[Isabelle]

Thank you lled34aa,

Yes, I'm really trying to cut supplements, and switch to good dietary sources instead. Only, there's so much to learn... but anyway, that's time spent only once. Without thinking, I used to assume a stop at the drugstore and just buying the supplement saved time

I don't know whether testosterone stops NBE. Actually, the body makes estrogen from testosterone, so an increase in testosterone might be a necessary intermediate step in NBE. What I want to watch out for, is that my body will also convert the testosterone increase into more dihydrotestosterone:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8422&pid=29052&highlight=signs#pid29052
If I break out, I want to try a stronger anti-androgen first. If that doesn't help, oats go out. If necessary, maca too. I wish there was a butt herb that is not an androgen

Sorry to read progesterone timing is still causing trouble. Have you used some of these graphs people posted?
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7828&pid=27792&highlight=graph#pid27792
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7351&pid=22066&highlight=graph#pid22066
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7251&pid=25872&highlight=charting#pid25872
You are right: since women grow between day 15 and day 5, progesterone must be involved. I also haven't figured out why male NBEers like red clover so much.

I know it's only one publication, but these tables helped me a lot in understanding my experiences:
http://www.cancersupportivecare.com/estr...tml#table3
The left table lists phyto-estrogens, the right one phyto-progestins. For my body, the numbers in both tables are on par, since both are 3 for red clover, and I didn't notice either estrogen or progestin dominance when I tried red clover. Then the net effect for licorice is slightly estrogenic, and fennel is progestinic: it's not even in the top 12 of phyto-estrogens. In NBE, its main effect is stimulating the secretion of prolactin. Also note in the table on the right that, when not counting the traditional abortion herbs, the strongest phyto-progestins are common kitchen herbs. Keeping them out of your diet in the first half of your cycle may not be easy. Verbena is also an interesting one. It's in Wonderup.

Happy to read 1/2 tsp MSM works so well for you. Which one are you using? I seriously considered buying one too, but for a start, I'm building it from the ground up: first silicic acid and protein. If that doesn't work, I'll add MSM. Note that GLA is a precursor to prostaglandins. They should help for lashes too.

Always happy to help with good information. I learn a lot from your posts too. And your questions prove that you have a very hygienic thinking style: I mean taking nothing for granted except solid proof. I am a scientist (not medical), but I had a chinese wall experience when I discovered this forum a month ago. I thought I had read everything science learned about NBE in ten years. But this forum learns soo much faster. And it's an approach like yours that helps it ahead: always counting both the good and the bad experiences. Keep going

[Isabelle]

Thought I'd just share this for input, because I'm confused

I was looking for people who have experience with a similar program, and found this:
http://www.vitalitymagazine.com/article/...pplements/
How can an NBE program be so much like a "reproductive health" program? Is it just me, coincidence, or some kind of logic?

There are many statements in the article that I would double check first, but one looks interesting: is maca root really a source of DHEA?

[lled34aa]

is PM considered a xenoestrogen? i know it is not bio-identical to the estrogen produced in our own bodies. according to that article, xenoestrogen decreases libido. but ever since starting NBE, i've been having much higher sex drive.

[Isabelle]

Ha lled,

That's good news

I would't consider PM a xenoestrogen. Those are synthetic chemicals that were suspected of decreasing sperm count and quality, 15 years ago. I never read a conclusion, I mean really solid research showing what the real cause was, after all was said and done.

But then, many men on this forum report not staying Fully Functional for long on PM. So for all practical purposes, you could call it a xenoestrogen That does not mean it will decrease your sex drive, though. Wahaika explained in his January 21, 2004 post in this thread why testosterone should increase in NBE, certainly if it's working:
http://beboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=3029
The short version is that estrogen is made from testosterone. So the increase in estrogen that causes NBE is always the result of higher testosterone. You notice the testosterone increase itself only in higher sex drive, more energy, and more upbeat mood. But more testosterone will also make more DHT. DHT is the cause of breakouts, hair loss, facial and body hair, etc.

Just assume maca increases DHEA, as I posted above. Then, following the arrow diagram in Wahaika's post, you will have more progesterone, testosterone, DHT and estrogen. The estrogen goes into negative feedback, and stops NBE. DHT breaks you out. Progesterone will postpone your period. Testosterone gives you good energy and sex drive. PM can trigger negative feedback at low doses:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...4104001667

Wahaika's simplified scheme helps to memorize the overall picture, but it does not explain everything you reported in your program thread. For instance, why do you stall completely on PC, while other women don't. The most helpful map of the endocrine system I have found is this one. It beats me why it's on a reli site, and what all the colors are for:
http://healyourselfathomefl.health.offic...erone.aspx
Follow the arrows, and you see that additional progesterone can also be converted to estrogen. Scroll a few pages down, and you see how the negative feedback system works: too high estrogen decreases LH, which shuts down estrogen production. It also says somewhere there that progesterone also increases sex drive.

What to do? You could try Wahaika's stall test. If it shows you are stalled, lower maca and PM. But you may have to break before growth really takes off. Personally, I think it'd be a shame to stop while your system is firing on all cylinders. Look at the arrows: even if your body's own estrogen production is stalled, you could still make it all from the DHEA from maca. All you need then is a progesterone blocker, and Wahaika suggests two: oregano and damiana. Don't worry about the progestinic effect of oregano and damiana themselves: since they block the route from DHEA to progesterone, the net effect will probably be a decrease in progesterone.

Once the roads to progesterone and DHT are blocked (DHT by a good antiandrogen), you could pump high doses of maca into the system: all of it will end up as estrogen. I know only one example of too much maca: jhajha21 on pages 16, 17, and 22 of this thread:
http://forum.blackhairmedia.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=148128&PN=16&title=the-maca-root-users

Get ready for a wild ride

[Isabelle]

I checked the safety of my program herbs here:
"Medication safety in pregnancy and breastfeeding":
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihJqPs7Ys_4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=medication+safety+in+pregnancy+and+breastfeeding&hl=en&ei=m1EMTtHCEYyfOteH_KgL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Herbs are in chapter 19 (p. 249), chapter 20 (p.279) is all about folic acid.
This is what I learned checking the herbs in my program:
Glucosamine can interfere with glucose metabolism and result in insulin resistance. I was still taking it for skin, but stop now.
The flax (linseed) must be soaked in water before eating.
FG is OK for me, but is an uterine stimulant.
Licorice dosage should not be too high.

[Isabelle]

Today I was at www.jacob-hooy.nl in Amsterdam to pick up 200 g of goat's rue for € 6.50. This herb can help against insulin resistance, and since yesterday, I know my taking glucosamine for three years could have made me insulin resistant. So now I may need goat's rue more than ever, or not at all, because I stopped the glucosamine yesterday. Only time will tell.

I started taking glucosamine years ago, after I read on Leslie Baumann's dermatology blog it's good for skin:
http://health.yahoo.net/experts/skintype...ie-baumann
Doing a routine safety check on my program yesterday, I found the warning that glucosamine may trigger insulin resistance. This was not only a humbling experience (why didn't I see that in three years!?), but it changes everything.

The main reason why I decided to take up NBE more seriously a month ago was that I didn't like the amount of abdominal fat I have accumulated in the last two years or so. I know that is not unusual for a man my age, but I was alarmed by how fast I changed.

I wasn't expecting much from cutting calories, or from the gym: those only tell your body how much fat it will store, not where to store it. But my NBE has been very successful over the years, so I opted for that, and decided to add maca root. I figured I would be able to move fat to my breasts and my butt, so less would be left around my waist.

The idea left an uneasy feeling about why the fat is around my waist in the first place. I never had this in my whole life. Deep down, I knew I was doing it myself in some way, but I couldn't figure out how. I also didn't like what it meant: abdominal fat is associated with insulin resistance and diabetes, and a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Also, it makes NBE more difficult, since NBE only takes off at 22 % body fat. So, does a male NBEer have to store 22% fat in a pot belly first, before trying to move it all to his breasts in three months Doesn't make sense

So now it becomes clear that the real reason for the abdominal fat may have been the glucosamine. So I stopped it, and will use the measuring tape around my waist for a while. If it doesn't improve, it may still mean the insulin resistance may have become permanent, so I'll try goat's rue, maybe nigella sativa or fenugreek. I was planning to take my first teaspoon of hops on July 5th, but it looks like I may be missing out on an entire NBE season

[Isabelle]

MoK217 stopped growing on flaxseed oil:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7876&pid=30134&highlight=%22flaxseed+oil%22#pid30134
and Wahaika explained in this thread how this happens:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7774&pid=25768&highlight=Q10#pid25768
If the oil is not cold pressed, or if the whole seeds are used, there are lignans in it, and they are anti-aromatase. There is also other research on lignans decreasing IGF1, and changing the metabolism of estrogen. So I decided to use my broken flaxseeds during the last days of the break. I made auntie Isabelle's old rice porridge and added oat flakes and the broken brown flaxseeds. I ate about 50 grams worth of seeds this afternoon, and suddenly there's more to grab

So I started reading again More recent research has shown that lignan affinity for aromatase is only 1/75-1/300 of the affinity of testosterone:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...609390022O
Moreover, pumpkin seeds and olive oil contain lignans too:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=5278&highlight=lignan
So lignans are certainly not all bad in all cases. Maybe the people using the oil just take too much. Linseed is 20% oil, so they have to take 5 times less than the amount of powder Eve M used.
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8631

Anyway, I'll just finish the rice porridge tomorrow, and see what happens. Who else grew on flaxseeds?

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle,

First I want to say I have been keeping up with this thread on reading it..just too tired to reply lately..and had no computer for the past week which was ok..nice and relaxing..anyway I reread the post above the last about glucosamine, well when I read it the first time and this happens alot with me, I read as glucose something or another meaning related to medicine for a diabetic..so when I was reading again I was like WHAT glucosamine that is for joints..I was thinking of taking some earlier today but not now...anyway.. oh and the flax thingy..oh so confusing...grrrrrrrrrr...keep up the interesting info

[Isabelle]

Thanks, Susan,

and yes, many people take glucosamine for their joints, but most of them are 30 years older than we are

But at the time I started taking it, I felt something in my right knee, and that stopped, after a while. I also stopped doing too many squats and lunges, driving for hours on end through congested traffic, and sitting on my right heel while unloading the washing machine. So I don't know if it was really the glucosamine that did it. See what happens after stopping.

[beachbumbythesea]

How funny my right knee too..I have to do the squats and lunges for the butt an hams..then I was just ready to do leg curls and look up at the computer and seen a reply so I had to read it..haha..good thing cause if your doing those exercises too for hamstring and butt and like me having the knee thing plus I am having such a hard time hitting those muscles I have to use alot of weight which in turn is making my quads bigger instead so I thought I will put my ankle weights on lay on my stomach and to leg curls to focous on those muscle that way instead and see what happens....I have the pancake look in the upper part of my hams..butt is ok but needs to be more like J lo and Haley's..