help, I think that such detailed theory of NBE is really hard to discuss. It's possible that breast growth is achieved throguh a still physiological exaggeration of the cycle, or that our cycle is so messed up we just achieve sth close to a normal cycle with herbs, or that some completely different unknown mechanisms of herbs are cruicial.

One thing that should be noted tho is that herbs may have effects on the body throguh other mechanisms that (the most known) hormonal. For example, vitex and SP both decrease testosterone, but there have been cases when they caused acne. Estrogenic herbs also sometimes cause acne which seems to depend more on the person than on the herb. It seems the most likely ''hormonal'' explanation would be simple competition - thus decreasing estrgen actions which in turn increases androgens. But then every person who stalled would have to develop acne. A survey of practical experience would have to be made to get even a likely hypothesis.

Other more complex dynamic and kinetic interactions between PM and androgen blockers in BCPs are basically unknown, as I don't think any study was ever made. You can avoid interaction on the level of absorption by not taking both at the same time. To assess interactions on the level of distribution in the body, elimination from the body or their final effects on tissue we would have to know their chemical formula - if it's similar they could have some common receptors. It would still be a wild guess tho.



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Moon (or others) - NBE, what are we actually hoping to achieve hormonally?
October 17 2008, 2:14 PM

About progesterone, there is no actual natural progesterone other than the one your body produces. There is nothing progesteronic about WY btw. There is also nothing directly harmful about synthetic progesterone, it all depends on the conditions, circumatnces and suitability of application. For example, a sythetic coumpound may be chemically identical to the endogenous one, but the difference would be in the administration - the body has subtle mechanisms that percieve when and how much of it your body needs, in artifical administration you just deliver a certain ammount in certain intervals.

And about whether or not it would be sensible to use some sort of progesteronic effector in the second part of the cycle... I'd be careful. Waxingmoon says that PC should only be used if you really have a significent progesterone deficiency and too much prog. can be dangerous. I was wondering if vitex could be used in second part of the cycle, but as it's a slow acting herb I wonder if it would work in that time at all.




Linn
(Login linn7880)
progesterone
October 17 2008, 3:26 PM


Hi Moon,

I thought the progesterone that is taken from wild yam and converted in the laboratory is identical to the progesterone produced by the body?
That is what Dr lee says in his book..But the progesterone in bcp is progestins that is taken from the urine of pregnant horses..just what I read.
The pharmacy industry will not use natural progesterone in bcp because they can not pattern it as they can with the one they make..Just what he wrote.



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Moon (or others) - NBE, what are we actually hoping to achieve hormonally?
October 17 2008, 4:36 PM

Oh, then I guess that's right. What I ment is that no extrenal progesterone is really natural as it's not produced by the body so the pattern of its administration is still very different to the parretn of endogenous progesterone release. And also that just because sth is synthetic doesn't necessarily mean it's less healthy. But I guess there is a reason progesterone is used in creams, not progestins. I thoguht that the reason progestins are used in the pill and not progesterone is because they have a longer half life and are more potent, thus they're appropriate for daily administration and can fit into a small pill, which I think wouldn't work with progesterone.



Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Moon (or others) - NBE, what are we actually hoping to achieve hormonally?
October 17 2008, 7:27 PM

Thanks Moon, I'll try to behave myself and stick to the instructions on the pack but if I don't see anything other than acne in a couple of months I'll probably start messing around. I'm not really interested in what's natural and what's not just what works and I have friends who are doctors so I can probably get stuff like that. Cyproterone's in Dianette (it's an antiandrogenic progesterone which makes it perfect) so I've taken it before at a very low dose. If I can get hold of the one marketed at men the dose is huge so I can cut the tablets up and make the pack go further. I had some weird cramps and my legs and back were really stiff today like the mid-cycle syptoms I used to get when off the pill. I think this may either be the PM causing a follicle to release and messing with my PCO or the fact that I walked quite a long way in the rain yesterday afternoon - why is it never clear cut?!



Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Moon (or others) - NBE, what are we actually hoping to achieve hormonally?
October 17 2008, 7:33 PM

P.S. I'd thought of vitex but isn't that balancing rather than just progesteronic? You might take the vitex for 2 weeks and it just deletes the effect of what you took in the other 2 weeks!



Linn
(Login linn7880)
Re: Moon (or others) - NBE, what are we actually hoping to achieve hormonally?
October 18 2008, 11:51 AM

In easy words is'nt it to mimic puberty and pragnancy at the same time..?
But I guess you wanted it more scientific ..



Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Moon (or others) - NBE, what are we actually hoping to achieve hormonally?
October 18 2008, 7:41 PM

The hormonal effects during puberty and pregnancy are very different, I think mimicking pregnancy will enlarge the lobes but probably cannot be maintained longterm (either massage is too time consuming or elevated prolactin is dangerous) but I think instinctively that mimicking puberty is a better bet - hope so anyway as I'm getting acne!

[admin]

Things that prevent NBE from working
December 17 2006 at 5:52 PM waxingmoon (Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER

This is going to be a long post (how unlike me, ha ha), so my appologies. One of the most frequent topics I read on here is how someone's program is not working for them. Many seem to have very little results and some give up entirely. Some of my research has shed some light on why NBE may not work. I hope you find this useful.

NBE is about creating a hormonal effect to stimulate breast growth. Whether through massage, herbs, natural hormones, foods or hyponosis, the process used enhances the bodies ability to create hormones.

Hormones are chemical messengers. In NBE we want those chemicals to tell our bodies to grow breasts. Here is how things can go wrong:

1. The message may not get to where it needs to go. (the hormone is unable to pass into the cell - may be due to nutritional concerns or hormone imbalance)

2. The message gets to where it should be, but there is not a reciever. (the hormone gets to the cell, but the special receptor for that hormone is missing - this may be genetic)

3. The message gets to where it's going, but the receiver is already occupied. (some hormones compete with each other for receptor sites, ie: cortisol & progesterone, synthetic progesterone & natural progesterone, phytoestrogens & natural estrogens)

4. The message gets to where its going and the receiver gets the message, but the action created was not the intended reaction. (genetic glitches)

5. The message is delayed or blocked. (enzymes, vitamins, minerals and other nutrients were not available which impaired hormone function)

6. The message is inhibited. (nutritional imbalances or environmental factors may inhibit optimal response, ie: excess iron = enzyme malfunction, too much stress = too much cortisol, plastics & pesticides = too much artificial estrogen)

7. The message is too loud or too soft. (the amount of hormone alters the effect of the message, ie: too many phytoestrogens occupy the estrogen receptors thus lowering the bodies natural estrogen and increasing estrogen deficiency symptoms; too much progesterone exhausts receptors and reduces their sensitivity so benefits are lost)

Of all 7 reasons listed, only two (#2 and #4) are genetic. This means there is a lot we can do to help ourselves.

1) Eat a more nutritious diet and supplement with vitamins, minerals and protein needed for optimum NBE.

2) Reduce sugars and processed carbohydrates and caffeine.

3) Reduce stress through better sleep, proper nutrition, exercise and managing stressful relationships.

4) Reduce exposure to plastics, pesticides, antibiotic and hormone fed meats, solvents and synthetic hormones.

5) Start with small dosages and work up to levels that give you a desired effect. Use the minimal amount necessary to achieve your effect.

6) Resolve hormone imbalances. It is not a one size fits all solution. To achieve NBE you must use the supplements that suit your unique situation.

7) Study, study, study... keep good notes and records. Make a journal of your work. You alone know yourself. No one can do this part for you. We can only share what it is like for us.

8) Have patience. Even the most perfect plan will take time to show results. Quick results don't always last. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither are boobs.


This is far from a complete list. Most of this I have learned from Dr. John Lee. Much of this has been from all of your thoughtful posts. I hope this can be a guide for those who are getting poor results or are losing hope. You can make a difference.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon




bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: Things that prevent NBE from working
December 17 2006, 6:22 PM

i'm worried about the #2 and #4 , how could i tell?



jellyboobs
(Login jellyboobs)
EVE MEMBERS
awesome !!!
December 17 2006, 6:24 PM

great work waxing moon I think this would be good to post in the newbis section too !!! thankyou for all the hard work love jelly....



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Things that prevent NBE from working
December 17 2006, 6:27 PM

One very importnat thing you didn't mention is blood circulation - poor blood circulation will virtually prevent NBE.

Also I'm more inclined to believe that caffeine doesn't really harm NBE progress, if not in excessive quantities of course and if you drink it at least an hour before/after taking herbs.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Things that prevent NBE from working
December 17 2006, 6:32 PM

Bonnette,
Don't worry about #2 or #4, that's the point. If it is true that you have a genetic problem that NBE can't solve then your worry will not help. If you don't have a genetic problem, then your worry is unfounded and will actually add to your stress, thus reducing your NBE.

The odds are in your favor that you can do something about your breasts. Instead of focusing on something you can't control, focus on all the things you can control. Much of change is having the right attitude. Just keep repeating to yourself 'I think I can... I think I can...'. As lame as that sounds, affirmations (postitive statements) really do work.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Things that prevent NBE from working
December 17 2006, 6:38 PM

Thanks for the suggestion Jelly, I posted this in the newbie section.

Moon,
Yes, circulation is key. Exercise and hormone balance will improve blood flow, and if that is not enough, supplements to improve circulation will definitely improve NBE. If those messengers get caught in sluggish circulation, they can't get to where they are going.





organic angel
(Login organic_angel)
Re: Things that prevent NBE from working
December 19 2006, 6:01 AM

Moon: Here's some thoughts about caffiene. I also agree that a minimal amount of caffiene shouldn't be harmful or negate nbe results. 1-2 cups/daily should have no harmful affects. HOWEVER....you should always consume your pills/supplements 1-2 hrs after caffiene, and not consume large amounts of caffiene either. Large amounts of caffiene spike your cortisol and insulin, which puts all your hormones out of sync.

As for circulation, I agree that it is important. I think that is why body temp is such a large factor for those of us taking BO, and why massage and heat are always a great add-on to any routine. Good circulation permits passage of supplements into our cells, as well as the removal of toxins.

Boobie Love My Organic Beauties



boobins
(Login boobins)
no more diet coke...
December 19 2006, 6:32 AM

so i have been reading this forum for maybe a month, and now its an addiction for me. lol. I started reading this and told myself I couldnt stop drinking diet coke. that was the only thing besides smoking I wasnt willing to change. I love that stuff,I drink it like its the air I breathe. well after reading this and the last post above mine. I am forsure gonna limit myself to only two diet cokes, this is coming from someone who drinks st least a six pack a day. told you guys, i love this stuff. anyway, I think water is gonna have to be my best friend but after I have big boobies I will beable to drink all the diet coke I want



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Things that prevent NBE from working
December 20 2006, 9:22 AM

So I was worried about #2 as well, but then I started thinking - is it even possible to not have hormone receptors on breast cells at all? If that was the case, the boobs would never grow a cell, but if they grew during puberty at least a little, those receptors must be present.



Henri
(Login henriettahippo)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Things that prevent NBE from working
December 20 2006, 12:00 PM

I sometimes wonder if I suffer from #4 ~ the message gets there, but doesn't do what its supposed to do :-)

This info is great ~ thanks for taking the time to post it.