[Lotus]

My dearest Zara, 

Lol, I did understand your points, did you not understand mine?. With all ignorance aside, my views on measuring global cultural beauty standards are a product in futility. You see, while you analyze such things (beauty standards) in sociology, I do so in scientific methodology, maybe that's not so different though. 

Looking at cultures (past and present) the sex appeal of breasts has been exploited and overemphasized by men (for the most part), possibly as far back as primates, lol. In other words, unrealistic beauty standards are a product of our own making, and therein lays the futility....that's not to say having a debate about cultural (call it) misrepresentations, insecurities, or bias is any less important. I'm old school, lol...... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

I addressed the op's query (and in part, yours) which is why I attached the post from my friend, which I'll point out again.

Only 25% to 35% of the U.S. Caucasian population is capable of converting daidzein to equol, whereas people in high soy consumption areas of Asia have rates closer to 40% to 60%. There is some evidence that Hispanic or Latino women are also more likely to be equol producers. Approximately 80% to 90% of people harbor the bacteria required to produce ODMA. The frequency of equol producers in one study of vegetarians was found to be 59%.

 Pointing out that Asians consume more soy than any other country and therefore should be expected to have bigger breasts, is not taking into consideration how soy is consumed within a diet, nor how that relates to a functioning NBE program. 

As noted, Hispanic, Latino and Vegetarians have similar metabolism of soy as some asian countries...(link in provided above). Additionally, it appears converting equol in gut metabolism protects against breast cancer (via ERβ...estrogen receptor beta).

Equol has been shown to have the strongest binding affinities and estrogenic activities (especially for ERβ) among the daidzin metabolites and has been hypothesized to be largely responsible for the estrogen-like activities of soy and its isoflavones. However, there is a great deal of variation among individuals in the metabolism of genistin and daidzin, which appears to be dependent partly on environmental factors, including other components of the diet, and partly on genetic factors.

[---]

Lotus,

Oh, I'm so sorry for the misunderstanding and assuming that you didn't understand my point. I truly apologize! I actually did read a similar study a while ago (if not the exact same one), when I first started NBE, I think MissEllen linked it and then I also did some research on it as well. I even reread what you posted when you linked it. But I assure you, I fully do understand your point about the differences within a population in concerns with NBE, and thank you so much for pointing that out on here. 

I agree with everything you said and you made some excellent points. My feelings are the same that "measuring global cultural beauty standards really are a product in futility", especially because of how separate and unique, and widely varied those constructs are from destination to destination. I'm also so glad you mentioned the exploitation of the female body and also the unrealistic beauty standards, that is a great topic on its own! And I fully believe that sociology and scientific methodology goes hand in hand, after all, sociologists and anthropologists do use scientific methodology in their research and study too. 

Something I want to clarify is I know "ignorance" can be such a trigger word, but when I use it, I don't mean it with the negative connotations that are often associated with it. I'm ignorant on so many things, we all are, so when I say "ignorance" I'm not saying that as an insult, and I hope no one here takes it as such. 

I really do believe that if we had a conversation of this in person, we would reach the same destination. I even think we are on the same page now, I just think we are approaching it from different angles, which I love by the way, because it gives me a fresh perspective. I love talks like that! I guess I was just more so warning about making encompassing generalizations of cultures while trying to compare them with an ethnocentric mindset, which as you and I agree, really is futile. 

Thanks for lending your opinion on this!! 


Xoxo


P.S. Ella, I really am sorry that I've hijacked your thread on this. That wasn't my intent. I'm not sure if you understand the points I was trying to make, but I just want to again say that it was not an attack on you, and I'm so sorry you took it as such. I really was just trying to add a new perspective to the conversation, while trying to also incorporate my own opinions as I long-windedly answered your question, lol.

[Panharith]

I will refer only to India because that's where I have some idea. Average breast size as the words say is average. India with however rich and interesting culture has one of highest poverty rates how it affect breast? Try to feed your family with less than 2$ a day. Around 31% of Indians live under this value and up to 70% with not much more. So with 70% of country not getting proper food how can they grow anything healthy?70% od poor people will affect this average thing greatly. Fenugreek will only give signal to grow it doesn't provide building blocks. On this forum we had many cases of underweight girls which couldn't grow till they started eating proper.




Goldenslot

[Cely]

I also read somewhere that women from Nordic countries have the biggest breasts. And German women tend to have bigger boobs (maybe it's the potatoes, carbs, sausages...and beer...the hops in beer more precisely!).

I used to drink more beer than water, when I drunk so much beer I was so fat but with an AA.

[biggiwant]

I didn't initially want to write this post, but after long and hard contemplation, I realize I just can't hold my tongue on this topic, and I feel the need to point some things out. But before I get into what I want to say, I just want to state that I don't write any of this in a mean spirit, so I hope no one takes it as such, especially Ella!! 

Ella, I understand that you are very biased against certain herbs used for NBE and you certainly have great reasons to be due to your individual sensitivities and also personal convictions, so I'm not going to waste my time, neither yours, in trying to pull you aboard the herbal bandwagon. I think your personal choices are your own, and everyone should want to research, form their own opinions, and then choose their own NBE path because as we all know, not everything works for everyone. 

With that said, besides the clear differences in wealth and poverty between certain countries which will indeed effect something like breast growth, most of everyone is also forgetting the differences and implications that cultures have on such things as these. A study of anthropology would showcase this immediately: Different cultures have different perceptions of beauty and it's important not to view these things with an ethnocentric mindset. For instance, I was talking to my friend once about how bras have actually been studied to contribute to long term breast sag. She immediately and rather ignorantly pointed out that people in African countries are often depicted with long saggy breasts and they don't seem to wear bras. SIGH. What she forgets is that beauty standards are different there and culture plays a huge part in these things. If you're interested, I'll point you to an excellent article that explains why cross-cultural beauty examinations are ignorant and insensitive on this bra debate topic: http://www.thelingerieaddict.com/2013/11...gging.html If you read the article, you'll see that many of those points can also be applied to this line of thinking posed on this thread. I'm not saying this to demean this thread or as a personal attack on you, Ella, so I hope you don't take it that way at all, but I do say this to point out some apparent ignorance (and I'm not saying that meanly, I'm saying this with literal meaning. We are all ignorant on some level, after all). 

So going back, as a person who is from a multicultural family, and who was raised on solely an Asian diet, I can say that while Asians do tend to eat more soy products than Americans, we are not sitting around gorging ourselves on tofu, especially not with any mind to grow our breasts. Pointing out that Asians consume more soy than any other country and therefore should be expected to have bigger breasts, is not taking into consideration how soy is consumed within a diet, nor how that relates to a functioning NBE program. I'm pretty certain the same could be said for the other countries that you mentioned, as well. Considering that Americans don't tend to eat soy at all or in rather low quantities, an Asian who ate soy 2 to 3 times in a week would largely be considered as more than most average Americans, but is that to say that it is enough to grow breasts and is it logical to compare that to an NBE program? 

Going back to specifically culture, to say or even expect that women from these countries should have bigger breasts is to normalize the Western standard of beauty while demeaning and making inferior these countries own personal perceptions of beauty. Yes, women in America might be high on the list for a country with bigger breasts BUT that is largely due to our countries standard of beauty that advertises and promote bigger breasts on women, which in turn: makes women want their breasts bigger. So women will do things such as NBE or get breast implants or fat transfers or whatever they can do to increase their bust size, and this is something that will inflate the average size of women's breast in America as well as other countries. Some of these countries do not put as much emphasis on bigger breasts on a woman as a standard of beauty, and in a lot of Asian countries, in particular, smaller breasts are seen more appealing and desirable. Women in Thailand might consume more PM than women in USA but that's not to say or imply that they are doing so for bigger breasts. Also, once again consider, most American women have never heard of PM, so a woman from Thailand who drank PM tea once or twice a week would certainly be a lot more than a woman from the US might consume, but once again: is this enough to grow breasts, especially when that probably is not even their aim for consuming PM? 

Speaking of breast implants, let's talk about how that effects some of these countries with bigger breast size averages. Most, if not all, of the countries that have bigger breast sizes are on the same list as countries with most breast implants per capital (look it up!), and I should point out that the average breast sizes in different countries are not limited to just women with natural breasts. 

I hope you can see and understand how this is really futile. It would be as if I posed the question why do Americans have bigger butts compared to Asians or any other country and then trying to connect it with our diets alone while completely forgetting the differences in culture, wealth, and also standards of beauty and how that will influence women to achieve bigger butt sizes (and also the rise and desire to have Kim Kardashian butts in America, lol). 

I think that how something is consumed and not just how much, is of significant importance and relevance in terms of NBE. If I took a small amount of PM every day, let's say PM tea, should I expect my breasts to grow in a years time? I don't think that answer is a firm yes. You can theoretically take an NBE herb every day for years, but if the dosage is not high enough to actually affect hormonal changes in your body, it will more than likely have no impact in terms of breast growth (if that is even your goal). Also, committing to an NBE program (which is what we are all doing for the most part) and following it, is very different from just having something naturally be a part of your diet (which is true for many of the countries you have listed).

Lastly, I think that it's a rather moot point to compare breast sizes with certain herbs and the places they are largely consumed in because as we all know, NBE herbs work differently for different people. As an example, PM may not work for everyone, but it has been widely shown to work for a lot of women as well as men and I think that isn't something that can just be overlooked because Thailand women aren't the bustiest of women. Same goes with other herbs you may have listed. Just because the countries that most widely consume an herb isn't as well endowed as some would expect, doesn't render the NBE success stories we have on this forum as well as on other forums worthless. So the question here isn't "Why do women try *fill in the blank* for breast growth when it doesn't work for women who consume it largely in their native country as part of their diet?" because clearly it does work for some people who are specifically on an NBE program, and as I've already mentioned, dosages matter when taking herbs. High dosages doesn't mean more effective, and low dosages never will be effective. High dosages as well as not cycling seem to be the main culprit for the ugly side effects of some herbs, and that is rather common knowledge here. Personally, I have built a considerably large list of my own favorite PM success stories, of women who have kept their growth (and have stated so), so that's not a question either. But I do think stopping an NBE herbal program too soon can result in a loss of growth, just like with Noogleberry, and also, everyone is different so how a herb effects someone long term is of course going to be varied (definitely worth repeating). 

I know I've probably written this out rather bluntly, but I assure you that I do so with no ill-spirit, but only to inform and illuminate some of the flaws in your logic as well as the ignorance in your questionings. I just hope that you don't take any offense, because truly that is not my intentions nor desire, but I do hope that you try to understand my points and where I'm coming from in saying all this.


Xoxo

As I am an asia person,(I'm from South Korea) I agree with you.
many koreans often eat soy sauce as a spice( 4-5 days in a week) but average size is A CUP.
korean people matter "face or skin" than breast or butt.
Of course, lately, Many korean girls want to have big breast.

eating pattern also must be considered.
Culture can not be ignored either.

[Cely]

Asian people are also skinnier than others. It’s difficult to have big boobs on a skinny body. 
Also culture is important, for example, in my country big boobs are a must, so I feel weird with my flat chest.

Diet is important but genetics (hormones) are more important, If iStart to eat like an Asian, my body won’t turn into an Asian type.